external vs internal containment

[strollingbones]

external refers to laws, police, governments, peer groups......the things outside of you that keep you from being evil

internal refers to the self......to your spirit....

so the question is....do you do things due to internal or external containment....

 

[Compost]

I obey external things like Stop signs not to avoid being evil but to avoid crashing into another person. As for avoiding evil inclinations within myself, I look to God for guidance and strength.

 

[Unkotare]

Clenching real hard vs keeping the windows rolled up.

 

[Igrok_]

I think the law came in use when people started to feel lack of internal containment. The better people are the less they need law. And absolutely depraved society can only be ruled by totalitarian goverment.

 

[Searcher44]

external refers to laws, police, governments, peer groups......the things outside of you that keep you from being evil

internal refers to the self......to your spirit....

so the question is....do you do things due to internal or external containment....

I'd like to think I don't need external or internal forces to keep me from wandering down an "evil" path. That's a whole other universe than jaywalking or borrowing the neighbors paper before he's read it. (hey I always return it in good shape, him none the wiser I think - I rise early.) I admit though there have been times...like when the driver of that Charger thought he needed two parking spaces for his baby and I had to park in the next county, it was probably both external and internal censure that kept me from keying that sob's expensive candy-apple paint job.

 

[Bonzi]

The Christian viewpoint is very different from this perspective.

Although the laws of man can certainly be beneficial for keeping society in some semblance of order, man is not the rule setter for what is good or evil, because man is flawed and fallible - and incapable of NOT sinning (which, is in and of itself, evil).

So, relying on peers and lawmakers to be 'good' (or, not evil) is not how a Christian would live their life.

If it came between God's law and Man's law and they contradicted each other, God's law would prevail.

This is being said objectively. I do not claim to live a Godly or Christian-like life, even though I have claimed to be a Christian. Just wanted to throw that disclaimer out there...(as a confession)

 

[Iceweasel]

The Christian viewpoint is very different from this perspective.

Although the laws of man can certainly be beneficial for keeping society in some semblance of order, man is not the rule setter for what is good or evil, because man is flawed and fallible - and incapable of NOT sinning (which, is in and of itself, evil).

So, relying on peers and lawmakers to be 'good' (or, not evil) is not how a Christian would live their life.

If it came between God's law and Man's law and they contradicted each other, God's law would prevail.

This is being said objectively. I do not claim to live a Godly or Christian-like life, even though I have claimed to be a Christian. Just wanted to throw that disclaimer out there...(as a confession)

Well, no. Man's law would prevail because men have guns and jails. Christians very much do pick and choose what they will adhere to and what they want others to adhere to, and it isn't always consistent. No internal discipline is consistent when it is wide open to interpretation and the mood at the moment, especially know there's always a 'get out of jail free' card you can whip out anytime. There have been many times I was very tempted to refuse doing business with Christians, even when I was one.

 

[Bonzi]

The Christian viewpoint is very different from this perspective.

Although the laws of man can certainly be beneficial for keeping society in some semblance of order, man is not the rule setter for what is good or evil, because man is flawed and fallible - and incapable of NOT sinning (which, is in and of itself, evil).

So, relying on peers and lawmakers to be 'good' (or, not evil) is not how a Christian would live their life.

If it came between God's law and Man's law and they contradicted each other, God's law would prevail.

This is being said objectively. I do not claim to live a Godly or Christian-like life, even though I have claimed to be a Christian. Just wanted to throw that disclaimer out there...(as a confession)

Well, no. Man's law would prevail because men have guns and jails. Christians very much do pick and choose what they will adhere to and what they want others to adhere to, and it isn't always consistent. No internal discipline is consistent when it is wide open to interpretation and the mood at the moment, especially know there's always a 'get out of jail free' card you can whip out anytime. There have been many times I was very tempted to refuse doing business with Christians, even when I was one.

The Christian, if they disobeyed a law the put them in jail because it was contrary to God’s word, in their mind, they are still using their “internal” moral code, and, just because they have to suffer a consequence of breaking man’s law, does not mean it “prevails” – I might do something that I feel is right and get killed for it, but that doesn’t mean the “killer” prevails necessarily…….

 

[Iceweasel]

The Christian, if they disobeyed a law the put them in jail because it was contrary to God’s word, in their mind, they are still using their “internal” moral code, and, just because they have to suffer a consequence of breaking man’s law, does not mean it “prevails” – I might do something that I feel is right and get killed for it, but that doesn’t mean the “killer” prevails necessarily…….

Well, it's prevailing in this reality. That's what I mean. Beliefs don't alter reality.

 

[Bonzi]

The Christian, if they disobeyed a law the put them in jail because it was contrary to God’s word, in their mind, they are still using their “internal” moral code, and, just because they have to suffer a consequence of breaking man’s law, does not mean it “prevails” – I might do something that I feel is right and get killed for it, but that doesn’t mean the “killer” prevails necessarily…….

Well, it's prevailing in this reality. That's what I mean. Beliefs don't alter reality.

But for a Christian, God is the only meaningful reality.
That's why it is impossible for an atheist to have any fruitful discussion with a true Christian.
They can not even agree on what is "reality".

 

[Iceweasel]

The Christian, if they disobeyed a law the put them in jail because it was contrary to God’s word, in their mind, they are still using their “internal” moral code, and, just because they have to suffer a consequence of breaking man’s law, does not mean it “prevails” – I might do something that I feel is right and get killed for it, but that doesn’t mean the “killer” prevails necessarily…….

Well, it's prevailing in this reality. That's what I mean. Beliefs don't alter reality.

But for a Christian, God is the only meaningful reality. That's why it is impossible for an atheist to have any fruitful discussion with a true Christian.
They can not even agree on what is "reality".

Reality doesn't care what people think. No, God isn't the only reality for a Christian, they live and breath it like everybody else. I don't know how atheism comes into play here?

 

[Bonzi]

The Christian, if they disobeyed a law the put them in jail because it was contrary to God’s word, in their mind, they are still using their “internal” moral code, and, just because they have to suffer a consequence of breaking man’s law, does not mean it “prevails” – I might do something that I feel is right and get killed for it, but that doesn’t mean the “killer” prevails necessarily…….

Well, it's prevailing in this reality. That's what I mean. Beliefs don't alter reality.

But for a Christian, God is the only meaningful reality. That's why it is impossible for an atheist to have any fruitful discussion with a true Christian.
They can not even agree on what is "reality".

Reality doesn't care what people think. No, God isn't the only reality for a Christian, they live and breath it like everybody else. I don't know how atheism comes into play here?

You said beliefs don't alter reality. Some beliefs ARE reality.
Unless you can prove otherwise (there is the burden of proof argument, which I have too much of a headache and probably not the patience to go into .....)

Of course we live in the world, but to a Christian, everything in the world is based on the existence of God who created the world and all that is in it.

Any atheist doesn't even consider God. They don't believe.
Of course, there are the multitude of others that have their own "version" of God they believe in, or, Creator if you rather....

 

[Iceweasel]

You said beliefs don't alter reality. Some beliefs ARE reality.
Unless you can prove otherwise (there is the burden of proof argument, which I have too much of a headache and probably not the patience to go into .....)

Of course we live in the world, but to a Christian, everything in the world is based on the existence of God who created the world and all that is in it.

Any atheist doesn't even consider God. They don't believe.
Of course, there are the multitude of others that have their own "version" of God they believe in, or, Creator if you rather....

No, beliefs are not reality. You can't will a reality into being, you can only fool yourself. Atheists have a belief too, they just don't want to admit it. I don't believe any man made versions of God. I don't know and have no problem being honest about it. Christians claim their beliefs are fact but it's a faith. That's the main problem with it, religion forces you to be dishonest with yourself.

 

[Moonglow]

The Christian, if they disobeyed a law the put them in jail because it was contrary to God’s word, in their mind, they are still using their “internal” moral code, and, just because they have to suffer a consequence of breaking man’s law, does not mean it “prevails” – I might do something that I feel is right and get killed for it, but that doesn’t mean the “killer” prevails necessarily…….

Well, it's prevailing in this reality. That's what I mean. Beliefs don't alter reality.

But for a Christian, God is the only meaningful reality.
That's why it is impossible for an atheist to have any fruitful discussion with a true Christian.
They can not even agree on what is "reality".

Reality is subjective to the perception of the individual...

Hyphenated religious Americans feel the need to deny that which their religion ask of them, but still want to wear the name tag on the shirt..

 

[Bonzi]

You said beliefs don't alter reality. Some beliefs ARE reality.
Unless you can prove otherwise (there is the burden of proof argument, which I have too much of a headache and probably not the patience to go into .....)

Of course we live in the world, but to a Christian, everything in the world is based on the existence of God who created the world and all that is in it.

Any atheist doesn't even consider God. They don't believe.
Of course, there are the multitude of others that have their own "version" of God they believe in, or, Creator if you rather....

No, beliefs are not reality. You can't will a reality into being, you can only fool yourself. Atheists have a belief too, they just don't want to admit it. I don't believe any man made versions of God. I don't know and have no problem being honest about it. Christians claim their beliefs are fact but it's a faith. That's the main problem with it, religion forces you to be dishonest with yourself.

That, in and of itself, is an opinion.
Depth of though and openness of mind will reveal that anything is possible and we are limited in our comprehension.

That any person could be right or wrong, and, that we are all fallible and no one (no human being) knows any absolute truth - unless the One that DOES - the One that has omniscience/omnipotence and is omnipresent - reveals it to them.

 

[Bonzi]

The Christian, if they disobeyed a law the put them in jail because it was contrary to God’s word, in their mind, they are still using their “internal” moral code, and, just because they have to suffer a consequence of breaking man’s law, does not mean it “prevails” – I might do something that I feel is right and get killed for it, but that doesn’t mean the “killer” prevails necessarily…….

Well, it's prevailing in this reality. That's what I mean. Beliefs don't alter reality.

But for a Christian, God is the only meaningful reality.
That's why it is impossible for an atheist to have any fruitful discussion with a true Christian.
They can not even agree on what is "reality".

Reality is subjective to the perception of the individual...

Hyphenated religious Americans feel the need to deny that which their religion ask of them, but still want to wear the name tag on the shirt..

over-generalizing.... and severely closed-minded statement

 

[Iceweasel]

You said beliefs don't alter reality. Some beliefs ARE reality.
Unless you can prove otherwise (there is the burden of proof argument, which I have too much of a headache and probably not the patience to go into .....)

Of course we live in the world, but to a Christian, everything in the world is based on the existence of God who created the world and all that is in it.

Any atheist doesn't even consider God. They don't believe.
Of course, there are the multitude of others that have their own "version" of God they believe in, or, Creator if you rather....

No, beliefs are not reality. You can't will a reality into being, you can only fool yourself. Atheists have a belief too, they just don't want to admit it. I don't believe any man made versions of God. I don't know and have no problem being honest about it. Christians claim their beliefs are fact but it's a faith. That's the main problem with it, religion forces you to be dishonest with yourself.

That, in and of itself, is an opinion.
Depth of though and openness of mind will reveal that anything is possible and we are limited in our comprehension.

That any person could be right or wrong, and, that we are all fallible and no one (no human being) knows any absolute truth - unless the One that DOES - the One that has omniscience/omnipotence and is omnipresent - reveals it to them.

.....OR....they can be honest and say they do not know when they truly do not know. Is Christianity a faith or a fact?

 

[Bonzi]

You said beliefs don't alter reality. Some beliefs ARE reality.
Unless you can prove otherwise (there is the burden of proof argument, which I have too much of a headache and probably not the patience to go into .....)

Of course we live in the world, but to a Christian, everything in the world is based on the existence of God who created the world and all that is in it.

Any atheist doesn't even consider God. They don't believe.
Of course, there are the multitude of others that have their own "version" of God they believe in, or, Creator if you rather....

No, beliefs are not reality. You can't will a reality into being, you can only fool yourself. Atheists have a belief too, they just don't want to admit it. I don't believe any man made versions of God. I don't know and have no problem being honest about it. Christians claim their beliefs are fact but it's a faith. That's the main problem with it, religion forces you to be dishonest with yourself.

That, in and of itself, is an opinion.
Depth of though and openness of mind will reveal that anything is possible and we are limited in our comprehension.

That any person could be right or wrong, and, that we are all fallible and no one (no human being) knows any absolute truth - unless the One that DOES - the One that has omniscience/omnipotence and is omnipresent - reveals it to them.

.....OR....they can be honest and say they do not know when they truly do not know. Is Christianity a faith or a fact?

To those truly committed to it, it's a fact.
They will not fall into the trap of being told the burden of proof is on them based on man's definition of proof.
They will say God gives the proof through revelation to an individual.
Those that are not given revelation are not privy to the truth - they are blinded to the truth.

 

[Bonzi]

(sorry Strollingbones, I did not mean to de-rail your thread)

 

[Iceweasel]

You said beliefs don't alter reality. Some beliefs ARE reality.
Unless you can prove otherwise (there is the burden of proof argument, which I have too much of a headache and probably not the patience to go into .....)

Of course we live in the world, but to a Christian, everything in the world is based on the existence of God who created the world and all that is in it.

Any atheist doesn't even consider God. They don't believe.
Of course, there are the multitude of others that have their own "version" of God they believe in, or, Creator if you rather....

No, beliefs are not reality. You can't will a reality into being, you can only fool yourself. Atheists have a belief too, they just don't want to admit it. I don't believe any man made versions of God. I don't know and have no problem being honest about it. Christians claim their beliefs are fact but it's a faith. That's the main problem with it, religion forces you to be dishonest with yourself.

That, in and of itself, is an opinion.
Depth of though and openness of mind will reveal that anything is possible and we are limited in our comprehension.

That any person could be right or wrong, and, that we are all fallible and no one (no human being) knows any absolute truth - unless the One that DOES - the One that has omniscience/omnipotence and is omnipresent - reveals it to them.

.....OR....they can be honest and say they do not know when they truly do not know. Is Christianity a faith or a fact?

To those truly committed to it, it's a fact.
They will not fall into the trap of being told the burden of proof is on them based on man's definition of proof.
They will say God gives the proof through revelation to an individual.
Those that are not given revelation are not privy to the truth - they are blinded to the truth.

Facts don't require faith. So if it's a fact you don't need faith. You need faith because it isn't a fact. That isn't a trap, it's the reality of the matter. Every denomination has revelations from God about the true message. So either God is fickle or beliefs don't become facts.