Evidence for Design #1 - Complexity, irreducible and otherwise

[ding]

So this 'no thing' follows your logical thinking? Here is a quick lesson in logic, something you appear to need, a burning bush is evidence for God, but no burning bush is just that, no burning bush, not evidence for no God. I was not and could not prove a negative.

And yet it is because God did not present himself to you in the form of a burning bush that you decided God did not exist. The fact that you start with the assumption that God does not exist is why you believe you cannot prove a negative. That is one nice self fulfilling prophecy you created for yourself. Too bad it is devoid of logic and reason.

 

[alang1216]

How so? I intentionally avoid using my personal witness as evidence when discussing the answers to the origin questions with people who have never given those questions any serious consideration.

You know the unknowable? You and God share the same logic? Right, you can't be serious.

 

[ding]

Unsupported leap of logic: So whatever it is that exists outside of space and time that created this universe from nothing, it can't be matter or energy but must be beyond matter and energy. Consciousness fits that bill. Word games that prove nothing and have no meaning. And how exactly do you know the universe was created from nothing?

It's not a word game at all. The only solution to the first cause conundrum is "something" which is eternal and unchanging. This "something" must in fact be no thing because things are not unchanging and cannot therefore be eternal.

 

[alang1216]

And yet it is because God did not present himself to you in the form of a burning bush that you decided God did not exist.

The bush was my way of saying I have never encountered any evidence to convince me the God did exist.

The fact that you start with the assumption that God does not exist is why you believe you cannot prove a negative. That is one nice self fulfilling prophecy you created for yourself. Too bad it is devoid of logic and reason.

No one would ever come up with the God of the Bible if they did not first assume he existed and what people said about him was valid. Illogical.

 

[alang1216]

It's not a word game at all. The only solution to the first cause conundrum is "something" which is eternal and unchanging. This "something" must in fact be no thing because things are not unchanging and cannot therefore be eternal.

You are demanding a first cause of everything except your 'no thing'. Illogical.

 

[ding]

Seems like an elaborate 'god of the gaps' argument. We don't know how, when, or why universe popped into existence. Is this the only universe that popped into existence? Is there a control? The whole 'no thing' is a figment of your imagination.

We actually know a great deal about how and when our universe was created. Maybe you should take some time to learn the science. I've explained it enough times already that you should already know it by now. Maybe if you took the time to investigate it on your own you would be more willing not to shit all over it in the future for no other reason than it offends your sensibilities.

The why the universe was created can be deduced by what it has produced which is life and intelligence which were pre-ordained bvy the laws of nature which existed before the universe itself.

I have never argued that other universes could not be created, but if other universes exist they would have had to have the same mistake as our - which is really just more proof that the creation of our universe was intentional - which is that the universe was created out of nearly equal amounts of matter and anti-matter which were created out of nothing.

The control are the laws of nature. If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

 

[ding]

I don't know who or what created the universe: agnosticism. You want to believe in a creator, fine by me but don't expect me to hop on board until I see some evidence, not just wordplay.

I am more than happy for you to believe whatever you want to believe. It's no skin off my back. I'm not here to convince you. I am here to defeat you.

The evidence is all around and in you. God can be known through the light of human reason by studying what was created. It's the only evidence we have.

 

[ding]

You know the unknowable? You and God share the same logic? Right, you can't be serious.

No. I can only know what I can observe. I can observe the material world which is exactly what I did to reach my conclusions.

Technically anyone who uses logic and speaks the truth knows what God knows about that specific topic. God is logic. God is truth. I'm not saying God has those attributes. I am saying God is those attributes. It's that whole perception of God thing that you have never given any thought to.

 

[alang1216]

We actually know a great deal about how and when our universe was created. Maybe you should take some time to learn the science. I've explained it enough times already that you should already know it by now. Maybe if you took the time to investigate it on your own you would be more willing not to shit all over it in the future for no other reason than it offends your sensibilities.

If you truly knew about our universe's creation you'd stop saying it came from nothing. I'm not sure any scientist believes that.

The why the universe was created can be deduced by what it has produced which is life and intelligence which were pre-ordained bvy the laws of nature which existed before the universe itself.

Life and intelligence are important to you but I see no evidence they are important to the universe.

The control are the laws of nature. If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence.

It is your intelligence putting a logical structure on the universe, it is not a property of the universe.

 

[ding]

The bush was my way of saying I have never encountered any evidence to convince me the God did exist.

That's because you never made any serious efforts to do so. You have no perception of God other than fairy tale. I wouldn't believe in your God either.

No one would ever come up with the God of the Bible if they did not first assume he existed and what people said about him was valid. Illogical.

You mean besides ancient man who didn't have a Bible? Right?

But putting that aside the fact that belief in God has been overwhelming and persistent in every society since the beginning of mankind says you are wrong about this.

But what you did just prove is that your bias stems from the Bible.

 

[ding]

You are demanding a first cause of everything except your 'no thing'. Illogical.

Logic demands a first cause. You think it's logical to keep saying what came before that? It's not.

 

[alang1216]

I am more than happy for you to believe whatever you want to believe. It's no skin off my back. I'm not here to convince you. I am here to defeat you.

The evidence is all around and in you. God can be known through the light of human reason by studying what was created. It's the only evidence we have.

I'm agnostic on a creator but when it comes to the God of the Bible, I'm an atheist. I think we invented God in our image, not the other way around.

 

[ding]

If you truly knew about our universe's creation you'd stop saying it came from nothing. I'm not sure any scientist believes that.

Spontaneous creation of the universe from nothing

An interesting idea is that the universe could be spontaneously created from nothing, but no rigorous proof has been given. In this paper, we present such a proof based on the analytic solutions of the Wheeler-DeWitt equation (WDWE). Explicit solutions of the WDWE for the special operator...

arxiv.org

You were saying?

I can post about a dozen more of these.

 

[ding]

Life and intelligence are important to you but I see no evidence they are important to the universe.

I never said it was. Although the universe knowing itself is pretty amazing and cool. You and I are part of the evolution of space and time. The particles we are made of were created out of nothing ~14 billion years ago.

 

[ding]

It is your intelligence putting a logical structure on the universe, it is not a property of the universe.

Ummmm... no. I am explaining how finely tuned our universe is for life and intelligence. Within the scientific community this is seen as unusual. I am not the first person to make this argument.

Everything is made manifest by mind. George Wald said, "The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness. It is primarily physicists who have expressed most clearly and forthrightly this pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind." Arthur Eddington wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff. The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time." Von Weizsacker stated what he called his “Identity Hypothesis; that consciousness and matter are different aspects of the same reality. In 1952 Wolfgang Pauli said, "the only acceptable point of view appears to be the one that recognizes both sides of reality -- the quantitative and the qualitative, the physical and the psychical -- as compatible with each other, and can embrace them simultaneously . . . It would be most satisfactory of all if physis and psyche (i.e., matter and mind) could be seen as complementary aspects of the same reality.”

 

[ding]

I'm agnostic on a creator but when it comes to the God of the Bible, I'm an atheist. I think we invented God in our image, not the other way around.

Your call but it's the call of an uninformed person.

 

[ding]

Of course, this is all religious wishlist folly. Life is fine tuned to the universe, not the other way around. Duh.

Come at me, bro

 

[ding]

It's the snake oil salesman, incoherent sales pitch.

You have no evidence, because the things he claims are "not physical". The rigged game. Basically, it's just the apologist tap dancing that is really just introducing "MAGIC!" into the discussion.

Basically, you don't understand it and have no evidence, because it is magic.

But, even pseudo-intellectuals know how childish and stupid THAT sounds, so they make all this effort to put a tuxedo on the turd. And we get treated to verbose, vapid rants that read like a 6 year old just discovered what a thesaurus is and is trying to cover his tracks. They think it makes this childish idea sound smarter to call it anything but what it is:


"Magic, cuz I say so."

Spontaneous creation of the universe from nothing

An interesting idea is that the universe could be spontaneously created from nothing, but no rigorous proof has been given. In this paper, we present such a proof based on the analytic solutions of the Wheeler-DeWitt equation (WDWE). Explicit solutions of the WDWE for the special operator...

arxiv.org

 

[alang1216]

That's because you never made any serious efforts to do so. You have no perception of God other than fairy tale. I wouldn't believe in your God either.

You don't know me so don't assume you do.

You mean besides ancient man who didn't have a Bible? Right?

You mean the pagans? Their conception of gods was very different from yours and from other pagans. Did the Native Americans or Hawaiians have beliefs like the Bible? Even the Bible has very different views of God through time.

But putting that aside the fact that belief in God has been overwhelming and persistent in every society since the beginning of mankind says you are wrong about this.

You meant gods. Every society has tried to understand and control nature. They never come up with the same interpretation on their own.

But what you did just prove is that your bias stems from the Bible.

Or yours does.

 

[ding]

You don't know me so don't assume you do.

I read your posts. I know you better than you think I do.

You mean the pagans? Their conception of gods was very different from yours and from other pagans. Did the Native Americans or Hawaiians have beliefs like the Bible? Even the Bible has very different views of God through time.

I meant monotheists. Monotheists were the first to disassociate the affairs of God and men. Although I suspect you would never be convinced of that.

You meant gods. Every society has tried to understand and control nature. They never come up with the same interpretation on their own.

No. I meant God. What you are describing are perceptions of God. It's one of the sillier arguments of atheists.

Or yours does.

Spontaneous creation of the universe from nothing

An interesting idea is that the universe could be spontaneously created from nothing, but no rigorous proof has been given. In this paper, we present such a proof based on the analytic solutions of the Wheeler-DeWitt equation (WDWE). Explicit solutions of the WDWE for the special operator...

arxiv.org

Says otherwise.