Do Palestinians Have the Right to Defend Themselves?

[toastman]

Your point ?

What part of "that wasn't the question" confuses you?

I said "Let's compare evidence"

You say Israel has no borders. I say they do. I provided my evidence. Where's yours?

I have said that Israel has no borders, but not this time.

Post #337

The question was in my post 343.

I've answered that question before. Acquiring territory has nothing to do with declaring independence and practising self - determination. I never once read that Israel had to have acquired territory to declare independence. .Have you ?

 

[pbel]

pbel, et al,

Yes, let's do --- "break it down to a simple logic of Human understanding..."

How can it be right to give a land occupied for a Millennia to displaced people, especially by military and political force after the very UN political farce that became the lackey of the WWll powers? None of the indigenous people voted for this travesty of Justice!

(COMMENT)

Right and Wrong have very little to do with real life...

This reality is hard to accept. But life is not fair --- either at the individual level or the macro-Level for the aspiration of an entire people. We want to believe that if we are good, we will be rewarded. The Arab Palestinians did not want the outcome of the 1948 War to be more favorable to the Israelis; after all it was four stablizied Arab countries with support from other, against one newly formed country --- smaller than any if it individual opponents. Yet the Israelis come out of its War of Indepedence with control of 25% more territory. The Arab Palestinians want to maintain the illusion that life is much simpler than it is --- and that if they maintain a century of protest they just might establish more control than they actually have.

The Arab Palestinian needs to assess the reality:

"Give us the grace to accept with serenity
the things that cannot be changed, grant the Courage
to change the things which should be changed,
And the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other."
("The Serenity Prayer" by Elisabeth Sifton)​

The reality is that in the world of current events, this protest has just about run its course.

You ask: How can it be right to give a land occupied for a Millennia to displaced people.
Answer: It has happened before --- it is happening now --- and will happen again.

In the Roman Empire, Displaced Persons and Refugees emerged as a significant issue in the third and fourth centuries AD – especially in the western (European) provinces. The best known of these are the Goths. The Chinese Diaspora (mass emigration) that started in the 19th century; along with the displacement of Native Americans. There was the deported and elimination of millions of Jews and many millions of others were likewise enslaved or murdered, including Ukrainians, Russians and other Slavs. The 1947 Partition resulted in the migration of millions of people between India and Pakistan. Millions were killed in the sectarian violence of the period, with estimates of fatalities up to 2 million people. Iraqis and ISIS are examples of sectarian violence that displaced large numbers. The Afghan diaspora resulted from the 1979 invasion by the former Soviet Union; a war that displaced nearly 6 million people. And then their was the many thousands of people that fled from the Rwandan Genocide in 1994 into neighboring countries.

Other Examples include:

• There was the incorporation of Tibet into China --- 1951.
• The forced annexation of Western New Guinea by Indonesia in 1969.
• In 1979, and after a military putsch, Mauritania withdrew from the territory which left it controlled by Morocco. A UN peace process was initiated in 1991, but stalled.
• March 2014, Russia annexed most of the Crimean Peninsula, at that time part of Ukraine.

Throughout history there have been many - many displacements. I realize that my opening a discussion on the concepts of such things as Development-induced displacement and resettlement (DIDR), colonialism, and colonization --- was probably a little too much to discuss with those that endlessly plead foul play, victimization, misfeasance/malfeasance and nonfeasance --- not to mention the ethics and justice of the decisions of old. But honestly, I don't think that in the world-reality of Islamic Fundamentalism --- that the International Community is going to displace or overrun a stable nation and replace it with a Regime spawned by Islamic Resistance Movement, Jihadist and Fedayeen. No one once another Regional failure like Syria, of a country intimidated by Hezbollah terrorists, or trade Israel for another failed state like Yemen, Iraq, or Pakistan with monstrous debt, poverty, and rampant Islamic extremism. Nor does anyone want to see another example like the SUDAN: Home to the brutal genocide in Darfur, Sudan got the worst possible scores for refugees, group grievances, factionalized elites, and external intervention.

Most Respectfully,
R

War of Independence my arse! Independence from whom?

 

[toastman]

Rocco, I do have a question for you. Following the 1948 war, Israel captured territory that became part of Israel. How come that territory is not considered occupied?

The only reason I can come up with is that in the wikipedia link it says

pbel, et al,

Yes, let's do --- "break it down to a simple logic of Human understanding..."

How can it be right to give a land occupied for a Millennia to displaced people, especially by military and political force after the very UN political farce that became the lackey of the WWll powers? None of the indigenous people voted for this travesty of Justice!

(COMMENT)

Right and Wrong have very little to do with real life...

This reality is hard to accept. But life is not fair --- either at the individual level or the macro-Level for the aspiration of an entire people. We want to believe that if we are good, we will be rewarded. The Arab Palestinians did not want the outcome of the 1948 War to be more favorable to the Israelis; after all it was four stablizied Arab countries with support from other, against one newly formed country --- smaller than any if it individual opponents. Yet the Israelis come out of its War of Indepedence with control of 25% more territory. The Arab Palestinians want to maintain the illusion that life is much simpler than it is --- and that if they maintain a century of protest they just might establish more control than they actually have.

The Arab Palestinian needs to assess the reality:

"Give us the grace to accept with serenity
the things that cannot be changed, grant the Courage
to change the things which should be changed,
And the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other."
("The Serenity Prayer" by Elisabeth Sifton)​

The reality is that in the world of current events, this protest has just about run its course.

You ask: How can it be right to give a land occupied for a Millennia to displaced people.
Answer: It has happened before --- it is happening now --- and will happen again.

In the Roman Empire, Displaced Persons and Refugees emerged as a significant issue in the third and fourth centuries AD – especially in the western (European) provinces. The best known of these are the Goths. The Chinese Diaspora (mass emigration) that started in the 19th century; along with the displacement of Native Americans. There was the deported and elimination of millions of Jews and many millions of others were likewise enslaved or murdered, including Ukrainians, Russians and other Slavs. The 1947 Partition resulted in the migration of millions of people between India and Pakistan. Millions were killed in the sectarian violence of the period, with estimates of fatalities up to 2 million people. Iraqis and ISIS are examples of sectarian violence that displaced large numbers. The Afghan diaspora resulted from the 1979 invasion by the former Soviet Union; a war that displaced nearly 6 million people. And then their was the many thousands of people that fled from the Rwandan Genocide in 1994 into neighboring countries.

Other Examples include:

• There was the incorporation of Tibet into China --- 1951.
• The forced annexation of Western New Guinea by Indonesia in 1969.
• In 1979, and after a military putsch, Mauritania withdrew from the territory which left it controlled by Morocco. A UN peace process was initiated in 1991, but stalled.
• March 2014, Russia annexed most of the Crimean Peninsula, at that time part of Ukraine.

Throughout history there have been many - many displacements. I realize that my opening a discussion on the concepts of such things as Development-induced displacement and resettlement (DIDR), colonialism, and colonization --- was probably a little too much to discuss with those that endlessly plead foul play, victimization, misfeasance/malfeasance and nonfeasance --- not to mention the ethics and justice of the decisions of old. But honestly, I don't think that in the world-reality of Islamic Fundamentalism --- that the International Community is going to displace or overrun a stable nation and replace it with a Regime spawned by Islamic Resistance Movement, Jihadist and Fedayeen. No one once another Regional failure like Syria, of a country intimidated by Hezbollah terrorists, or trade Israel for another failed state like Yemen, Iraq, or Pakistan with monstrous debt, poverty, and rampant Islamic extremism. Nor does anyone want to see another example like the SUDAN: Home to the brutal genocide in Darfur, Sudan got the worst possible scores for refugees, group grievances, factionalized elites, and external intervention.

Most Respectfully,
R

War of Independence my arse! Independence from whom?

Israel you moron. The war started a day after Israel declared independence. In Hebrew, the war is called Milkhemet Ha'atzma'ut

 

[P F Tinmore]

What part of "that wasn't the question" confuses you?

I said "Let's compare evidence"

You say Israel has no borders. I say they do. I provided my evidence. Where's yours?

I have said that Israel has no borders, but not this time.

Post #337

The question was in my post 343.

I've answered that question before. Acquiring territory has nothing to do with declaring independence and practising self - determination. I never once read that Israel had to have acquired territory to declare independence. .Have you ?

Sure.

ARTICLE 1​

​

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

The Avalon Project Convention on Rights and Duties of States inter-American December 26 1933​

Where is Israel's defined territory?

 

[toastman]

I said "Let's compare evidence"

You say Israel has no borders. I say they do. I provided my evidence. Where's yours?

I have said that Israel has no borders, but not this time.

Post #337

The question was in my post 343.

I've answered that question before. Acquiring territory has nothing to do with declaring independence and practising self - determination. I never once read that Israel had to have acquired territory to declare independence. .Have you ?

Sure.

ARTICLE 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

The Avalon Project Convention on Rights and Duties of States inter-American December 26 1933​

Where is Israel's defined territory?

How does that answer my question ?? You said Israel needed to have acquired territory. Where in the link that you posted say anything about acquiring territory ??

 

[P F Tinmore]

I have said that Israel has no borders, but not this time.

Post #337

The question was in my post 343.

I've answered that question before. Acquiring territory has nothing to do with declaring independence and practising self - determination. I never once read that Israel had to have acquired territory to declare independence. .Have you ?

Sure.

ARTICLE 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

The Avalon Project Convention on Rights and Duties of States inter-American December 26 1933​

Where is Israel's defined territory?

How does that answer my question ?? You said Israel needed to have acquired territory. Where in the link that you posted say anything about acquiring territory ??

Do Palestinians Have the Right to Defend Themselves Page 35 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Do try to keep up.

 

[Roudy]

^^^^^
Do Israelis have a right to defend themselves from Palestinian Islamic Nazi savages who are no different that ISIS animals?

 

[toastman]

Post #337

The question was in my post 343.

I've answered that question before. Acquiring territory has nothing to do with declaring independence and practising self - determination. I never once read that Israel had to have acquired territory to declare independence. .Have you ?

Sure.

ARTICLE 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

The Avalon Project Convention on Rights and Duties of States inter-American December 26 1933​

Where is Israel's defined territory?

How does that answer my question ?? You said Israel needed to have acquired territory. Where in the link that you posted say anything about acquiring territory ??

Do Palestinians Have the Right to Defend Themselves Page 35 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Do try to keep up.

Man , you are beyond confused. I know what you posted, why are you giving me a link to that post again ??

Now, you said Israel needed to have acquired territory in order to declare independence. I asked you where is it you read about this 'acquiring territory' crap ?
You responded by posting a link that does not back up your claim

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

Absolutely --- montelatici is correct. All refugees in the world are cared for by one agency UNHRC except Palestinians. While the UNHCR has found solutions for many many refugees, the UNRWA is a failed agency and has not found a solution for a single Palestinian that claims refugee status under CERI, but would not otherwise be considered a refugee. Advisory Commission was created by UN Resolution 302 (IV) on 8 December 1949, has not shown a single solution, and the United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine has also failed in this regard. Despite the lack of progress, the commission still exists and the General Assembly still continues to pass annual resolutions calling on it to continue its efforts to carry out its original mandate.

This is a Palestinian Slight of hand. Under this regime, not only will the UNRWA not place a single refugee, but it will be the only refugee program which generates more refugees.

Firstly, you are attempting to use 1951 Refugee Convention Article 3C (which indicates that a refugee accepting refugee status loses refugee status).

Palestinian refugees were specifically excluded from the 1951 Refugee Convention in Article 1D, wherein:

“This Convention shall not apply to persons who are at present receiving from organs or agencies of the United Nations other than the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees protection or assistance. When such protection or assistance has ceased for any reason, without the position of such persons being definitively settled in accordance with the relevant resolutions adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations, these persons shall ipso facto be entitled to the benefits of this convention.”

Of course, the Palestinian refugees were and are still receiving "protection/assistance" from the
United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) at the time. UNRWA was established to comply with UN Resolution 194 which states:

11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations;"

It is UNRWA that dictates the refugee status of the Palestinians and it includes all those refugees that wish to return to their homes and/or want to be compensated, per the resolution. UNRWA's charter assigns refugee status to the actual refugees and male descendants (and their dependents).

It always amazes me how the Zionist propaganda machine is able to fool even a relatively well informed person like Rocco.

(COMMENT)

The UNRWA is established pursuant to General Assembly 302 (IV), a resolution that does not supersede international law. No organization established on a temporary basis is going to be funded forever. Once the funding is withdrawn, the UNRWA simply melts away. It was originally suppose to terminated not later than 31 December 1950.

The Convention is superior to the CERI (UNRWA Consolidated and Eligibility Registration Instructions). CERI is a UNRWA specific instruction, it is not a law, intended to facilitate the Agency’s operations.

The UNRWA has no official Charter only continuing resolutions. It has self-generated instructions CERI. But no universal law behind it. And while the UNHCR has found durable solutions for more that 3 million real refugees --- the UNRWA has found zero. Eventually, the funding will stop for the UNRWA. And since its numbers never go down, but always up --- eventually someone will notice.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

The question was in my post 343.

I've answered that question before. Acquiring territory has nothing to do with declaring independence and practising self - determination. I never once read that Israel had to have acquired territory to declare independence. .Have you ?

Sure.

ARTICLE 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

The Avalon Project Convention on Rights and Duties of States inter-American December 26 1933​

Where is Israel's defined territory?

How does that answer my question ?? You said Israel needed to have acquired territory. Where in the link that you posted say anything about acquiring territory ??

Do Palestinians Have the Right to Defend Themselves Page 35 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Do try to keep up.

Man , you are beyond confused. I know what you posted, why are you giving me a link to that post again ??

Now, you said Israel needed to have acquired territory in order to declare independence. I asked you where is it you read about this 'acquiring territory' crap ?
You responded by posting a link that does not back up your claim

A state should have a defined territory.

Where is Israel's defined territory?

When did it legally acquire that territory?

I can't make it any simpler than that.

 

[Roudy]

pbel, et al,

Yes, let's do --- "break it down to a simple logic of Human understanding..."

How can it be right to give a land occupied for a Millennia to displaced people, especially by military and political force after the very UN political farce that became the lackey of the WWll powers? None of the indigenous people voted for this travesty of Justice!

(COMMENT)

Right and Wrong have very little to do with real life...

This reality is hard to accept. But life is not fair --- either at the individual level or the macro-Level for the aspiration of an entire people. We want to believe that if we are good, we will be rewarded. The Arab Palestinians did not want the outcome of the 1948 War to be more favorable to the Israelis; after all it was four stablizied Arab countries with support from other, against one newly formed country --- smaller than any if it individual opponents. Yet the Israelis come out of its War of Indepedence with control of 25% more territory. The Arab Palestinians want to maintain the illusion that life is much simpler than it is --- and that if they maintain a century of protest they just might establish more control than they actually have.

The Arab Palestinian needs to assess the reality:

"Give us the grace to accept with serenity
the things that cannot be changed, grant the Courage
to change the things which should be changed,
And the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other."
("The Serenity Prayer" by Elisabeth Sifton)​

The reality is that in the world of current events, this protest has just about run its course.

You ask: How can it be right to give a land occupied for a Millennia to displaced people.
Answer: It has happened before --- it is happening now --- and will happen again.

In the Roman Empire, Displaced Persons and Refugees emerged as a significant issue in the third and fourth centuries AD – especially in the western (European) provinces. The best known of these are the Goths. The Chinese Diaspora (mass emigration) that started in the 19th century; along with the displacement of Native Americans. There was the deported and elimination of millions of Jews and many millions of others were likewise enslaved or murdered, including Ukrainians, Russians and other Slavs. The 1947 Partition resulted in the migration of millions of people between India and Pakistan. Millions were killed in the sectarian violence of the period, with estimates of fatalities up to 2 million people. Iraqis and ISIS are examples of sectarian violence that displaced large numbers. The Afghan diaspora resulted from the 1979 invasion by the former Soviet Union; a war that displaced nearly 6 million people. And then their was the many thousands of people that fled from the Rwandan Genocide in 1994 into neighboring countries.

Other Examples include:

• There was the incorporation of Tibet into China --- 1951.
• The forced annexation of Western New Guinea by Indonesia in 1969.
• In 1979, and after a military putsch, Mauritania withdrew from the territory which left it controlled by Morocco. A UN peace process was initiated in 1991, but stalled.
• March 2014, Russia annexed most of the Crimean Peninsula, at that time part of Ukraine.

Throughout history there have been many - many displacements. I realize that my opening a discussion on the concepts of such things as Development-induced displacement and resettlement (DIDR), colonialism, and colonization --- was probably a little too much to discuss with those that endlessly plead foul play, victimization, misfeasance/malfeasance and nonfeasance --- not to mention the ethics and justice of the decisions of old. But honestly, I don't think that in the world-reality of Islamic Fundamentalism --- that the International Community is going to displace or overrun a stable nation and replace it with a Regime spawned by Islamic Resistance Movement, Jihadist and Fedayeen. No one once another Regional failure like Syria, of a country intimidated by Hezbollah terrorists, or trade Israel for another failed state like Yemen, Iraq, or Pakistan with monstrous debt, poverty, and rampant Islamic extremism. Nor does anyone want to see another example like the SUDAN: Home to the brutal genocide in Darfur, Sudan got the worst possible scores for refugees, group grievances, factionalized elites, and external intervention.

Most Respectfully,
R

War of Independence my arse! Independence from whom?

Israel s War of Independence 1947-1949

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes --- a good question.

I said "Let's compare evidence"

You say Israel has no borders. I say they do. I provided my evidence. Where's yours?

I have said that Israel has no borders, but not this time.

Post #337

The question was in my post 343.

I've answered that question before. Acquiring territory has nothing to do with declaring independence and practising self - determination. I never once read that Israel had to have acquired territory to declare independence. .Have you ?

Sure.

ARTICLE 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

The Avalon Project Convention on Rights and Duties of States inter-American December 26 1933​

Where is Israel's defined territory?

(COMMENT)

What is "defined territory;" it is undefined. It is given to be the territory that a nation has sovereign control over. Israel has has had, and continues to have, sovereign control over its established perimeter.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Roudy]

^^^^
Or, to put it another way, try stepping into Israel illegally, and the Israelis will make sure you understand how serious they are about their borders

 

[P F Tinmore]

montelatici, et al,

Absolutely --- montelatici is correct. All refugees in the world are cared for by one agency UNHRC except Palestinians. While the UNHCR has found solutions for many many refugees, the UNRWA is a failed agency and has not found a solution for a single Palestinian that claims refugee status under CERI, but would not otherwise be considered a refugee. Advisory Commission was created by UN Resolution 302 (IV) on 8 December 1949, has not shown a single solution, and the United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine has also failed in this regard. Despite the lack of progress, the commission still exists and the General Assembly still continues to pass annual resolutions calling on it to continue its efforts to carry out its original mandate.

This is a Palestinian Slight of hand. Under this regime, not only will the UNRWA not place a single refugee, but it will be the only refugee program which generates more refugees.

Firstly, you are attempting to use 1951 Refugee Convention Article 3C (which indicates that a refugee accepting refugee status loses refugee status).

Palestinian refugees were specifically excluded from the 1951 Refugee Convention in Article 1D, wherein:

“This Convention shall not apply to persons who are at present receiving from organs or agencies of the United Nations other than the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees protection or assistance. When such protection or assistance has ceased for any reason, without the position of such persons being definitively settled in accordance with the relevant resolutions adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations, these persons shall ipso facto be entitled to the benefits of this convention.”

Of course, the Palestinian refugees were and are still receiving "protection/assistance" from the
United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) at the time. UNRWA was established to comply with UN Resolution 194 which states:

11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations;"

It is UNRWA that dictates the refugee status of the Palestinians and it includes all those refugees that wish to return to their homes and/or want to be compensated, per the resolution. UNRWA's charter assigns refugee status to the actual refugees and male descendants (and their dependents).

It always amazes me how the Zionist propaganda machine is able to fool even a relatively well informed person like Rocco.

(COMMENT)

The UNRWA is established pursuant to General Assembly 302 (IV), a resolution that does not supersede international law. No organization established on a temporary basis is going to be funded forever. Once the funding is withdrawn, the UNRWA simply melts away. It was originally suppose to terminated not later than 31 December 1950.

The Convention is superior to the CERI (UNRWA Consolidated and Eligibility Registration Instructions). CERI is a UNRWA specific instruction, it is not a law, intended to facilitate the Agency’s operations.

The UNRWA has no official Charter only continuing resolutions. It has self-generated instructions CERI. But no universal law behind it. And while the UNHCR has found durable solutions for more that 3 million real refugees --- the UNRWA has found zero. Eventually, the funding will stop for the UNRWA. And since its numbers never go down, but always up --- eventually someone will notice.

Most Respectfully,
R

The UN has passed several resolution attempting to address the refugee problem.

 

[toastman]

I've answered that question before. Acquiring territory has nothing to do with declaring independence and practising self - determination. I never once read that Israel had to have acquired territory to declare independence. .Have you ?

Sure.

ARTICLE 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

The Avalon Project Convention on Rights and Duties of States inter-American December 26 1933​

Where is Israel's defined territory?

How does that answer my question ?? You said Israel needed to have acquired territory. Where in the link that you posted say anything about acquiring territory ??

Do Palestinians Have the Right to Defend Themselves Page 35 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Do try to keep up.

Man , you are beyond confused. I know what you posted, why are you giving me a link to that post again ??

Now, you said Israel needed to have acquired territory in order to declare independence. I asked you where is it you read about this 'acquiring territory' crap ?
You responded by posting a link that does not back up your claim

A state should have a defined territory.

Where is Israel's defined territory?

When did it legally acquire that territory?

I can't make it any simpler than that.

Now you're deflecting. You're asking the wrong questions. Acquiring territory has nothing to do with ANYTHING. It is simply a Tinmore pre requisite.
You keep avoiding my question: Where did you read that Israel needed to have acquired territory to legally declare independence ??

If you want to see Israels territory, look at a map.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes --- a good question.

I have said that Israel has no borders, but not this time.

Post #337

The question was in my post 343.

I've answered that question before. Acquiring territory has nothing to do with declaring independence and practising self - determination. I never once read that Israel had to have acquired territory to declare independence. .Have you ?

Sure.

ARTICLE 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

The Avalon Project Convention on Rights and Duties of States inter-American December 26 1933​

Where is Israel's defined territory?

(COMMENT)

What is "defined territory;" it is undefined. It is given to be the territory that a nation has sovereign control over. Israel has has had, and continues to have, sovereign control over its established perimeter.

Most Respectfully,
R

That is only half true. A nation can also have control over occupied territory.

The answers to my questions will clarify that.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, you are being foolish again.

I've answered that question before. Acquiring territory has nothing to do with declaring independence and practising self - determination. I never once read that Israel had to have acquired territory to declare independence. .Have you ?

Sure.

ARTICLE 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

The Avalon Project Convention on Rights and Duties of States inter-American December 26 1933​

Where is Israel's defined territory?

How does that answer my question ?? You said Israel needed to have acquired territory. Where in the link that you posted say anything about acquiring territory ??

Do Palestinians Have the Right to Defend Themselves Page 35 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Do try to keep up.

Man , you are beyond confused. I know what you posted, why are you giving me a link to that post again ??

Now, you said Israel needed to have acquired territory in order to declare independence. I asked you where is it you read about this 'acquiring territory' crap ?
You responded by posting a link that does not back up your claim

A state should have a defined territory.

Where is Israel's defined territory?

When did it legally acquire that territory?

I can't make it any simpler than that.

(ANSWERS)

• Where is Israel's defined territory?
  • It is given to be the territory that a nation has sovereign control over. Israel has has had, and continues to have, sovereign control over its established perimeter. Any reasonable map of today will tell you were that is.
• When did it legally acquire that territory?
  • Territory does not have to be "legally acquired." (Where ever did you get that idea?) Israel was declared by right if self-determination, pursuant to the advise and assistance of the UN and the established "Steps Preparatory to Independence." Since that time, the rule body of Israel, like any other country, determines where they establish and control their sovereignty.

Legally has nothing to do with the establishment of sovereignty. You don't think that China is going to give back Tibet or allow Taiwan to go independent. You don't think Russia is going to give back the Crimea. Heavens no... They establish sovereign control and keep it.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toastman]

Since Israel is a sovereign state:

In international law, a sovereign state is a nonphysical juridical entity that is represented by one centralized government that has sovereignty over a geographic area. International law defines sovereign states as having a permanent population, defined territory, one government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other sovereign states

Sovereign state - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[P F Tinmore]

Sure.

ARTICLE 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

The Avalon Project Convention on Rights and Duties of States inter-American December 26 1933​

Where is Israel's defined territory?

How does that answer my question ?? You said Israel needed to have acquired territory. Where in the link that you posted say anything about acquiring territory ??

Do Palestinians Have the Right to Defend Themselves Page 35 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Do try to keep up.

Man , you are beyond confused. I know what you posted, why are you giving me a link to that post again ??

Now, you said Israel needed to have acquired territory in order to declare independence. I asked you where is it you read about this 'acquiring territory' crap ?
You responded by posting a link that does not back up your claim

A state should have a defined territory.

Where is Israel's defined territory?

When did it legally acquire that territory?

I can't make it any simpler than that.

Now you're deflecting. You're asking the wrong questions. Acquiring territory has nothing to do with ANYTHING. It is simply a Tinmore pre requisite.
You keep avoiding my question: Where did you read that Israel needed to have acquired territory to legally declare independence ??

If you want to see Israels territory, look at a map.

Armistice lines are not borders. They do not define anything.

 

[toastman]

How does that answer my question ?? You said Israel needed to have acquired territory. Where in the link that you posted say anything about acquiring territory ??

Do Palestinians Have the Right to Defend Themselves Page 35 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Do try to keep up.

Man , you are beyond confused. I know what you posted, why are you giving me a link to that post again ??

Now, you said Israel needed to have acquired territory in order to declare independence. I asked you where is it you read about this 'acquiring territory' crap ?
You responded by posting a link that does not back up your claim

A state should have a defined territory.

Where is Israel's defined territory?

When did it legally acquire that territory?

I can't make it any simpler than that.

Now you're deflecting. You're asking the wrong questions. Acquiring territory has nothing to do with ANYTHING. It is simply a Tinmore pre requisite.
You keep avoiding my question: Where did you read that Israel needed to have acquired territory to legally declare independence ??

If you want to see Israels territory, look at a map.

Armistice lines are not borders. They do not define anything.

What do armistice lines have to do with anything ?