Zone1 Did God give us free will to do evil?

[Cougarbear]

Atheists often attack Judaism and Christianity by asking the question, Why would an all powerful God create a fallen world with so much unmerited suffering.

1. The Calvanist Christians tend to lean into the logic of the problem of evil. Since God is good and God created all evil, that evil has to be good in ways that we can't yet understand including damning the souls to excruciating torment for all eternity.

2. Arminian strains of Christianity try to get around this by saying that God could create beings that are truly independent of God's will that could sin of their own accord. But, even then God's omniscience and omnipotence still makes God fully complicit in that evil since he could both fully predict it and readily put a stop to it.

If you don't like these usual reasons, then perhaps you might like this one:

3. Human beings are self existent in the same way God is. We have always existed before coming to this earth. There are at least parts of us that God didn't create like maybe our energy or intelligence. And that means that we bear only our responsibility for our choices. Because they stem at least in part from our then eternal nature. In that context, evil and suffering isn't something that God just cooked up one day or the opposite of good that would naturally appear like darkness being the absence of light where God would still be the creator of evil. And, therefore, Damnation isn't something he doles out to administer cosmic justice. They are part of us and part of the reality we live in. God has to work with that and navigate that. This is why he can weep along side us as we experience that suffering. And, he graciously offers the Atonement to help us overcome it if we turn to Christ. In other words, we have had free will or choice to choose good and evil as God has too. We are therefore 100% responsible for our choice to choose and do good or choose and do evil. God didn't do it anymore than the devil makes you do evil.

What are your thoughts? Does option #3 help you understand Mr. Atheist that God didn't create evil or does he allow it? Forcing us to not do evil things by controlling our eternal free will intelligence would be evil by definition of Atheists. In my opinion, Options 1 or 2 don't work for the Atheist's question. Option #3 is the only logical reason that works. What say you?

 

[shockedcanadian]

Atheists often attack Judaism and Christianity by asking the question, Why would an all powerful God create a fallen world with so much unmerited suffering.

1. The Calvanist Christians tend to lean into the logic of the problem of evil. Since God is good and God created all evil, that evil has to be good in ways that we can't yet understand including damning the souls to excruciating torment for all eternity.

2. Arminian strains of Christianity try to get around this by saying that God could create beings that are truly independent of God's will that could sin of their own accord. But, even then God's omniscience and omnipotence still makes God fully complicit in that evil since he could both fully predict it and readily put a stop to it.

If you don't like these usual reasons, then perhaps you might like this one:

3. Human beings are self existent in the same way God is. We have always existed before coming to this earth. There are at least parts of us that God didn't create like maybe our energy or intelligence. And that means that we bear only our responsibility for our choices. Because they stem at least in part from our then eternal nature. In that context, evil and suffering isn't something that God just cooked up one day or the opposite of good that would naturally appear like darkness being the absence of light where God would still be the creator of evil. And, therefore, Damnation isn't something he doles out to administer cosmic justice. They are part of us and part of the reality we live in. God has to work with that and navigate that. This is why he can weep along side us as we experience that suffering. And, he graciously offers the Atonement to help us overcome it if we turn to Christ. In other words, we have had free will or choice to choose good and evil as God has too. We are therefore 100% responsible for our choice to choose and do good or choose and do evil. God didn't do it anymore than the devil makes you do evil.

What are your thoughts? Does option #3 help you understand Mr. Atheist that God didn't create evil or does he allow it? Forcing us to not do evil things by controlling our eternal free will intelligence would be evil by definition of Atheists. In my opinion, Options 1 or 2 don't work for the Atheist's question. Option #3 is the only logical reason that works. What say you?

This is one of the core mysteries where the number of opinions are endless. There are times I will with varcity debate a position but it always seems to end with more questions than answers. Other times I will take this position as.I will tonight, rather docils perhaps but just as valid.as.any; we know what the Torah conveys, we know what G-ds 613 Commands are, we simply need to do our best to adhere to these laws, do good for humanity and reject evil. We thus have this control at the present juncture.

 

[Meriweather]

we know what G-ds 613 Commands are, we simply need to do our best to adhere to these laws, do good for humanity and reject evil. We thus have this control at the present juncture.

Forget the 613 Commandments. As Rabbi Hillel said, "Love God and love your neighbor. All else is commentary."

 

[shockedcanadian]

Forget the 613 Commandments. As Rabbi Hillel said, "Love God and love your neighbor. All else is commentary."

Actually I believe he said "that which is harmful to you, do not do to others". That was his lesson to a non-Jew who.wanted to learn the Toeah, he was greatly oversimplifying obviously but maintaining such a philosophy in life certainly wouldn't hurt.. I read the Talmud from time to time also as the commentary is a helpful guide for me. I also have a nice book that outlines in detail all 613 Mitzvah. It's a nice source to remind one of that which is most important.

 

[Mack The Finger]

I believe in a after life and a Creator greater than myself.

I had a near death experience and tho it wasn't as people describe it...it was enough to convice me it where I'd like to be.

 

[Meriweather]

Actually I believe he said "that which is harmful to you, do not do to others". That was his lesson to a non-Jew who.wanted to learn the Toeah, he was greatly oversimplifying obviously but maintaining such a philosophy in life certainly wouldn't hurt.. I read the Talmud from time to time also as the commentary is a helpful guide for me.

Yes, Hillel said that as well, but in the what is harmful to you, he was quoting Tobit 4:15: That which is hateful to you, do not do to others. Hillel lived eight centuries after Tobit.

 

[lg325]

Most suffering by man is caused by man himself through the decisions they make by God given freewill.

 

[Cassandro]

3. Human beings are self existent in the same way God is. We have always existed before coming to this earth. There are at least parts of us that God didn't create like maybe our energy or intelligence. And that means that we bear only our responsibility for our choices. Because they stem at least in part from our then eternal nature. In that context, evil and suffering isn't something that God just cooked up one day or the opposite of good that would naturally appear like darkness being the absence of light where God would still be the creator of evil. And, therefore, Damnation isn't something he doles out to administer cosmic justice. They are part of us and part of the reality we live in. God has to work with that and navigate that. This is why he can weep along side us as we experience that suffering. And, he graciously offers the Atonement to help us overcome it if we turn to Christ. In other words, we have had free will or choice to choose good and evil as God has too. We are therefore 100% responsible for our choice to choose and do good or choose and do evil. God didn't do it anymore than the devil makes you do evil.

Why didn't Jesus talk about this?

 

[progressive hunter]

Atheists often attack Judaism and Christianity by asking the question, Why would an all powerful God create a fallen world with so much unmerited suffering.

1. The Calvanist Christians tend to lean into the logic of the problem of evil. Since God is good and God created all evil, that evil has to be good in ways that we can't yet understand including damning the souls to excruciating torment for all eternity.

2. Arminian strains of Christianity try to get around this by saying that God could create beings that are truly independent of God's will that could sin of their own accord. But, even then God's omniscience and omnipotence still makes God fully complicit in that evil since he could both fully predict it and readily put a stop to it.

If you don't like these usual reasons, then perhaps you might like this one:

3. Human beings are self existent in the same way God is. We have always existed before coming to this earth. There are at least parts of us that God didn't create like maybe our energy or intelligence. And that means that we bear only our responsibility for our choices. Because they stem at least in part from our then eternal nature. In that context, evil and suffering isn't something that God just cooked up one day or the opposite of good that would naturally appear like darkness being the absence of light where God would still be the creator of evil. And, therefore, Damnation isn't something he doles out to administer cosmic justice. They are part of us and part of the reality we live in. God has to work with that and navigate that. This is why he can weep along side us as we experience that suffering. And, he graciously offers the Atonement to help us overcome it if we turn to Christ. In other words, we have had free will or choice to choose good and evil as God has too. We are therefore 100% responsible for our choice to choose and do good or choose and do evil. God didn't do it anymore than the devil makes you do evil.

What are your thoughts? Does option #3 help you understand Mr. Atheist that God didn't create evil or does he allow it? Forcing us to not do evil things by controlling our eternal free will intelligence would be evil by definition of Atheists. In my opinion, Options 1 or 2 don't work for the Atheist's question. Option #3 is the only logical reason that works. What say you?

think about it,,

if we didnt have free will we would basically be a plant,,

our free will is what tells/motivates us to think and move,,

 

[onefour1]

The LDS Doctrine that the intelligence of man has always existed is a very profound doctrine. It addresses the following questions:

1. If God is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving, then why didn't simply create us to be as perfect as himself?
2. If God is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving, then why does he allow evil in the world?

If self-existent intelligences are by nature imperfect and self-existent, then God could not create them to be perfect. God would need another way for his children to progress toward perfection. For a self-existing being to progress along the path to perfection, they would need free will. For a being to truly become a good being in and of themselves, they need to learn to choose good of their own free will and choice. If you are to force a being to do good, then they are not doing the good of their own free will but are being forced to do good. It is not them that is really doing good. Free will is critical for a being to become a good being in and of themselves. God sends us to this fallen world so that we can experience good and evil and hopefully learn to choose good over evil. Those who learn to choose good and believe in it become good beings. However, with freewill, some will chose evil over good. Because we are imperfect and need to work out our choices, we all at times make bad choices and need to come to repentance. We also need the atonement of our Savior Jesus Christ so that we can find forgiveness of our shortcomings. God has provided a means for all of us to progress by taking advantage of repentance and forgiveness. In the end, we all become what we choose to become. This fallen world has various evils in it by nature of being fallen. However, it is our free will that also brings much evil into this world. If God created us from absolutely nothing, we then have to ask, why didn't God smply create us to be as perfect as himself? We would also have to ask, why does God allow evil into the world? But because of our imperfect, self-existing intelligences, and our free will, evil exists in the world. This world is a temporary learning ground for us to learn to choose good over evil.

 

[Cougarbear]

This is one of the core mysteries where the number of opinions are endless. There are times I will with varcity debate a position but it always seems to end with more questions than answers. Other times I will take this position as.I will tonight, rather docils perhaps but just as valid.as.any; we know what the Torah conveys, we know what G-ds 613 Commands are, we simply need to do our best to adhere to these laws, do good for humanity and reject evil. We thus have this control at the present juncture.

 

[Cougarbear]

 

[Cougarbear]

Why didn't Jesus talk about this?

Who said he didn’t?

 

[Cougarbear]

think about it,,

if we didnt have free will we would basically be a plant,,

our free will is what tells/motivates us to think and move,,

But did he create evil?

 

[progressive hunter]

But did he create evil?

cant have good without evil,,

both require free will,,

 

[onefour1]

cant have good without evil,,

both require free will,,

I agree that you cannot have good without evil. If you create good then its opposite will automatically exist. Whether a principle of good or evil is followed is up to the free will choice of a person presented with each concept.

 

[Leo123]

Without evil there is no good and visa versa. IMO, we are here to choose.

 

[Cougarbear]

cant have good without evil,,

both require free will,,

Actually, both don’t exist without free moral agency or free will. There would be no difference between good and evil. That’s what progressive leftist teach. There is no sin.

 

[SweetSue92]

The LDS Doctrine that the intelligence of man has always existed is a very profound doctrine. It addresses the following questions:

1. If God is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving, then why didn't simply create us to be as perfect as himself?
2. If God is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving, then why does he allow evil in the world?

If self-existent intelligences are by nature imperfect and self-existent, then God could not create them to be perfect. God would need another way for his children to progress toward perfection. For a self-existing being to progress along the path to perfection, they would need free will. For a being to truly become a good being in and of themselves, they need to learn to choose good of their own free will and choice. If you are to force a being to do good, then they are not doing the good of their own free will but are being forced to do good. It is not them that is really doing good. Free will is critical for a being to become a good being in and of themselves. God sends us to this fallen world so that we can experience good and evil and hopefully learn to choose good over evil. Those who learn to choose good and believe in it become good beings. However, with freewill, some will chose evil over good. Because we are imperfect and need to work out our choices, we all at times make bad choices and need to come to repentance. We also need the atonement of our Savior Jesus Christ so that we can find forgiveness of our shortcomings. God has provided a means for all of us to progress by taking advantage of repentance and forgiveness. In the end, we all become what we choose to become. This fallen world has various evils in it by nature of being fallen. However, it is our free will that also brings much evil into this world. If God created us from absolutely nothing, we then have to ask, why didn't God smply create us to be as perfect as himself? We would also have to ask, why does God allow evil into the world? But because of our imperfect, self-existing intelligences, and our free will, evil exists in the world. This world is a temporary learning ground for us to learn to choose good over evil.

I'm sorry, but I can't take a religion seriously that has an actual rule that you not drink hot caffeinated beverages but cold ones are great

I mean....

 

[onefour1]

I'm sorry, but I can't take a religion seriously that has an actual rule that you not drink hot caffeinated beverages but cold ones are great

I mean....

You mean? Here is the revelation that was given:

Doctrine and Covenant 89
Section 89

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently, he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result.

1–9, The use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks is proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.

1 A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—

2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.

4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—

5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

Mormon Life Expectancy​

Studies have shown that Mormons tend to have significantly higher life expectancies compared to other faiths. According to a 25-year study conducted by UCLA professors James E. Enstrom and Lester Breslow from 1980 to 2004, active California Mormons had unusually low standardized mortality ratios (SMRs) for all causes of death.23 For individuals aged 25-99 years at entry, the SMR for all causes of death was 0.45 (0.42-0.48) for males and 0.55 (0.51-0.59) for females. This translates to life expectancies of 84 years for males and 86 years for females from age 25.1

Another study comparing life expectancy between members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS or Mormons) and non-LDS in Utah found that life expectancy was 77.3 for LDS males, 70.0 for non-LDS males, 82.2 for LDS females, and 76.4 for non-LDS females.4 Even after removing deaths associated with tobacco use, the difference in life expectancy remained significant, indicating that factors beyond just tobacco use contribute to the longevity of Mormons.4

These studies suggest that several healthy characteristics of the Mormon lifestyle, such as abstention from tobacco and alcohol, adherence to a healthy diet, and emphasis on family life and education, are associated with substantially reduced death rates and increased life expectancy.