Deuteronomy 13:6-11

[SweetSue92]

I wasn’t telling you the value you place on it.

I am telling you that compared to memories existing forever memories which cease have no value.

You can only value your memories until you die. By your own logic those memories will have no value to you after your death.

Whereas I believe all the things we did that were good and bad will last forever so they have more value because they will have to be lived with forever.

I didnt assert value after I die, I asserted greater value while Im living. And by value, only I can determine what I value, how I decide to assess value and how much value I give any certain thing.

So pretty much your Nunnish opinion of everlasting fairytales is meaningless to how much value I place on the here and now. To me, it's everything. Youre free to disagree, as value is mostly subjective, but youre not free to assert yours unto mine and it's gross to even make an attempt.

And I am asking you what value your experiences have to you after you die. Because that’s what we are comparing.

Your good name only has value to you while you are living. My good name has value to me for eternity.

My experiences mean more to me now than if I die and continue on. Youre free to disagree with that. but its not up for debate. Its personal opinion.

Again, just as I said--personal opinion. Ice cream flavors. Great. So just don't invoke objective rationalism, because there is none.

Your life, mushrooms, amoebas, worms. Ice cream flavors.

YOUR life, maybe.

You dont get to decide value for others. Maybe thats why this whole value thing triggers you. Dont be so insecure, just because I dont have a God belief doesnt mean that I dont value humans over x, y, z. That might be what YOUR ultimate conclusion would be, but mine is up to me. VALUE is subjective, BY DEFINITION

You are the one calling insults for some reason--"insecure". You're triggered actually and you're projecting it on me. Odd.

And by the way, I'm not saying you don't value anything or don't have a right to value anything. You do, but you're building castles by the seashore. You are molecules in motion; your values are as significant as an amoeba passing gas, if such a thing were possible. IOW YOU might value humans but you have no rational case for doing so, so who cares? The next guy values his pet rock, the next guy favors his fish. None of these are wrong, btw. They're just other people's so-called "values".

(BTW, I don't think any of this is true. I am giving you your worldview. I don't share it. I think you're infinitely more valuable than a gassy amoeba or a mushroom. You know you are too, but you have no rational case to make for why you are.)

 

[SweetSue92]

It is not even close to the same. Your life may be useful to other humans, but so what? What is important? What is worth?

You "sit on God's lap to smack His face" when you invoke these things. You are born, you want to live because you have been gifted with that instinct, you die. So what? Why is your life more valuable than that of a mushroom?

Your assertions dont mean much to me, rationally. Theyre unjustified.

I can justify my value by merely questioning those that love me. I can also value my own life, as it brings me joy and so thats what gives it worth to me.

If there was some everlasting sky existence in some other realm after this one, it devalues this Earth-life in the sense that its not all that Id have...its merely temporary. I dont live my life that way, I think its ridiculous and cheapens things that I cherish.

You're invoking rationalism but then contradicting it in the same post. If your life has objective, rational value than that value exists across all time and places. If not, then you're just comparing ice cream flavors, basically--you're polling opinions.

The fact is that you cannot assert that your life has any intrinsic worth from your worldview. You can FEEL it has worth; you can WANT it to have worth. You can poll your kids, your dog, or the mushrooms in your backyard to see if it has worth. But it doesn't matter. You, me, all of us are "molecules in motion"--we are all essentially worthless. You have no RATIONAL case for your worthiness.

value is subjective, i never said differently. Also, rationality can be used for literally anything, so to say that one shouldnt..or couldnt...invoke it when determining value is just plain ******* stupid.

In your worldview value must be subjective.

It is absolutely not in mine.

The definition of value inherently MAKES it subjective. Something cannot have "value" independent of a thinking agent (subject) "valuing" said something.

Even if you ascertain value "from God," god is a subject and the value is subjective...its what he determines.

Just like I determine my own. And I alone determine how much I personally value "mushrooms."

But you are not God. You do not have all knowledge and all power, and you certainly did not create the universe.

In other words. You might not personally value mushrooms, and may not choose to eat them, and may even stop your friends and family from eating them. You could make your life's quest eradicating mushrooms from the face of the earth and not even make a dent.

God is objective because He is the creator of mushrooms. IOW He IS the Truth about mushrooms. And all things.

 

[SweetSue92]

And I am asking you what value your experiences have to you after you die. Because that’s what we are comparing.

Your good name only has value to you while you are living. My good name has value to me for eternity.

My experiences mean more to me now than if I die and continue on. Youre free to disagree with that. but its not up for debate. Its personal opinion.

Again, just as I said--personal opinion. Ice cream flavors. Great. So just don't invoke objective rationalism, because there is none.

Your life, mushrooms, amoebas, worms. Ice cream flavors.

YOUR life, maybe.

You dont get to decide value for others. Maybe thats why this whole value thing triggers you. Dont be so insecure, just because I dont have a God belief doesnt mean that I dont value humans over x, y, z. That might be what YOUR ultimate conclusion would be, but mine is up to me. VALUE is subjective, BY DEFINITION

You are the one calling insults for some reason--"insecure". You're triggered actually and you're projecting it on me. Odd.

And by the way, I'm not saying you don't value anything or don't have a right to value anything. You do, but you're building castles by the seashore. You are molecules in motion; your values are as significant as an amoeba passing gas, if such a thing were possible. IOW YOU might value humans but you have no rational case for doing so, so who cares? The next guy values his pet rock, the next guy favors his fish. None of these are wrong, btw. They're just other people's so-called "values".

(BTW, I don't think any of this is true. I am giving you your worldview. I don't share it. I think you're infinitely more valuable than a gassy amoeba or a mushroom. You know you are too, but you have no rational case to make for why you are.)

No, youre misapprehending my world view. I do have a foundation for what I value and for your to assert that I dont is not an argument, its an assertion. I have a rational case for what I value, too.

Value is subjective, each agent determines how much value they place on any given thing. THATS the foundation: the agent's opinion, which is all that value is. You can have a rational opinion. Or an irrational one. I find mine quite rational, because without it...life doesnt exist.

Really?

Cool. My quarter is now worth a million dollars.

Wow, that was easy

 

[SweetSue92]

You're invoking rationalism but then contradicting it in the same post. If your life has objective, rational value than that value exists across all time and places. If not, then you're just comparing ice cream flavors, basically--you're polling opinions.

The fact is that you cannot assert that your life has any intrinsic worth from your worldview. You can FEEL it has worth; you can WANT it to have worth. You can poll your kids, your dog, or the mushrooms in your backyard to see if it has worth. But it doesn't matter. You, me, all of us are "molecules in motion"--we are all essentially worthless. You have no RATIONAL case for your worthiness.

value is subjective, i never said differently. Also, rationality can be used for literally anything, so to say that one shouldnt..or couldnt...invoke it when determining value is just plain ******* stupid.

In your worldview value must be subjective.

It is absolutely not in mine.

The definition of value inherently MAKES it subjective. Something cannot have "value" independent of a thinking agent (subject) "valuing" said something.

Even if you ascertain value "from God," god is a subject and the value is subjective...its what he determines.

Just like I determine my own. And I alone determine how much I personally value "mushrooms."

But you are not God. You do not have all knowledge and all power, and you certainly did not create the universe.

In other words. You might not personally value mushrooms, and may not choose to eat them, and may even stop your friends and family from eating them. You could make your life's quest eradicating mushrooms from the face of the earth and not even make a dent.

God is objective because He is the creator of mushrooms. IOW He IS the Truth about mushrooms. And all things.

Thats an assertion, and an opinion based of said assertion. Not compelling this court, sorry.

If God exists He is the arbiter of value, just like the exchange/traders are the arbiters of monetary value.

You can pretend other values, like I can pretend my quarter is worth a million dollars. But it isn't going to get me very far.

 

[ding]

Actually intrinsic value is anything but subjective.

The numerical representation of intrinsic value is subjective.

 

[SweetSue92]

In your worldview value must be subjective.

It is absolutely not in mine.

The definition of value inherently MAKES it subjective. Something cannot have "value" independent of a thinking agent (subject) "valuing" said something.

Even if you ascertain value "from God," god is a subject and the value is subjective...its what he determines.

Just like I determine my own. And I alone determine how much I personally value "mushrooms."

But you are not God. You do not have all knowledge and all power, and you certainly did not create the universe.

In other words. You might not personally value mushrooms, and may not choose to eat them, and may even stop your friends and family from eating them. You could make your life's quest eradicating mushrooms from the face of the earth and not even make a dent.

God is objective because He is the creator of mushrooms. IOW He IS the Truth about mushrooms. And all things.

Thats an assertion, and an opinion based of said assertion. Not compelling this court, sorry.

If God exists He is the arbiter of value, just like the exchange/traders are the arbiters of monetary value.

You can pretend other values, like I can pretend my quarter is worth a million dollars. But it isn't going to get me very far.

Cool assertions, but assertions are not rational arguments.

If god assigns value, it is subjective to his preferences.

If humans assign value, it is subjective to our preferences.

Value is something a rational agent decides, its a concept ~ not an actual "thing" just like numbers DESCRIBE, theyre not ACTUAL things

So nothing is objective in your worldview.

So here we have a Pilate, asking "What is truth?"....while looking Truth in the eye.

Tragic. But now it happens all the time.

 

[ding]

The definition of value inherently MAKES it subjective. Something cannot have "value" independent of a thinking agent (subject) "valuing" said something.

Even if you ascertain value "from God," god is a subject and the value is subjective...its what he determines.

Just like I determine my own. And I alone determine how much I personally value "mushrooms."

But you are not God. You do not have all knowledge and all power, and you certainly did not create the universe.

In other words. You might not personally value mushrooms, and may not choose to eat them, and may even stop your friends and family from eating them. You could make your life's quest eradicating mushrooms from the face of the earth and not even make a dent.

God is objective because He is the creator of mushrooms. IOW He IS the Truth about mushrooms. And all things.

Thats an assertion, and an opinion based of said assertion. Not compelling this court, sorry.

If God exists He is the arbiter of value, just like the exchange/traders are the arbiters of monetary value.

You can pretend other values, like I can pretend my quarter is worth a million dollars. But it isn't going to get me very far.

Cool assertions, but assertions are not rational arguments.

If god assigns value, it is subjective to his preferences.

If humans assign value, it is subjective to our preferences.

Value is something a rational agent decides, its a concept ~ not an actual "thing" just like numbers DESCRIBE, theyre not ACTUAL things

So nothing is objective in your worldview.

So here we have a Pilate, asking "What is truth?"....while looking Truth in the eye.

Tragic. But now it happens all the time.

Truth is discovered. Often times through a conflict and confusion process.

Once discovered it is known that it was always that way and will always be that way. In other words, truth is eternal and unchanging.

Hence, ancient man’s belief that God is truth.

 

[ding]

Interestingly enough the only solution to what came first that breaks out of the endless regression of what came before that is something which is eternal and unchanging.

And since truth is intangible there are no laws of nature which preclude truth from existing outside of space and time.

 

[SweetSue92]

But you are not God. You do not have all knowledge and all power, and you certainly did not create the universe.

In other words. You might not personally value mushrooms, and may not choose to eat them, and may even stop your friends and family from eating them. You could make your life's quest eradicating mushrooms from the face of the earth and not even make a dent.

God is objective because He is the creator of mushrooms. IOW He IS the Truth about mushrooms. And all things.

Thats an assertion, and an opinion based of said assertion. Not compelling this court, sorry.

If God exists He is the arbiter of value, just like the exchange/traders are the arbiters of monetary value.

You can pretend other values, like I can pretend my quarter is worth a million dollars. But it isn't going to get me very far.

Cool assertions, but assertions are not rational arguments.

If god assigns value, it is subjective to his preferences.

If humans assign value, it is subjective to our preferences.

Value is something a rational agent decides, its a concept ~ not an actual "thing" just like numbers DESCRIBE, theyre not ACTUAL things

So nothing is objective in your worldview.

So here we have a Pilate, asking "What is truth?"....while looking Truth in the eye.

Tragic. But now it happens all the time.

Truth is discovered. Often times through a conflict and confusion process.

Once discovered it is known that it was always that way and will always be that way. In other words, truth is eternal and unchanging.

Hence, ancient man’s belief that God is truth.

If truth is truth it doesn't matter how you come upon it. The "journey" is insignificant. It is. You can climb it or bash your head against it or shipwreck against it. So what. It still is. It might change YOU. It does nothing to the truth.

Don't overplay your hand here. Or humanity's hand.

 

[SweetSue92]

But you are not God. You do not have all knowledge and all power, and you certainly did not create the universe.

In other words. You might not personally value mushrooms, and may not choose to eat them, and may even stop your friends and family from eating them. You could make your life's quest eradicating mushrooms from the face of the earth and not even make a dent.

God is objective because He is the creator of mushrooms. IOW He IS the Truth about mushrooms. And all things.

Thats an assertion, and an opinion based of said assertion. Not compelling this court, sorry.

If God exists He is the arbiter of value, just like the exchange/traders are the arbiters of monetary value.

You can pretend other values, like I can pretend my quarter is worth a million dollars. But it isn't going to get me very far.

Cool assertions, but assertions are not rational arguments.

If god assigns value, it is subjective to his preferences.

If humans assign value, it is subjective to our preferences.

Value is something a rational agent decides, its a concept ~ not an actual "thing" just like numbers DESCRIBE, theyre not ACTUAL things

So nothing is objective in your worldview.

So here we have a Pilate, asking "What is truth?"....while looking Truth in the eye.

Tragic. But now it happens all the time.

No, thats a false inference. My worldview is not my view on "value," and vice versa. Of course things are objective in my worldview. I know for a fact, for example, that I think.

Yes, but again. God, the ultimate value giver, bases those values on ultimate and objective truths. Sorry you disagree.

 

[ding]

Thats an assertion, and an opinion based of said assertion. Not compelling this court, sorry.

If God exists He is the arbiter of value, just like the exchange/traders are the arbiters of monetary value.

You can pretend other values, like I can pretend my quarter is worth a million dollars. But it isn't going to get me very far.

Cool assertions, but assertions are not rational arguments.

If god assigns value, it is subjective to his preferences.

If humans assign value, it is subjective to our preferences.

Value is something a rational agent decides, its a concept ~ not an actual "thing" just like numbers DESCRIBE, theyre not ACTUAL things

So nothing is objective in your worldview.

So here we have a Pilate, asking "What is truth?"....while looking Truth in the eye.

Tragic. But now it happens all the time.

Truth is discovered. Often times through a conflict and confusion process.

Once discovered it is known that it was always that way and will always be that way. In other words, truth is eternal and unchanging.

Hence, ancient man’s belief that God is truth.

If truth is truth it doesn't matter how you come upon it. The "journey" is insignificant. It is. You can climb it or bash your head against it or shipwreck against it. So what. It still is. It might change YOU. It does nothing to the truth.

Don't overplay your hand here. Or humanity's hand.

You are correct that the most important part is that it is eventually discovered but it can also be lost once it is found.

To say it doesn’t matter how it is discovered though is a stretch. I believe it does matter.

For one it requires certain attributes which can be cultivated. The more we cultivate those attributes the better versions of ourself we can become. For another it opens the door for learning and teaching moments. It’s pretty important to be able to logically analyze how things got sideways so that it is easier to put things right and prevent slippage in the future.

 

[SweetSue92]

If God exists He is the arbiter of value, just like the exchange/traders are the arbiters of monetary value.

You can pretend other values, like I can pretend my quarter is worth a million dollars. But it isn't going to get me very far.

Cool assertions, but assertions are not rational arguments.

If god assigns value, it is subjective to his preferences.

If humans assign value, it is subjective to our preferences.

Value is something a rational agent decides, its a concept ~ not an actual "thing" just like numbers DESCRIBE, theyre not ACTUAL things

So nothing is objective in your worldview.

So here we have a Pilate, asking "What is truth?"....while looking Truth in the eye.

Tragic. But now it happens all the time.

Truth is discovered. Often times through a conflict and confusion process.

Once discovered it is known that it was always that way and will always be that way. In other words, truth is eternal and unchanging.

Hence, ancient man’s belief that God is truth.

If truth is truth it doesn't matter how you come upon it. The "journey" is insignificant. It is. You can climb it or bash your head against it or shipwreck against it. So what. It still is. It might change YOU. It does nothing to the truth.

Don't overplay your hand here. Or humanity's hand.

You are correct that the most important part is that it is eventually discovered but it can also be lost once it is found.

To say it doesn’t matter how it is discovered though is a stretch. I believe it does matter.

For one it requires certain attributes which can be cultivated. The more we cultivate those attributes the better versions of ourself we can become. For another it opens the door for learning and teaching moments. It’s pretty important to be able to logically analyze how things got sideways so that it is easier to put things right and prevent slippage in the future.

All of that is modern man's ego. And our ego, trust me, is big enough.

The truth is much more important than whatever journey we took to get to it. We are forever fixated on the journey. It's part of the reason we're in the mess we're in now.

 

[ding]

Cool assertions, but assertions are not rational arguments.

If god assigns value, it is subjective to his preferences.

If humans assign value, it is subjective to our preferences.

Value is something a rational agent decides, its a concept ~ not an actual "thing" just like numbers DESCRIBE, theyre not ACTUAL things

So nothing is objective in your worldview.

So here we have a Pilate, asking "What is truth?"....while looking Truth in the eye.

Tragic. But now it happens all the time.

Truth is discovered. Often times through a conflict and confusion process.

Once discovered it is known that it was always that way and will always be that way. In other words, truth is eternal and unchanging.

Hence, ancient man’s belief that God is truth.

If truth is truth it doesn't matter how you come upon it. The "journey" is insignificant. It is. You can climb it or bash your head against it or shipwreck against it. So what. It still is. It might change YOU. It does nothing to the truth.

Don't overplay your hand here. Or humanity's hand.

You are correct that the most important part is that it is eventually discovered but it can also be lost once it is found.

To say it doesn’t matter how it is discovered though is a stretch. I believe it does matter.

For one it requires certain attributes which can be cultivated. The more we cultivate those attributes the better versions of ourself we can become. For another it opens the door for learning and teaching moments. It’s pretty important to be able to logically analyze how things got sideways so that it is easier to put things right and prevent slippage in the future.

All of that is modern man's ego. And our ego, trust me, is big enough.

The truth is much more important than whatever journey we took to get to it. We are forever fixated on the journey. It's part of the reason we're in the mess we're in now.

Let me put this in a Biblical perspective for you so that it might be easier to relate to.

When man becomes satisfied he becomes proud and forgets God’s ways. Then he fails and suffers. But from that suffering he is forced to return to God’s successful ways and he rises again. Only to later become satisfied and proud and begin the cycle anew. This is literally the story of the OT.

So is it important to understand how truth is arrived at? Because if one does not understand this cycle - which is a long wavelength cycle - then he is doomed to repeat it over and over again.