Dark Matter; Real? Or Imagined?

[ReinyDays]

I suspect dark matter is just the current iteration of the Ptolemaic epicycle...a hypotheses that fits observation but is likely erroneous due to processes that are not yet discovered or properly understood.

Not exactly ... epicycles programmed onto a dedicated modern computer will produce accurate results ... but epicycles don't explain any physics ... it's just a mathematical construction ...

Dark matter is a little above that as it does explain some physics ... the extra gravity holds galaxies together when they should be flying apart ... the nature of dark matter remains a mystery ... but it's still slightly better than just mathematical coincidence ...

Also, we do have an observation that seems to confirm some manner of "extra" material in the universe that we can't see ... as galaxies collide, the true center of gravity lags behind the apparent center of gravity ... "as though" light matter is more free to collect whereas dark matter being denser has less freedom to collect ... if we agree this evidence is weak (or very weak) ... we still have more evidence than epicycles ... alas, we have no evidence of any kind that epicycles exist ...

Modified General Relativity is a proposal that takes what we see in these galaxies and create a mathematical function to fit the data ... it's very compelling as it is a perfect predictor of the data we have ... i.e. If A, then A ... so we can dispense with this mythological dark matter nonsense ... i.e. If 0, then A ... because that second logical statement isn't even wrong ...

 

[james bond]

So the answer is no. You don't know how dark matter is supposedly created.

Even I know how dark matter is supposedly created.

Dark matter is created by the expansion of the universe. Such that as the volume grows the added volume was not perfectly empty. So as the universe continues to expand, the amount of dark matter increases proportionately.

So all of my questions still stand. And have not been answered.

Dark matter isn't just created by the expansion of the universe as you claim. It is the expansion of spacetime. Spacetime is what creates the dark matter. It also destroys the dark matter so the expansion of spacetime continually creates and destroys dark matter. You talked about the creation and destruction of the virtual particles, but attribute it an expansion of space which isn't correct.

 

[james bond]

So to answer your questions:
>>What type of matter is dark matter?
Of which particles consist dark matter?
How does dark matter arise?
What are the evidences of dark matter?<<

Dark matter is virtual particles.
Dark matter consists of quarks.
Dark matter is created by spacetime and its expansion.
The evidence for dark matter was found by Einstein in that any physical object, i.e. mass, distorts the grid of space. Even virtual matter bends spacetime, and spacetime tells the matter how to move. We see the evidence as gravitational waves.

 

[james bond]

Actually they aren't. All matter is energy. The matter in our universe began as energy (i.e. subatomic particles) and then quickly formed hydrogen and helium. Dark matter also starts off as energy. The problem is that they aren't very clear which particles form the dark energy which later becomes dark matter.

True, but I think LHC scientists are starting to identify different types of quarks that form quarks and antiquarks.

 

[ReinyDays]

True, but I think LHC scientists are starting to identify different types of quarks that form quarks and antiquarks.

Buzz ... wrong ... all the particles predicted by the Standard Model have been found ... and no particles have ever been found to lies outside the Standard Model ... complete gibberish about Space/Time ... the primary characteristic of dark matter is that is doesn't interact with electromagnetic radiation ... it's "dark" ... are you just creating matter out of nothing? ... that violates the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy ... E = mc^2 ...

Your ideas here are no better than perpetual motion ... show me how you demonstrate these claims you've made ...

 

[ding]

So the answer is no. You don't know how dark matter is supposedly created.

Even I know how dark matter is supposedly created.

Dark matter is created by the expansion of the universe. Such that as the volume grows the added volume was not perfectly empty. So as the universe continues to expand, the amount of dark matter increases proportionately.

So all of my questions still stand. And have not been answered.

Dark matter isn't just created by the expansion of the universe as you claim. It is the expansion of spacetime. Spacetime is what creates the dark matter. It also destroys the dark matter so the expansion of spacetime continually creates and destroys dark matter. You talked about the creation and destruction of the virtual particles, but attribute it an expansion of space which isn't correct.

I haven't claimed anything. I presented the claim of others. And I don't accept your explanation either.

I did not talk about the creation and destruction of virtual particles. I talked about the creation of anti-matter and matter particles - which by the way is the generally accepted belief within science - and the mutual annihilation of anti-matter and matter particles. And I never attributed the creation of anti-matter and matter particles with the expansion of space. It is the other way around.

It is getting really old having to correct your misstatements about what I have said.

 

[ding]

Actually they aren't. All matter is energy. The matter in our universe began as energy (i.e. subatomic particles) and then quickly formed hydrogen and helium. Dark matter also starts off as energy. The problem is that they aren't very clear which particles form the dark energy which later becomes dark matter.

True, but I think LHC scientists are starting to identify different types of quarks that form quarks and antiquarks.

Show me.

 

[Robert Urbanek]

Given the massive power and influence of dark matter and dark energy, can there be any doubt that the universe is governed by the Prince of Darkness?

 

[james bond]

So the answer is no. You don't know how dark matter is supposedly created.

Even I know how dark matter is supposedly created.

Dark matter is created by the expansion of the universe. Such that as the volume grows the added volume was not perfectly empty. So as the universe continues to expand, the amount of dark matter increases proportionately.

So all of my questions still stand. And have not been answered.

Dark matter isn't just created by the expansion of the universe as you claim. It is the expansion of spacetime. Spacetime is what creates the dark matter. It also destroys the dark matter so the expansion of spacetime continually creates and destroys dark matter. You talked about the creation and destruction of the virtual particles, but attribute it an expansion of space which isn't correct.

I haven't claimed anything. I presented the claim of others. And I don't accept your explanation either.

I did not talk about the creation and destruction of virtual particles. I talked about the creation of anti-matter and matter particles - which by the way is the generally accepted belief within science - and the mutual annihilation of anti-matter and matter particles. And I never attributed the creation of anti-matter and matter particles with the expansion of space. It is the other way around.

It is getting really old having to correct your misstatements about what I have said.

Now, you're backing down. You claimed you knew how dark matter is created through the expansion of the universe. I just made it clearer in that it is the expansion of spacetime. Next, you talk about how this spacetime in the universe contains matter and antimatter. That creates the destruction of the virtual particles. We have both creation and destruction in the expansion of spacetime.

>>It is getting really old having to correct your misstatements about what I have said.<<

First, when have we discussed this before?

Now, you're saying I made misstatements and that you're correcting it based on that which wasn't your claim but the claim of others. If they're the claim of others then you can't say my claims are the ones that need correction. That isn't how science works. Instead, I presented what LHC found with the quarks.

You asked questions. I provided some answers. Why don't you discuss that?

 

[james bond]

Actually they aren't. All matter is energy. The matter in our universe began as energy (i.e. subatomic particles) and then quickly formed hydrogen and helium. Dark matter also starts off as energy. The problem is that they aren't very clear which particles form the dark energy which later becomes dark matter.

True, but I think LHC scientists are starting to identify different types of quarks that form quarks and antiquarks.

Show me.

First, it isn't just the claim of others or those of scientists working on dark matter, dark energy, and virtual particles. Laypeople are starting to understand this stuff like they learned about protons, electrons, and neutrons. Laypeople are learning from it as to how dark matter and dark energy are formed and destroyed with the expanison of spacetime. What I am not certain is how to describe what happens with the cosmology. We see galaxies being caught in the expansion. What is happening to them? Are they expanding, too, like the balloon hypothesis? Instead, we see the celestial bodies rocketing away from us. We see collisions of entire galaxies. What is happening there? What are we seeing?

Subatomic particle - Quarks, Hadrons, Leptons

Subatomic particle - Quarks, Hadrons, Leptons: The discovery of the pion in 1947 seemed to restore order to the study of particle physics, but this order did not last long. Later in the year Clifford Butler and George Rochester, two British physicists studying cosmic rays, discovered the first...

www.britannica.com

So, we should be able to answer your questions and discuss these things as it isn't exotic science anymore like it was ten years ago.

With LHC, we have this from last month.

Large Hadron Collider Beauty Discovers First “Open-Charm” Tetraquark

The particle, which has been called X(2900), was detected by analyzing all the data LHCb has recorded so far from collisions at CERN’s Large Hadron Collider. The LHCb experiment at CERN has developed a penchant for finding exotic combinations of quarks, the elementary particles that come together

scitechdaily.com

 

[james bond]

Given the massive power and influence of dark matter and dark energy, can there be any doubt that the universe is governed by the Prince of Darkness?

dark just means the unknown. While dark energy could be associated with Satan, it is more likely associated with God as he who expands the heavens.

 

[ding]

So the answer is no. You don't know how dark matter is supposedly created.

Even I know how dark matter is supposedly created.

Dark matter is created by the expansion of the universe. Such that as the volume grows the added volume was not perfectly empty. So as the universe continues to expand, the amount of dark matter increases proportionately.

So all of my questions still stand. And have not been answered.

Dark matter isn't just created by the expansion of the universe as you claim. It is the expansion of spacetime. Spacetime is what creates the dark matter. It also destroys the dark matter so the expansion of spacetime continually creates and destroys dark matter. You talked about the creation and destruction of the virtual particles, but attribute it an expansion of space which isn't correct.

I haven't claimed anything. I presented the claim of others. And I don't accept your explanation either.

I did not talk about the creation and destruction of virtual particles. I talked about the creation of anti-matter and matter particles - which by the way is the generally accepted belief within science - and the mutual annihilation of anti-matter and matter particles. And I never attributed the creation of anti-matter and matter particles with the expansion of space. It is the other way around.

It is getting really old having to correct your misstatements about what I have said.

Now, you're backing down. You claimed you knew how dark matter is created through the expansion of the universe. I just made it clearer in that it is the expansion of spacetime. Next, you talk about how this spacetime in the universe contains matter and antimatter. That creates the destruction of the virtual particles. We have both creation and destruction in the expansion of spacetime.

>>It is getting really old having to correct your misstatements about what I have said.<<

First, when have we discussed this before?

Now, you're saying I made misstatements and that you're correcting it based on that which wasn't your claim but the claim of others. If they're the claim of others then you can't say my claims are the ones that need correction. That isn't how science works. Instead, I presented what LHC found with the quarks.

You asked questions. I provided some answers. Why don't you discuss that?

Good Lord, you are an idiot. Show me where you think I said it and I'll show you why you are an idiot.

 

[ding]

Actually they aren't. All matter is energy. The matter in our universe began as energy (i.e. subatomic particles) and then quickly formed hydrogen and helium. Dark matter also starts off as energy. The problem is that they aren't very clear which particles form the dark energy which later becomes dark matter.

True, but I think LHC scientists are starting to identify different types of quarks that form quarks and antiquarks.

Show me.

First, it isn't just the claim of others or those of scientists working on dark matter, dark energy, and virtual particles. Laypeople are starting to understand this stuff like they learned about protons, electrons, and neutrons. Laypeople are learning from it as to how dark matter and dark energy are formed and destroyed with the expanison of spacetime. What I am not certain is how to describe what happens with the cosmology. We see galaxies being caught in the expansion. What is happening to them? Are they expanding, too, like the balloon hypothesis? Instead, we see the celestial bodies rocketing away from us. We see collisions of entire galaxies. What is happening there? What are we seeing?

Subatomic particle - Quarks, Hadrons, Leptons

Subatomic particle - Quarks, Hadrons, Leptons: The discovery of the pion in 1947 seemed to restore order to the study of particle physics, but this order did not last long. Later in the year Clifford Butler and George Rochester, two British physicists studying cosmic rays, discovered the first...

www.britannica.com

So, we should be able to answer your questions and discuss these things as it isn't exotic science anymore like it was ten years ago.

With LHC, we have this from last month.

Large Hadron Collider Beauty Discovers First “Open-Charm” Tetraquark

The particle, which has been called X(2900), was detected by analyzing all the data LHCb has recorded so far from collisions at CERN’s Large Hadron Collider. The LHCb experiment at CERN has developed a penchant for finding exotic combinations of quarks, the elementary particles that come together

scitechdaily.com

You think everything is less than 6000 years old so it's not really possible for me to discuss science with you.

 

[james bond]

Actually they aren't. All matter is energy. The matter in our universe began as energy (i.e. subatomic particles) and then quickly formed hydrogen and helium. Dark matter also starts off as energy. The problem is that they aren't very clear which particles form the dark energy which later becomes dark matter.

True, but I think LHC scientists are starting to identify different types of quarks that form quarks and antiquarks.

Show me.

First, it isn't just the claim of others or those of scientists working on dark matter, dark energy, and virtual particles. Laypeople are starting to understand this stuff like they learned about protons, electrons, and neutrons. Laypeople are learning from it as to how dark matter and dark energy are formed and destroyed with the expanison of spacetime. What I am not certain is how to describe what happens with the cosmology. We see galaxies being caught in the expansion. What is happening to them? Are they expanding, too, like the balloon hypothesis? Instead, we see the celestial bodies rocketing away from us. We see collisions of entire galaxies. What is happening there? What are we seeing?

Subatomic particle - Quarks, Hadrons, Leptons

Subatomic particle - Quarks, Hadrons, Leptons: The discovery of the pion in 1947 seemed to restore order to the study of particle physics, but this order did not last long. Later in the year Clifford Butler and George Rochester, two British physicists studying cosmic rays, discovered the first...

www.britannica.com

So, we should be able to answer your questions and discuss these things as it isn't exotic science anymore like it was ten years ago.

With LHC, we have this from last month.

Large Hadron Collider Beauty Discovers First “Open-Charm” Tetraquark

The particle, which has been called X(2900), was detected by analyzing all the data LHCb has recorded so far from collisions at CERN’s Large Hadron Collider. The LHCb experiment at CERN has developed a penchant for finding exotic combinations of quarks, the elementary particles that come together

scitechdaily.com

You think everything is less than 6000 years old so it's not really possible for me to discuss science with you.

Dark matter is arguable, but the Earth is young around 6000 years old. It shows you are running away from true science.

 

[james bond]

Wider net to be cast for finding dark matter. The work for non-WIMP dark matter.

'On the collider front, the LHC researchers have begun to investigate some of these new possibilities. For example, they have started looking at the hypothesis that dark matter is part of a larger dark sector with several new types of dark particles. These dark-sector particles could include a dark-matter equivalent of the photon, the dark photon, which would interact with the other dark-sector particles as well as the known particles, and long-lived particles, which are also predicted by SUSY models.

"Dark-sector scenarios provide a new set of experimental signatures, and this is a new playground for LHC physicists," says Doglioni.

"We are now expanding upon the experimental methods that we are familiar with, so we can try to catch rare and unusual signals buried in large backgrounds. Moreover, many other current and planned experiments are also targeting dark sectors and particles interacting more feebly than WIMPs. Some of these experiments, such as the newly approved FASER experiment, are sharing knowledge, technology and even accelerator complex with the main LHC experiments, and they will complement the reach of LHC searches for non-WIMP dark matter, as shown by the CERN Physics Beyond Colliders initiative."'

Breaking new ground in the search for dark matter

Our fourth story in the LHC Physics at Ten series discusses the LHC’s hunt for the hypothetical particle that may make up dark matter

home.cern

Search for WIMP dark matter

"Crews working on the largest U.S. experiment designed to directly detect dark matter completed a major milestone last month, and are now turning their sights toward startup after experiencing some delays due to global pandemic precautions.

U.S. Department of Energy officials on Sept. 21 formally signed off on project completion for LUX-ZEPLIN, or LZ: an ultrasensitive experiment that will use 10 metric tons of liquid xenon to hunt for signals of interactions with theorized dark matter particles called WIMPs, or weakly interacting massive particles. DOE's project completion milestone is called Critical Decision 4, or CD-4.

Dark matter makes up an estimated 85 percent of all matter in the universe. We know it's there because of its observed gravitational effects on normal matter, but we don't yet know what it is. LZ is designed to detect the two flashes of light that occur if a WIMP interacts with the nucleus of a xenon atom.

"We are completing commissioning of the detector—the testing phase—and will be looking at LZ data next year," said Simon Fiorucci, LZ operations manager and a physicist at the DOE's Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab), which is the lead institution for the LZ collaboration.

LZ is installed nearly a mile below ground at the Sanford Underground Research Facility (Sanford Lab) in Lead, South Dakota. Its depth provides natural shielding against the constant shower of cosmic rays at the Earth's surface, which are a source of background particle "noise" that could drown out the WIMP interaction signals scientists are searching for. LZ is also built from components that have been individually selected and tested to be low in naturally occurring radiation that could also complicate the search."

A major milestone for an underground dark matter search experiment

Crews working on the largest U.S. experiment designed to directly detect dark matter completed a major milestone last month, and are now turning their sights toward startup after experiencing some delays due to global pandemic precautions.

phys.org

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

P

....

What are the evidences of dark matter?

Still what Vera Rubin found out in context of the rotation of the galaxy Andromeda is a very impressing question, which makes plaubsible the existence of "dark matter" (better to say: "unknown mass" - or "still unknown source of something what looks like gravitational force").

Here an example for the galaxy Messier 33:

Rotation curve of spiral galaxy Messier 33 (yellow and blue points with error bars), and a predicted one from distribution of the visible matter (gray line). The discrepancy between the two curves can be accounted for by adding a dark matter halo surrounding the galaxy.

Otherwise known as a fudge factor.

May I ask, why you say such an unbelievable stupid nonsense? Do you love pub brawls?

The path velocity far from the bulge of a galaxy should be proportional in an idealized Kepler system to the squareroot of the reziprocal radius. Why is it not?

What type of matter is dark matter?
Of which particles consist dark matter?
How does dark matter arise?
What are the evidences of dark matter?

You don't understand what you ask and why you ask this. Think about what I said - or let it be.

I do understand what I ask and why I ask it. If they are correct and dark matter accounts for 85% of the matter in the universe then these are important questions.

no comment

Hence, it's a fudge factor.

What's nonsense. To say so has more to do with psychology, sociology and politics than mathematics and physics.

Short: Explain why in a galaxy the path velocity is not proportional to ~ (1/radius)^1/2. Why exists such a huge difference in the expected values of an ideal Kepler system and the real measured values? Which other kind of formula is to use? "Dark matter" means in this context - as far as I am able to see - the formulas are correct, but there exists in reality indeed an additional gravity force. To use the word "dark" instead of "unknown" is perhaps just simple a poetical mistake. You can use instead of "dark matter" also an expression like "unknown gravity force" - or "gravity force, which comes from something, what we still don't know".

Which particles make up dark matter?

We don't.know. in fact, it is only called "matter" for convenience, to denote the fact that it appears to be interacting via gravity. "Matter" may be a misnomer. Scientists know this.

 

[MarathonMike]

My theory is the universe is contained within a giant invisible sphere that has mass so great it is "pulling" all the matter in the universe towards itself. Hey, that's just as plausible as dark matter!

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

My theory is the universe is contained within a giant invisible sphere that has mass so great it is "pulling" all the matter in the universe towards itself. Hey, that's just as plausible as dark matter!

Unfortunately no, it isn't, as it misses the entire point of why dark matter had to be postulated. But thanks anyway.

 

[Turtlesoup]

What type of matter is dark matter?
Of which particles consist dark matter?
How does dark matter arise?
What are the evidences of dark matter?

Should probably stick to the question of how it arises and then ask more questions.

So discuss alternate hypothosis with regard to empty space. Meanning challenge the cosmological constant in which Einsteins current model functions. Probably would wanna kick around the theory of electromagnetism as an ice breaker. Knawmean?

I understand how the concept of dark matter / dark energy arose. And I understand the theory of how it is "created" so to speak.

What I am trying to understand is if it is materially different than the matter that formed the universe.

Maybe Dark matter is true NOTHINGNESS.....the absence of anything

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

What type of matter is dark matter?
Of which particles consist dark matter?
How does dark matter arise?
What are the evidences of dark matter?

Should probably stick to the question of how it arises and then ask more questions.

So discuss alternate hypothosis with regard to empty space. Meanning challenge the cosmological constant in which Einsteins current model functions. Probably would wanna kick around the theory of electromagnetism as an ice breaker. Knawmean?

I understand how the concept of dark matter / dark energy arose. And I understand the theory of how it is "created" so to speak.

What I am trying to understand is if it is materially different than the matter that formed the universe.

Maybe Dark matter is true NOTHINGNESS.....the absence of anything

Then you have to explain its boundaries. Why wouldn't the patches of nothing just diffuse across space and become filled with something? Fascinating idea though.