Cops shot in Brussels...but...they have gun control..right?

[2aguy]

Wrong....Puerto Rico is an island......Mexico has strict gun control laws......they get most of their cartel guns from China and Europe, not the U.S......

Their governments are very capable of disarming law abiding citizens..which they have....the criminals are the ones who get the guns...easily.

The overwhelming majority of guns used by criminals in Mexico and Puerto Rico and the cartels come from the U.S. Are you stoned?

Here you go...

Where Drug Cartels Really Get Their Arms

The Mexican government and the media have consistently blamed the U.S. for the vicious drug war in Mexico that has resulted in over 35,000 deaths since late 2006. A diplomatic cable released by Wikileaks will disappoint them, as it shows that 90 percent of the heavy weapons used by the drug cartels come from Central America. The strength of the drug cartels is more attributable to the Mexican government’s inefficiencies than America’s gun laws or consumption of narcotics.

Desperate technicalities and speculations. The cold hard facts say that 70% of weapons seized from Mexican Cartels come from the United States. Which should not be the least bit surprising to anybody with a shred of common sense considering the U.S. has over 400 million guns and has no idea where almost all of them are.

In Mexico, Tens Of Thousands Of Illegal Guns Come From The U.S.

Wrong......that is guns they are able to trace.......you really need to dig deeper....

Why? The answer is plain as day. The U.S. is flooded with 400 million+ guns. The border, especially according to conservatives like yourself, is wide open. 70% of all recovered Mexican Cartel guns were able to be traced to the U.S. This isn't rocket science.

A bunch of nutters present wild speculations about the Jews or U.S. government being behind 9/11. That doesn't make them likely to be right. So don't expect me to be swayed by your wild speculations.

Here....please try to absorb this truth through your anti gun hysteria...

As Matt Allen, Special Agent of Immigration Customs and Enforcement explained to FoxNews.com, “[N]ot every weapon seized in Mexico has a serial number on it that would make it traceable, and the U.S. effort to trace weapons really only extends to weapons that have been in the U.S. market.” Of the guns sent to the ATF for tracing, a large amount could not be traced and therefore are not accounted for in the statistic.

Guns known to be from domestic sources, like the Mexican police or military, and guns from foreign countries are not submitted.

 

[2aguy]

And in Mexico you don't need a medical exam, or a written exam because you cannot have any guns......and their gun murder rate is higher than ours......dittos Puerto Rico...and island with strict gun controls...and the highest gun murder rate in the world....

Access to guns isn't the issue......icelandic criminals can get around medical exams and written exams the same way criminals do in Europe....I have links where a police officer in Europe points out the book you have to know for the exam to own a gun...and a criminal can get a gun in less than an hour...

Your point about guns being the cause of gun crime is just stupid....if you notice....it isn't ethnic Belgians doing the shooting....it is immigrants....same thing you find with Australia, Britain and the countries all over Europe...they do not share the same cultural value against violence that natural Europeans do...and that is who is committing the gun crime over there....

And the young males raised by single mothers...another group of shooters in Europe...who also do not value the limits placed on shooting other people...which is why in Britain...a country that confiscated their gun...had their gun crime rate, go up 4%.....

And that is also why Australia has seen their gun crime rate go up....another country that confiscated guns......

Access to guns is not he issue....it is the criminal sub culture and their attitude toward murder....

Mexico and Puerto Rico are neighbors of the greatest gun flooding nation on the planet. And their governments are not capable of enforcing gun control. The U.S. has the highest homicide rate in the entire first world, and by embarrassing proportions the highest rate of gun crime in the first world. Maybe the entire world on that second point.

Wrong again...this is a lengthy quote...but the information is important to show how wrong you are...

The Mistake of Only Comparing US Murder Rates to "Developed" Countries

As usual, no reason is given as to why the US should only be compared to “developed” countries, but then Fisher proceeds to add a few non-traditional comparisons to drive home the point as to how violent the US truly is, in his view.

Fisher adds Bulgaria, Turkey, and Chile, which are middle-income countries. And that lets him make this graph:



Why Turkey and Chile and Bulgaria? Well, those countries are OECD members, and many who use the "developed country" moniker often use the OECD members countries as a de facto list of the "true" developed countries. Of course, membership in the OECD is highly political and hardly based on any objective economic or cultural criteria.

But if you're familiar with the OECD, you'll immediately notice a problem with the list Fisher uses. Mexico is an OECD country. So why is Mexico not in this graph?


Well, it's pretty apparent that Mexico was left off the list because to do so would interfere with the point Fisher is trying to make. After all, Mexico — in spite of much more restrictive gun laws — has a murder rate many times larger than the US.

But Fisher has what he thinks is a good excuse for his manipulation here. According to Fisher, the omission is because Mexico “has about triple the U.S. rate due in large part to the ongoing drug war.”

Oh, so every country that has drug war deaths is exempt? Well, then I guess we have to remove the US from the list.

But, of course, the US for some mysterious reason must remain on the list, so, by “developed” country, Fisherreally means “ a country that’s on the OECD list minus any country with a higher murder rate than the US.”

At this point, we're reminded that Fisher (and no one else I’ve ever seen) has made a case for what special magic it is that makes the OECD list the one list of countries to which the US shall be compared.

More Realistic Comparisons Involve a Broader View of the World

Why not use the UN’s human development index instead? That would seem to make at least as much sense if we’re devoted to looking at “developed countries.”

So, let’s do that. Here we see that the OECD’s list contains Turkey, Bulgaria, Mexico, and Chile. So, if we're honest with ourselves, that must mean that other countries with similar human development rankings are also suitable for comparisons to the US.

Well, Turkey and Mexico have HDI numbers at .75. So, let’s include other countries with HDI numbers either similar or higher. That means we should include The Bahamas, Argentina, Costa Rica, Cuba, Panama, Uruguay, Venezuela, Russia, Lithuania, Belarus, Estonia, and Latvia.

You can see where this is going. If we include countries that have HDI numbers similar to — or at least as high as — OECD members Turkey and Mexico, we find that the picture for the United States murder rate looks very different (correctly using murder rates and not gun-deaths rates):

Wow, that US sure has a pretty low murder rate compared to all those countries that are comparable to some OECD members.

In fact, Russia, Costa Rica and Lithuania have all been invited to begin the process of joining the OECD (Russia is on hold for obvious political reasons). But all those countries have higher murder rates than the US. (I wonder what excuse Fisher will manufacture for leaving off those countries after they join the OECD.)

Things get even more interesting if we add American states with low murder rates.



And why not include data from individual states? It has always been extremely imprecise and lazy to talk about the “US murder rate” The US is an immense country with a lot of variety in laws and demographics. (Mexico deserves the same analysis, by the way.)



Many states have murder rates that place them on the short list of low-crime places in the world. Why do we conveniently ignore them?


The US murder rate is being driven up by a few high-murder states such as Maryland, Louisiana, South Carolina, Delaware, and Tennessee. In the spirit of selective use of data, let's just leave those states out of it, and look at some of the low-crime ones:



We see that OECD members Chile and Turkey have murder rates higher than Colorado.


Perhaps they should try adopting Colorado’s laws and allow sale of handguns and semi-automatic rifles to all non-felon adults. That might help them bring their murder rates down a little.

But you know that’s not the conclusion we're supposed to come to.Comparisons can never work in that direction. The comparisons should only be used to compare the US to countries with restrictive gun laws and low murder rates. Comparisons with countries that have restrictive gun laws (and/or few private guns) and murder rates similar to or higher than US rates (i.e., Latin America, the Caribbean and the Baltic States.)

Nevertheless, we have yet to see any objective reason why only OECD countries should be included or why countries similar in the HDI to Turkey and Mexico should be excluded.

But before we wrap up, let’s look at the murder rates in all these countries alongside the number of civilian guns per 100 residents. (The x axis is civilian guns per 100 residents, and the y axis is murder rates in x per 100,000.)

You yourself regularly say that most murders in the US are carried out by criminals so should be discounted.
Your article is accusing others of doing the same thing.

No...I don't say they should be discounted...I say they are not law abiding people....and that allowing law abiding people to own and carry guns does not increase the gun crime rate or the crime rate in general....

after all...more Americans now own and actually carry guns...and our gun murder rate has gone down...right?

if what you believe is true...that would not be possible.....

2012.... 11.1 million Americans carry guns for self defense....our gun murder rate went down...320,000,000 guns in private hands.....

2013... 12.8 million Americans carry guns for self defense...our gun murder rate went down...again

2014.... 13 million Americans carry guns for self defense ....357,000,000 guns in private hands...and our gun murder rate went down...again...

Since the 1990s...more Americans now own and actually carry guns......all 50 states now have some form of concealed or open carry law....and our gun murder rates have gone down.......

How do you explain that if you think the mere presence of guns leads to more gun murder and more crime?

And we are not talking about guns lowering those rates...what this shows is that law abiding people owning and carrying guns does not increase the gun murder rate or the violent crime rate...

Right?

The gun homicide rate barely moved over those years you're talking about.

Wrong...check the CDC table 10 for all those years...I did.....now you can do it......

 

[TheOldSchool]

The overwhelming majority of guns used by criminals in Mexico and Puerto Rico and the cartels come from the U.S. Are you stoned?

Here you go...

Where Drug Cartels Really Get Their Arms

The Mexican government and the media have consistently blamed the U.S. for the vicious drug war in Mexico that has resulted in over 35,000 deaths since late 2006. A diplomatic cable released by Wikileaks will disappoint them, as it shows that 90 percent of the heavy weapons used by the drug cartels come from Central America. The strength of the drug cartels is more attributable to the Mexican government’s inefficiencies than America’s gun laws or consumption of narcotics.

Desperate technicalities and speculations. The cold hard facts say that 70% of weapons seized from Mexican Cartels come from the United States. Which should not be the least bit surprising to anybody with a shred of common sense considering the U.S. has over 400 million guns and has no idea where almost all of them are.

In Mexico, Tens Of Thousands Of Illegal Guns Come From The U.S.

Wrong......that is guns they are able to trace.......you really need to dig deeper....

Why? The answer is plain as day. The U.S. is flooded with 400 million+ guns. The border, especially according to conservatives like yourself, is wide open. 70% of all recovered Mexican Cartel guns were able to be traced to the U.S. This isn't rocket science.

A bunch of nutters present wild speculations about the Jews or U.S. government being behind 9/11. That doesn't make them likely to be right. So don't expect me to be swayed by your wild speculations.

Your number is wrong....it isn't 70% of the total number of guns....please read more carefully....it is 70% of the guns that they are able to trace....most guns in Mexico do not come from the United States...you are wrong...

You have zero evidence. You are ignoring logic. You are ignoring the elephant in the room, a gun crazed nation with 400 million+ guns and an open border as a neighbor, and you think that most guns in Mexico come from the other side of the planet.

You are nuts. And if there's one thing I've learned from you is that there's no point arguing with you. Bye.

 

[2aguy]

Here you go...

Where Drug Cartels Really Get Their Arms

The Mexican government and the media have consistently blamed the U.S. for the vicious drug war in Mexico that has resulted in over 35,000 deaths since late 2006. A diplomatic cable released by Wikileaks will disappoint them, as it shows that 90 percent of the heavy weapons used by the drug cartels come from Central America. The strength of the drug cartels is more attributable to the Mexican government’s inefficiencies than America’s gun laws or consumption of narcotics.

Desperate technicalities and speculations. The cold hard facts say that 70% of weapons seized from Mexican Cartels come from the United States. Which should not be the least bit surprising to anybody with a shred of common sense considering the U.S. has over 400 million guns and has no idea where almost all of them are.

In Mexico, Tens Of Thousands Of Illegal Guns Come From The U.S.

Wrong......that is guns they are able to trace.......you really need to dig deeper....

Why? The answer is plain as day. The U.S. is flooded with 400 million+ guns. The border, especially according to conservatives like yourself, is wide open. 70% of all recovered Mexican Cartel guns were able to be traced to the U.S. This isn't rocket science.

A bunch of nutters present wild speculations about the Jews or U.S. government being behind 9/11. That doesn't make them likely to be right. So don't expect me to be swayed by your wild speculations.

Your number is wrong....it isn't 70% of the total number of guns....please read more carefully....it is 70% of the guns that they are able to trace....most guns in Mexico do not come from the United States...you are wrong...

You have zero evidence. You are ignoring logic. You are ignoring the elephant in the room, a gun crazed nation with 400 million+ guns and an open border as a neighbor, and you think that most guns in Mexico come from the other side of the planet.

You are nuts. And if there's one thing I've learned from you is that there's no point arguing with you. Bye.

It isn't me saying it.....it is actual government law enforcement saying it........what part of that don't you understand...yes...your head is filled with anti gun propaganda and hate...but the truth, facts and reality are true, facts and reality......

 

[2aguy]

Here you go...

Where Drug Cartels Really Get Their Arms

The Mexican government and the media have consistently blamed the U.S. for the vicious drug war in Mexico that has resulted in over 35,000 deaths since late 2006. A diplomatic cable released by Wikileaks will disappoint them, as it shows that 90 percent of the heavy weapons used by the drug cartels come from Central America. The strength of the drug cartels is more attributable to the Mexican government’s inefficiencies than America’s gun laws or consumption of narcotics.

Desperate technicalities and speculations. The cold hard facts say that 70% of weapons seized from Mexican Cartels come from the United States. Which should not be the least bit surprising to anybody with a shred of common sense considering the U.S. has over 400 million guns and has no idea where almost all of them are.

In Mexico, Tens Of Thousands Of Illegal Guns Come From The U.S.

Wrong......that is guns they are able to trace.......you really need to dig deeper....

Why? The answer is plain as day. The U.S. is flooded with 400 million+ guns. The border, especially according to conservatives like yourself, is wide open. 70% of all recovered Mexican Cartel guns were able to be traced to the U.S. This isn't rocket science.

A bunch of nutters present wild speculations about the Jews or U.S. government being behind 9/11. That doesn't make them likely to be right. So don't expect me to be swayed by your wild speculations.

Your number is wrong....it isn't 70% of the total number of guns....please read more carefully....it is 70% of the guns that they are able to trace....most guns in Mexico do not come from the United States...you are wrong...

You have zero evidence. You are ignoring logic. You are ignoring the elephant in the room, a gun crazed nation with 400 million+ guns and an open border as a neighbor, and you think that most guns in Mexico come from the other side of the planet.

You are nuts. And if there's one thing I've learned from you is that there's no point arguing with you. Bye.

Again...another link.....

Mexico's Gun Supply and the 90 Percent Myth

By the Numbers
As we discussed in a previous analysis, the 90 percent number was derived from a June 2009 U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) report to Congress on U.S. efforts to combat arms trafficking to Mexico (see external link).

According to the GAO report, some 30,000 firearms were seized from criminals by Mexican authorities in 2008.



Of these 7,200 guns, only about 4,000 could be traced by the ATF, and of these 4,000, some 3,480 (87 percent) were shown to have come from the United States.

This means that the 87 percent figure relates to the number of weapons submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF that could be successfully traced and not from the total number of weapons seized by Mexican authorities or even from the total number of weapons submitted to the ATF for tracing.

In fact, the 3,480 guns positively traced to the United States equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in Mexico in 2008 and less than 48 percent of all those submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF for tracing.


This means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in Mexico in 2008 were not traced back to the United States.

The remaining 22,800 firearms seized by Mexican authorities in 2008 were not traced for a variety of reasons.

In addition to factors such as bureaucratic barriers and negligence, many of the weapons seized by Mexican authorities either do not bear serial numbers or have had their serial numbers altered or obliterated. It is also important to understand that the Mexican authorities simply don't bother to submit some classes of weapons to the ATF for tracing.

Such weapons include firearms they identify as coming from their own military or police forces, or guns that they can trace back themselves as being sold through the Mexican Defense Department's Arms and Ammunition Marketing Division (UCAM). Likewise, they do not ask ATF to trace military ordnance from third countries like the South Korean fragmentation grenades commonly used in cartel attacks.

 

[forkup]

Firearm death rate U.S.: 10.54/100K

Firearm death rate Belgium: 1.82/100K

Any questions?

Interesting. Yes....Belgiums gun deaths are much lower. They're a much smaller country with MUCH different demographics.

But you know what size/demographics are more comparable to Belgium? Utah. Massachusetts. Connecticut.

Utah: 0.9
Massachusetts: 2.0
Connecticut: 2.7
Belgium: 1.82

Hmmm. Combine those 3 states and their population/demographics/gun murder rate are about identical to Belgium.

WHY IS THAT?
View attachment 67523

I'm curious, I'm from Belgium,how do you think that Utah has the same demographics as Belgium? Second our population density is one of the highest in the world. Comparing those states to Belgium is a fallacy. The last cop killed in action dates from 2010 btw. Now, the base of this OP is basicly that gun control isn't usefull to prevent gun violence. Sorry to tell you guys, but less guns in circulation means less gun deaths,it's that simple. You can't prevent criminals/terrorists to get their hands on guns and thinking that arming your popiluce will somehow make the country safer is foolish. If some lunatic with an ak 47 opens up and I'm armed with a handgun chances are I'm gonna get myself killed. Discretion is the better part of valour in those situations.

 

[g5000]

Firearm death rate U.S.: 10.54/100K

Firearm death rate Belgium: 1.82/100K

Any questions?

Interesting. Yes....Belgiums gun deaths are much lower. They're a much smaller country with MUCH different demographics.

But you know what size/demographics are more comparable to Belgium? Utah. Massachusetts. Connecticut.

Utah: 0.9
Massachusetts: 2.0
Connecticut: 2.7
Belgium: 1.82

Hmmm. Combine those 3 states and their population/demographics/gun murder rate are about identical to Belgium.

WHY IS THAT?
View attachment 67523

Your innumeracy demonstrates you don't know the difference between the number of murders and the rate of murders.

And you do realize that the densely populated states of Connecticut and Massachusetts have some of the strictest gun control laws in the US, right? So you just affirmed my point!

Belgium has almost ten times the population density of Utah.

 

[g5000]

Population density of Belgium: 343/sq. mile

Population density of Massachusetts: 858/sq. mile

Population density of Connecticut: 742/sq. mile

Population density of Utah: 35.3/sq. mile

 

[g5000]

10 states with the strictest gun laws | Deseret News

Massachusetts comes in at 3rd place for most strict gun laws.

Connecticut comes in at 5th.

 

[2aguy]

Firearm death rate U.S.: 10.54/100K

Firearm death rate Belgium: 1.82/100K

Any questions?

Interesting. Yes....Belgiums gun deaths are much lower. They're a much smaller country with MUCH different demographics.

But you know what size/demographics are more comparable to Belgium? Utah. Massachusetts. Connecticut.

Utah: 0.9
Massachusetts: 2.0
Connecticut: 2.7
Belgium: 1.82

Hmmm. Combine those 3 states and their population/demographics/gun murder rate are about identical to Belgium.

WHY IS THAT?
View attachment 67523

I'm curious, I'm from Belgium,how do you think that Utah has the same demographics as Belgium? Second our population density is one of the highest in the world. Comparing those states to Belgium is a fallacy. The last cop killed in action dates from 2010 btw. Now, the base of this OP is basicly that gun control isn't usefull to prevent gun violence. Sorry to tell you guys, but less guns in circulation means less gun deaths,it's that simple. You can't prevent criminals/terrorists to get their hands on guns and thinking that arming your popiluce will somehow make the country safer is foolish. If some lunatic with an ak 47 opens up and I'm armed with a handgun chances are I'm gonna get myself killed. Discretion is the better part of valour in those situations.

that is wrong....we have added guns to our population and our gun murder rate and our gun crime rate went down....countries with strict gun control often times have higher murder rates...I posted the stats.....

 

[2aguy]

Why do they call Brussels "Chicago on the Senne?" because of the gun crime....

How the Brussels Neighborhood of Molenbeek Became a Breeding Ground for Terror

Behind the facades, however, Molenbeek has been in trouble for years. Poverty levels are high, and street and drug crime are common.

With a reputation for gun crime, the media started calling it “Chicago on the Senne” (a reference to the Brusselsriver) as early as 2010.

These problems go hand-in-hand with a bleak outlook for residents. Local Muslims, who form 25 to 30 percent of the area’s population, talk in particular of limited educational and economic opportunities, as well as employment discrimination. As of January this year, 350 Belgian residentsare known to have joined ISIS in Syria—a minuscule fraction of the country’s Muslims, but nonetheless more per capita than any other state in Europe.

 

[2aguy]

And they also have mass shootings...

Jewish Museum of Belgium shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On 24 May 2014, a gunman opened fire at the Jewish Museum of Belgium in Brussels, Belgium, killing four people. Three died at the scene; a fourth was taken to hospital and died on 6 June.[1] The attack is being investigated as terrorism by Belgian authorities.[2]

Again...it isn't how many murders you have...it is wether the criminals decide to commit murder.....and up to now...Belgian criminals haven't been killers...right? But things are changing....

 

[2aguy]

And how did they get grenades? Aren't those illegal in Belgium?

2011 Liège attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On 13 December 2011, a murder–suicide attack took place in the city of Liège in the Wallonia region of Belgium.[3]

The attacker, 33-year-old Nordine Amrani,[4][5] threw grenades and fired an FN FAL[6] rifle at civilians on Saint-Lambert Square. The attack killed six and left 125 others injured; seven of whom suffered serious injuries. Amrani then committed suicide by shooting himself with a revolver. Earlier that day, he had also murdered a woman in his house.

The attack occurred on the same day as the 2011 Florence shootings.

So how did this convicted criminal get the weapons in gun controlled Belgium.....and his prior arrests...also on weapons charges...lots of them....

Are Belgian citizens allowed to have rocket launchers, sniper rifles......

Did gun control stop this guy?

2011 Liège attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Amrani had been released from prison in October 2010. He had been convicted to a 58-month (4 years, 10 months) sentence he received from a Liège court in 2008. The conviction was for possession of thousands of weapons parts, almost 10,000 rounds of ammo, dozens of weapons, including a rocket launcher, assault and sniper rifles, as well as 2,800 cannabis plants, in the context of a criminal conspiracy(association de malfaiteurs). He also had convictions for handling stolen goods and sex offences but had no known links to terror groups.[15]On the day of the attack, Amrani had been summoned for an interview with the police to answer questions about a sexual abuse case.[16]

How did this upstanding citizen get guns in a country of gun control....?

And since guns are easy to get....obviously........the only thing that keeps Belgium from having more mass shootings......their people don't do it........simple dumb luck.........

 

[2aguy]

How do you have a crime wave in Belgium....with guns...?

Breaking News, Analysis, Politics, Blogs, News Photos, Video, Tech Reviews - TIME.com

On a crisp, sunny morning last week, a man strolled into a Brussels courtroom, pulled out a 7.65-mm pistol and shot both the judge and a court clerk in the head before fleeing. The double killing stunned the country, which prides itself on a cozy, tranquil way of life.

Again...their criminals have easy access to guns.....they just don't use them as often to commit murder. What is it about that dynamic that you guys just refuse to understand?