Collective bargaining "rights"??

[JohnnyApplesack]

I'll give that one, bennie boy.

Your assertion that a few thousand (not 70) protesters will bring his "government down" is yet unproven, and likely will never be proven. .[/QUOTE]

You got a crystal ball, or is that just another random thought from your stupid ass?

 

[Hum Dinger]

Wingnuts like to ignore what they don't like in the U.S. Constitution, perhaps instead of just keeping a copy in their back pockets and sitting on it, they should actually read it.

By default, the Constitution grants all rights not enumerated:

Article [IX]
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

perhaps you could enlighten us all with the section that mandates anyone MUST negotiate with a union? Yes you can form one and no-one can stop you. yes you can have as its purpose "collective bargaining", no, you cannot force anyone to bargain with you.

I wasn't aware that there was a UNION NEGOTIATION CLAUSE either...

People have the right to band together and bargain collectively. Most choose to join a Union, if they have that choice. There are plenty of opportunities for non-union teaching jobs in private schools.

The question of the Government being required to negotiate with the unions is moot. It's a battle that's already been fought. When push comes to shove the people that choose to bargain collectively win. Writing it into law is just a recognition of reality.

The fact is that the union workers are NEEDED by the society - and they can shut down that society if they want to. They are way more valuable than wingnuts want to admit.

This whole confrontation is the 1960s revisited.

The result of this is going to be an awakening of the people in the unions to their own real collective power.

That's all that there is to it.

 

[BenNatuf]

Are people so blind that they cannot see what is happening in other parts of the country. The states that are "Right to Work" states are booming, have jobs available and have the lowest tax rates. States that are "Union" are losing population (heading to the states mentioned earlier), taxes are higher and job growth is DEAD!

The unions have long outlived their usefulness.

When there is a better way of doing things looking you right in the eye you need to pay attention.

CHANGE is not a 4 letter word.

What are you high on?!?!

The economies of the Right-to-work states are in the dumps. Only a handful of the industrial centers in the Union States are doing poorly - and those are getting better fast.

Hell, we barely even have a real estate slump here in the Northeast.

The only migration is the elderly - like always - and that just for the weather.

speaking of "high"

The most bankrupt states are California, with $6.8 billion in borrowings, Michigan ($3.4 billion), New York ($2.4 billion), Pennsylvania ($2.2 billion) and Ohio ($1.9 billion).

A Majority Of States Are Now Insolvent: Quantifying The Disastrous Unemployment Situation | zero hedge

 

[Hum Dinger]

All that the unions need to is get the sanitation union to go on strike and it's all over for Walker.

That's the nuke of the union negotiations.

 

[BenNatuf]

Yes it is. They work for the state of Wisconsin.

Pay attention, stupid.

The members work for the state, the "union" doesn't work for anybody and the state is under no legal obligation to negotiate with them.

I already agreed the sate isn't mandated to negotiate with the union.

I also pointed out Walker is afraid to do so, and his fear has produced an uprising in his Capital, with plenty more to come. If he'd like to see his bullshit regime collapse, I say bring it on.

Got it yet?

Odd, the governor is right there to negotiate with, where are the democratic legislators to represent the unions interests in those negotiations?

 

[BenNatuf]

You got a crystal ball, or is that just another random thought from your stupid ass?

Odd, the only one who made a prediction there cleo... would be you.

 

[The T]

All that the unions need to is get the sanitation union to go on strike and it's all over for Walker.

That's the nuke of the union negotiations.

Really? Is this your fianal answer? All it will do is bolster the disgust for Unions in the populace.

But if you feel secure? You just go with this.

 

[Hum Dinger]

Are people so blind that they cannot see what is happening in other parts of the country. The states that are "Right to Work" states are booming, have jobs available and have the lowest tax rates. States that are "Union" are losing population (heading to the states mentioned earlier), taxes are higher and job growth is DEAD!

The unions have long outlived their usefulness.

When there is a better way of doing things looking you right in the eye you need to pay attention.

CHANGE is not a 4 letter word.

What are you high on?!?!

The economies of the Right-to-work states are in the dumps. Only a handful of the industrial centers in the Union States are doing poorly - and those are getting better fast.

Hell, we barely even have a real estate slump here in the Northeast.

The only migration is the elderly - like always - and that just for the weather.

speaking of "high"

The most bankrupt states are California, with $6.8 billion in borrowings, Michigan ($3.4 billion), New York ($2.4 billion), Pennsylvania ($2.2 billion) and Ohio ($1.9 billion).

A Majority Of States Are Now Insolvent: Quantifying The Disastrous Unemployment Situation | zero hedge

So what? Bigger economies have bigger debts. Florida is right up there in debt and foreclosures - and it's a right to work state, as is South Carolina.

You can't compare the economies of California and Wyoming. More people and more industry means more unemployment during economic down turns.

The fact is the economies of the right to work states, for the most part, suck during the best of times.

 

[WorldWatcher]

... the state is under no legal obligation to negotiate with them.

I already agreed the sate isn't mandated to negotiate with the union.

Actually that's not quite true. Under Wisonsin law the state (as the employer) is required to negotiate with valid union representation.

111.84 Unfair labor practices. (1) It is an unfair labor practice
for an employer individually or in concert with others:

<<SNIP>>

(d) To refuse to bargain collectively on matters set forth in s.
111.91 (1) with a representative of a majority of its employees in
an appropriate collective bargaining unit.​

STATE EMPLOYMENT LABOR RELATIONS



>>>>

 

[Hum Dinger]

All that the unions need to is get the sanitation union to go on strike and it's all over for Walker.

That's the nuke of the union negotiations.

Really? Is this your fianal answer? All it will do is bolster the disgust for Unions in the populace.

But if you feel secure? You just go with this.

Hey, I lived in New York back in the 60s & 70s, and it sure was disgusting when the sanitation workers went on strike - it pissed everyone off. Same with the teachers strike and just about every other strike.

But the unions won and that's all there was to it.

Welcome to capitalism! If you don't like economic contension move to China!

The simple truth is that collective bargaining forces management, or the general populace, to realize the true value of the workers. They may not like it, but who gives a shit.

It's better to have people resent you than it is to live in poverty.

 

[Provocateur]

It will be freakin' hilarious if the Dems get booted and Republicans are voted in to replace them.

The Repukes are already in the majority, brainiac.

wow

I'm talking about the Run Forest Run 14 Dems that fled like little girls afraid of the dark.

Hopefully a special election will replace every single one of them.

That will cause libs to go ballistic.


Good times.

 

[Provocateur]

Yes it is. They work for the state of Wisconsin.

Pay attention, stupid.

The members work for the state, the "union" doesn't work for anybody and the state is under no legal obligation to negotiate with them.

I already agreed the sate isn't mandated to negotiate with the union.

I also pointed out Walker is afraid to do so, and his fear has produced an uprising in his Capital, with plenty more to come. If he'd like to see his bullshit regime collapse, I say bring it on.

Got it yet?

The gov now has a "regime"?

I hope you are young and will outgrow your stupidity.

 

[Vel]

... the state is under no legal obligation to negotiate with them.

I already agreed the sate isn't mandated to negotiate with the union.

Actually that's not quite true. Under Wisonsin law the state (as the employer) is required to negotiate with valid union representation.

111.84 Unfair labor practices. (1) It is an unfair labor practice
for an employer individually or in concert with others:

<<SNIP>>

(d) To refuse to bargain collectively on matters set forth in s.
111.91 (1) with a representative of a majority of its employees in
an appropriate collective bargaining unit.​

STATE EMPLOYMENT LABOR RELATIONS



>>>>

That would apply to contract disputes but would have no bearing on the legislative process. The state is not required to consult the union in regards to pending legislation. The union remedy to legislation they don't like would lie with the judicial system.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I already agreed the sate isn't mandated to negotiate with the union.

Actually that's not quite true. Under Wisonsin law the state (as the employer) is required to negotiate with valid union representation.

111.84 Unfair labor practices. (1) It is an unfair labor practice
for an employer individually or in concert with others:

<<SNIP>>

(d) To refuse to bargain collectively on matters set forth in s.
111.91 (1) with a representative of a majority of its employees in
an appropriate collective bargaining unit.​

STATE EMPLOYMENT LABOR RELATIONS



>>>>

That would apply to contract disputes but would have no bearing on the legislative process. The state is not required to consult the union in regards to pending legislation. The union remedy to legislation they don't like would lie with the judicial system.

The previous two quotes were not regarding passage of legislation, they were referencing negotiations, and yes under current Wisconsin law it is a legal unfair labor practice to refuse to negotiate with the property recognized union representatives.


Of course the state can change the law and remove that obligation, but until that happens the legal obligation does exist.



>>>>

 

[Hum Dinger]

In the end, it really doesn't matter what the state does or does not legislate. As long as the union poeple stick together they'll win.

All they have to do is withhold services - and there's nothing that the govenment can do.

Not passing legislation to undermine the unions, and continuing to negotiate will prevent an awful lot of suffering for the people of Wisconson - that's the only difference.

When push comes to shove the unions will win. We've been down this road many a time before.

 

[The T]

All that the unions need to is get the sanitation union to go on strike and it's all over for Walker.

That's the nuke of the union negotiations.

Really? Is this your fianal answer? All it will do is bolster the disgust for Unions in the populace.

But if you feel secure? You just go with this.

Hey, I lived in New York back in the 60s & 70s, and it sure was disgusting when the sanitation workers went on strike - it pissed everyone off. Same with the teachers strike and just about every other strike.

But the unions won and that's all there was to it.

Welcome to capitalism! If you don't like economic contension move to China!

The simple truth is that collective bargaining forces management, or the general populace, to realize the true value of the workers. They may not like it, but who gives a shit.

It's better to have people resent you than it is to live in poverty.

Unions are not Capitalism. Unions are thuggery.

 

[Hum Dinger]

Hey, here's an idea:

What if State governments continued to negotiate with unions, as they've been doing for the past 60 years, and instead of screwing the working people of this country, they raised taxes on the wealthiest people in order to balance their budgets.

The only problem with that is that the wealthy own the Republican politicians so they'll keep twsiting their arms into doing anything but raise taxes.

But ultimately, they're going to fond out that it just isn't going to work.

They can force confrontations with the unions and lose, or they can let the goverments go into bankrutpcy - but then they'll be a total economic collapse and the wealthy will no longer be wealthy.

World Socialism rears it's ugly head!

 

[WorldWatcher]

In the end, it really doesn't matter what the state does or does not legislate. As long as the union poeple stick together they'll win.

All they have to do is withhold services - and there's nothing that the govenment can do.

Not passing legislation to undermine the unions, and continuing to negotiate will prevent an awful lot of suffering for the people of Wisconson - that's the only difference.

When push comes to shove the unions will win. We've been down this road many a time before.

Actually that's not true. If employees are found to be on strike or to not be providing the services they were hired for then they can be fired, suspended, or fined.

111.89 Strike prohibited.
(1) Upon establishing that a
strike is in progress, the employer may either seek an injunction
or file an unfair labor practice charge with the commission under
s. 111.84 (2) (e) or both. It is the responsibility of the office to
decide whether to seek an injunction or file an unfair labor practice
charge. The existence of an administrative remedy does not
constitute grounds for denial of injunctive relief.
(2) The occurrence of a strike and the participation therein by
an employee do not affect the rights of the employer, in law or in
equity, to deal with the strike, including:
(a) The right to impose discipline, including discharge, or suspension
without pay, of any employee participating therein;
(b) The right to cancel the reinstatement eligibility of any
employee engaging therein; and
(c) The right of the employer to request the imposition of fines,
either against the labor organization or the employee engaging
therein, or to sue for damages because of such strike activity.​

STATE EMPLOYMENT LABOR RELATIONS


>>>>

 

[Vel]

Actually that's not quite true. Under Wisonsin law the state (as the employer) is required to negotiate with valid union representation.

111.84 Unfair labor practices. (1) It is an unfair labor practice
for an employer individually or in concert with others:

<<SNIP>>

(d) To refuse to bargain collectively on matters set forth in s.
111.91 (1) with a representative of a majority of its employees in
an appropriate collective bargaining unit.​

STATE EMPLOYMENT LABOR RELATIONS



>>>>

That would apply to contract disputes but would have no bearing on the legislative process. The state is not required to consult the union in regards to pending legislation. The union remedy to legislation they don't like would lie with the judicial system.

The previous two quotes were not regarding passage of legislation, they were referencing negotiations, and yes under current Wisconsin law it is a legal unfair labor practice to refuse to negotiate with the property recognized union representatives.


Of course the state can change the law and remove that obligation, but until that happens the legal obligation does exist.



>>>>

True, but the context of this debate is "Why won't the Governor negotiate with the unions in order to end the protests." The simple answer is that he is not, in this particular situation, required to as the protests are about pending legislation.

 

[Hum Dinger]

Really? Is this your fianal answer? All it will do is bolster the disgust for Unions in the populace.

But if you feel secure? You just go with this.

Hey, I lived in New York back in the 60s & 70s, and it sure was disgusting when the sanitation workers went on strike - it pissed everyone off. Same with the teachers strike and just about every other strike.

But the unions won and that's all there was to it.

Welcome to capitalism! If you don't like economic contension move to China!

The simple truth is that collective bargaining forces management, or the general populace, to realize the true value of the workers. They may not like it, but who gives a shit.

It's better to have people resent you than it is to live in poverty.

Unions are not Capitalism. Unions are thuggery.

BULLSHIT! Unions negotiate the true value of the constituents. They may prevent the exploitation of the economically disadvantaged by the economically advantaged, but that's a whole lot better than a return to servitude.

Doing business is a priviledge, not a right. If you cannot maintain reasonable employment standards then you cannot do business.