Classified Papers Prove German Warnings to Bush

[L.K.Eder]

not that that is a surprise:

Berlin Efforts to Prevent Iraq Invasion: Classified Papers Prove German Warnings to Bush - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Gerhard Schröder and Joschka Fischer made every effort they could. The German chancellor and foreign minister spared no effort with their appeals, whether in public or private, in small groups or with the eyes of the entire world upon them. In the end, though, it was all for naught. Then-United States President George W. Bush wouldn't allow anyone to change his mind. He was dead set on launching a war against Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein and thereby bringing "freedom," as he put it, to the Middle East. It was a freedom that Bush described as " God's gift to mankind."

..

SPIEGEL has now obtained a previously secret copy of notes taken from a conversation in February 2003 marked "Classified Information -- For Internal Use Only." At that time, in was just a matter of weeks before US soldiers invaded Iraq. Klaus Scharioth, a Berlin-based state secretary in the German Foreign Ministry, had flown to Washington in the hope of still having a chance of changing the minds of Condoleezza Rice, Bush's national security adviser at the time, and other high-ranking members on the National Security Council.
Costs of War 'Higher than Political Returns'
According to the notes -- all in German -- the meeting amounted to 90 minutes of verbal blows, which primarily stemmed from Rice's "relatively rigorous and uncompromising" defense of the US position. The same notes indicate that Scharioth didn't budge an inch toward Washington, either. In retrospect, though, they document a high point in German diplomatic history, because the objections and predictions put forward by Berlin on that Tuesday have turned out to be legitimate and correct.
The crux of the German argument was that the political costs of a war in Iraq would be "higher than (the) political returns." While Rice predicted that Iraq would take advantage of the "opportunities for reconstruction" like the ones Germany enjoyed after 1945, the delegation from Berlin countered that the rapid establishment of a democracy in Baghdad was "not (to be) expected."
The Germans also predicted that the real beneficiary of a war in Iraq would actually be Iran, and that a US-led attack would further complicate efforts to reach a solution in the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians.
Likewise, they prophesized that going to war would precipitate a "terrorist backlash." Scharioth stressed that it was important "to win over the hearts and minds of the Muslim elite and youths," according to the notes, and that this was "not to be achieved" by going to war. He also added that doing so would greatly increase the danger of prompting an "influx to Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism."

This remarkable conversation was held just a few days after the now-infamous speech that then-US Secretary of State Colin Powell delivered in New York before the UN Security Council.

..

 

[ekrem]

All we need to know about USA we learned in 2002-2003.

 

[L.K.Eder]

All we need to know about USA we learned in 2002-2003.

no, but it was certainly a very revealing period of time.

the way they deal with the consequences of those actions and with those responsible for those actions is very revealing, too.

 

[The Rabbi]

You're relying on the words of a 60s radical and a country that was secretly violating sanctions and playing footsie with Saddam in Food for Oil?? Really????
The Germans have no credibility on this issue. None. They are the biggest pussies in Europe, afraid of everything, most of all themselves.

 

[ekrem]

(...)

 

[ekrem]

(...)
The Germans have no credibility on this issue. None. They are the biggest pussies(...)

Today, Germany and the role Germany is playing in the world is the most liked.
Germany - Germany the world?s most popular country according to a BBC poll, 20 April 2010

Joschka Fischer and Gerhard Schröder have contributed to that image.

 

[L.K.Eder]

You're relying on the words of a 60s radical and a country that was secretly violating sanctions and playing footsie with Saddam in Food for Oil?? Really????
The Germans have no credibility on this issue. None. They are the biggest pussies in Europe, afraid of everything, most of all themselves.

the germans have a big amount of credibility on this issue, while the bush administration has actually none.

your predictable shit is weak. and predictable. and shit.

of course it drew several flies.

 

[The Rabbi]

You're relying on the words of a 60s radical and a country that was secretly violating sanctions and playing footsie with Saddam in Food for Oil?? Really????
The Germans have no credibility on this issue. None. They are the biggest pussies in Europe, afraid of everything, most of all themselves.

the germans have a big amount of credibility on this issue, while the bush administration has actually none.

your predictable shit is weak. and predictable. and shit.

of course it drew several flies.

Your English sucks.
And your debate skills laughable.

Jerry Schraeder promised not to use Iraq as a campaign issue and when his campaign looked weak he went ahead and did just that. Germany sold poison gas to Saddam, used against the Kurds. They sold all kinds of stuff and violated sanctions. Jerry is currently working for the Russians on a project he lobbied Germany on when chancellor. He isn't known as "der Kashmirkankeler" for nothing.

 

[L.K.Eder]

You're relying on the words of a 60s radical and a country that was secretly violating sanctions and playing footsie with Saddam in Food for Oil?? Really????
The Germans have no credibility on this issue. None. They are the biggest pussies in Europe, afraid of everything, most of all themselves.

the germans have a big amount of credibility on this issue, while the bush administration has actually none.

your predictable shit is weak. and predictable. and shit.

of course it drew several flies.

Your English sucks.
And your debate skills laughable.

Jerry Schraeder promised not to use Iraq as a campaign issue and when his campaign looked weak he went ahead and did just that. Germany sold poison gas to Saddam, used against the Kurds. They sold all kinds of stuff and violated sanctions. Jerry is currently working for the Russians on a project he lobbied Germany on when chancellor. He isn't known as "der Kashmirkankeler" for nothing.

lol, kashmirkankeler, schraeder, debate skills?

dude, back to the drawing board.

and if you want a discussion, don't shit all over the thread.

you can start with sourcing all your loud opinions.

then proceed with explaining the relevance of your "presentation" to the warnings told by scharioth to rice.

or just continue defecating from all orifices, your choice.

 

[The Rabbi]

Gornisht. You've got gornisht. The facts speak for themselves.
Asia Times

 

[L.K.Eder]

Gornisht. You've got gornisht. The facts speak for themselves.
Asia Times

thanks for that polemic from 2003.

just an attempt to kill the messenger.

you are still on it years later.


close your eyes and ears, preach about sweet heart deals, food for oil scams and whatever. and that joschka was a radical and that schröder now works for the RUSSIANS, hahahaha.

willful ignorance paired with a mean streak.


it will never excuse the invasion of another sovereign country fuelled by lying lying and more lying.

the facts stand for themselves and outside of your right-wing nutjob bush-apologist circle jerk this is readily acknowledged.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Who cares what the ex "leader" of a muslim country has to say about anything?

 

[The Rabbi]

Gornisht. You've got gornisht. The facts speak for themselves.
Asia Times

thanks for that polemic from 2003.

just an attempt to kill the messenger.

you are still on it years later.


close your eyes and ears, preach about sweet heart deals, food for oil scams and whatever. and that joschka was a radical and that schröder now works for the RUSSIANS, hahahaha.

willful ignorance paired with a mean streak.


it will never excuse the invasion of another sovereign country fuelled by lying lying and more lying.

the facts stand for themselves and outside of your right-wing nutjob bush-apologist circle jerk this is readily acknowledged.

So 2003 was like another universe or something? Facts are facts. I cited them. I cited them correctly. Your responses are pitiful and your attempts at deflection pathetic.
Germany is filled with cowards and backstabbers who denounce the U.S. after relying on its military for security for the last 60 years.

 

[L.K.Eder]

rabbi, it is useless trying to reason with guys like you.

the bush administration was set from the beginning to find a way to invade iraq and find a justification for it.

they seized the opportunity 9/11 presented.

but the facts were not on their side, and on top of that, they lacked diplomatic skills, being basically narrow-minded arrogant pricks like you.

that's why they had to lie and hoodwink other governments and their US american opposition into supporting their drum-up to war, as a last resort, they told.

it was their FIRST resort.

that became clearer and clearer between 2002 and 2003.

that's why france, russia and germany told them publically NO, not with us.

not under these pretenses.

when powell's bizarre clownery before the UN failed, they went ahead anyway, because that's what they wanted.

no warnings, no doubts, no intelligence would ever have changed that.

they wanted in.

and they did.

and it happened like it was predicted by many sides.

and now you sit on a deficit and blame it on obama and the democrats who voted for the authorization of power.

iraq is destroyed, many life's lost, and america-haters are having one field-day after another. lol

dunce.

 

[The Rabbi]

rabbi, it is useless trying to reason with guys like you.

the bush administration was set from the beginning to find a way to invade iraq and find a justification for it.

they seized the opportunity 9/11 presented.

but the facts were not on their side, and on top of that, they lacked diplomatic skills, being basically narrow-minded arrogant pricks like you.

that's why they had to lie and hoodwink other governments and their US american opposition into supporting their drum-up to war, as a last resort, they told.

it was their FIRST resort.

that became clearer and clearer between 2002 and 2003.

that's why france, russia and germany told them publically NO, not with us.

not under these pretenses.

when powell's bizarre clownery before the UN failed, they went ahead anyway, because that's what they wanted.

no warnings, no doubts, no intelligence would ever have changed that.

they wanted in.

and they did.

and it happened like it was predicted by many sides.

and now you sit on a deficit and blame it on obama and the democrats who voted for the authorization of power.

iraq is destroyed, many life's lost, and america-haters are having one field-day after another. lol

dunce.

Unfortunately this thread is not about America's invasion of Iraq, which has been discussed ad nauseam. It is about the supposed warning by two wascally Germans. The Germans have no moral standing at all on this, having been proven self-dealing, lying and treacherous.
You haven't refuted anything I wrote, merely repeated left wing and Euro-wienie talking points on America and Iraq.

 

[L.K.Eder]

rabbi, it is useless trying to reason with guys like you.

the bush administration was set from the beginning to find a way to invade iraq and find a justification for it.

they seized the opportunity 9/11 presented.

but the facts were not on their side, and on top of that, they lacked diplomatic skills, being basically narrow-minded arrogant pricks like you.

that's why they had to lie and hoodwink other governments and their US american opposition into supporting their drum-up to war, as a last resort, they told.

it was their FIRST resort.

that became clearer and clearer between 2002 and 2003.

that's why france, russia and germany told them publically NO, not with us.

not under these pretenses.

when powell's bizarre clownery before the UN failed, they went ahead anyway, because that's what they wanted.

no warnings, no doubts, no intelligence would ever have changed that.

they wanted in.

and they did.

and it happened like it was predicted by many sides.

and now you sit on a deficit and blame it on obama and the democrats who voted for the authorization of power.

iraq is destroyed, many life's lost, and america-haters are having one field-day after another. lol

dunce.

Unfortunately this thread is not about America's invasion of Iraq, which has been discussed ad nauseam. It is about the supposed warning by two wascally Germans. The Germans have no moral standing at all on this, having been proven self-dealing, lying and treacherous.
You haven't refuted anything I wrote, merely repeated left wing and Euro-wienie talking points on America and Iraq.

i know perfectly well what this thread is about.

you should read it if you have the time.

 

[goldcatt]

GHW Bush knew the drawbacks of invading Iraq, which is why he didn't take Baghdad in Gulf War I. It hurt him politically among the hawks, but he was right. The Germans were right in 2003. The overall situation hadn't changed, there was no reason to take Iraq and all the same reasons not to. But GWB did it anyway.

I always wondered why, and how much it had to do with his Father's decision the first time around and the political heat he got from a certain segment of his own party.

 

[L.K.Eder]

GHW Bush knew the drawbacks of invading Iraq, which is why he didn't take Baghdad in Gulf War I. It hurt him politically among the hawks, but he was right. The Germans were right in 2003. The overall situation hadn't changed, there was no reason to take Iraq and all the same reasons not to. But GWB did it anyway.

I always wondered why, and how much it had to do with his Father's decision the first time around and the political heat he got from a certain segment of his own party.

"I'm a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign-policy matters with war on my mind."

sums his mindset up perfectly, i think.

 

[ekrem]

(...)
the bush administration was set from the beginning to find a way to invade iraq and find a justification for it.
(...)

Americans might have a short memory.
Invading Iraq, fabricating a justification for the invasion, that's what it was all about. And, that's how it is and will be remembered in the world.

 

[L.K.Eder]

(...)
the bush administration was set from the beginning to find a way to invade iraq and find a justification for it.
(...)

Americans might have a short memory.
Invading Iraq, fabricating a justification for the invasion, that's what it was all about. And, that's how it is and will be remembered in the world.

the short memory subset of americans are most probably the same subset of americans who supported this invasion from beginning to end.

some more got sucked in but they woke up long ago