CDZ Can policies be agreed on by prochoice and prolife to reduce and prevent abortion

[cnm]

2. Continue funding birth control with Federal money, state money and better yet private donations. Anything to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies thus eliminating the abortion decision.

Doesn't private money fund abstinence only birth control already?

 

[cnm]

I am kind of curious as to why any elective abortion proponents would care about the numbers of abortions one way or the other.

An extra unnecessary risk for women if a more efficient birth control programme is not in place, Shirley?

 

[Chuz Life]

They are distinguasable from other animals at the moment of conception. DNA analysis can make this distinction quite easily...

I like to think that humans are more than a collection of chemicals.

No ones infringing on your prerogative to think so. Whatever else they may be... They are also a very specific collection of chemicals...

A corpse or a human in a coma with no brain activity is also a very specific collection of chemicals. Unfortunately no longer a person.

What about children born with only a brain stem? No thoughts, no feelings, can't breathe on their own and will NEVER be "viable" without extreme medical assistance.

Are they children? Persons?

No. Tragic situation but no different from an adult human in a coma with no brain activity.

According to the courts, they ARE.

Are you claiming the courts have it wrong? No problem if you do. I claim the courts got it wrong in Roe, myself.

Point is, the courts are not infallible. . . However, their decisions do carry some weight unless and until their decision is overturned.

Good luck getting personhood stripped away from children born with severe brain issues. That's so "progressive" of you. (Sarcasm)

 

[Chuz Life]

I am kind of curious as to why any elective abortion proponents would care about the numbers of abortions one way or the other.

An extra unnecessary risk for women if a more efficient birth control programme is not in place, Shirley?

What? We are told everyday that legal abortions are clean and safe? Aren't we?

 

[emilynghiem]

Federal funding of birth control is merely a point of attack for pro lifers. They still would run abstinence only programmes where they had the power to do so, which means in certain states. Of course that is why Federal funding is attacked, it prevents states' idiological idiocies.

Could those idiolists be persuaded to abandon abstinence only? I don't believe so, which means policies can not be agreed.

Hi cnm, there's nothing wrong with running "abstinence only" in their own programs, which is the point. Let people and community members who don't agree on sex education policy (also creation/evolution or global warming vs. corporate pollution) fund and run their OWN programs.

Sure there will be "abstinence only" as there will still be advocates who are "absolutist" when it comes to executions or abortion or gun rights or any political belief. The point is to start by SEPARATING the funding so people can exercise their own beliefs on their own dime and their own time.

If you wouldn't want prolife people "dictating" what Planned Parenthood counsels, then we shouldn't dictate if they want to fund programs teaching abstinence only. That's the trade off. And they DO want to Defund PP, so yes we can ask for this funding separation where it benefits all sides equally.

NOTE: I found some prolife advocates who
(1) ABSOLUTELY demanded full access to reliable effective birth control, as a doctor, because she went with the science and the reality of the situation, and she is a Christian Prolife doctor who wanted to promote that.

The irony was NOT lost on me, that as a prochoice advocate I do believe that "not having sex" is the surest way to avoid unwanted pregnancy and abortion, andthis needs to be taught as the goal if we are ever going to get to 100% prevention. I'm not against birth control, but opposed to forcing the funding of this on people who don't believe in that approach or who want other conditions and terms attached if they are going to fund it. If they don't the terms they require, they should be able to fund something that does meet their standards. If we all did this, we'd fund all the approaches out there and quit fighting, just use ALL the approaches but give people the choice of which they want to support with their money and endorsement.

(2) I have friends who opposed abortion even if other people fund it separately, and they ideally want it illegal. I explained that the prolife advocates who are most effective in preventing ALL the problems or steps that lead up to abortion, the people who ARE already promoting the education and prevention necessary to wipe it out 100% are all doing this under a "prochoice" environment. They are not FORCED to by law "because abortion is illegal" the prolife movement is most effective, and it is run entirely by free choice, by educated consent. So this proves it can be done without making it illegal if EVERYONE supported the work of the Prolife movement. I credit them with why we can have free choice, so that we exercise it responsibly with fully informed consent, so it isn't abused.

Unfortunately "free choice" is abused, and people are not counseled to avoid abusive relationships that result in unwanted pregnancy, unwanted children or abortion. So that's why prolife advocates don't want groups "promoting abortion as a choice" because it allows a way out where the CAUSES of the problems never get addressed, instead of preventing them to begin with! they WANT people to take responsibility and not having or forcing sex TO BEGIN WITH.

And what I ADD to that: then focus on the MEN having or forcing sex, not just targeting the women who carry the pregnancy and the children.

The same education, counseling, deep longterm therapy and mentorship that can stop "relationship abuse" and "sexual abuse" also reduces or prevents: domestic violence, sexual addictions, rape, and other serious problems IN ADDITION TO reducing and preventing ABORTION.

So the serious therapy and education on the process it takes
to solve the CAUSES of these multitude of problems and abuses
makes it worthwhile to invest and promote "that angle".

It's not just abstinence but counseling and mentoring people
to take that level of responsibility for their own health and the
health of their relationships with other people, to respect
CONSENT at all time, especially in conflict, to prevent
bullying by abuse, either verbal or psychological coercion or
physical violence.

So again, it was ironic that as a prochoice person who believes in consent of the governed, I support abstinence education as a key area for teaching the importance of consent; while another prolife advocate I met was pushing for more effective birth control as the most logical approach!

So this tells me we can respect all approaches, if even a prochoice "abstinence" advocate can agree with a prolife "birth control" advocate.

We need every angle and approach out there to help reduce and prevent these problems. If people don't agree which to fund, let them fund their own, and SUPPORT them in being the most effective they can with their program of choice.

We want people to succeed in defending and promoting fully informed choices, in order to ensure free choice is enforced and exercised properly as intended, and NEVER abused to coerce anyone, abuse relations or violate consent.

 

[cnm]

What? We are told everyday that legal abortions are clean and safe? Aren't we?

Are we? Who has told you that lately? Do you believe everything you're told? Really?

 

[cnm]

Hi cnm, there's nothing wrong with running "abstinence only" in their own programs, which is the point.

Yes there is. It doesn't work and leads to an increased requirement for abortions.

 

[alang1216]

Good luck getting personhood stripped away from children born with severe brain issues. That's so "progressive" of you. (Sarcasm)

Not something I'd ever think of doing, that is a decision that should be left to those closest to the child, the parents. I'd prefer to keep the government out of it. You apparently want to put the gov't between a parent and a child. That's so "progressive" of you.

 

[Chuz Life]

Good luck getting personhood stripped away from children born with severe brain issues. That's so "progressive" of you. (Sarcasm)

Not something I'd ever think of doing, that is a decision that should be left to those closest to the child, the parents. I'd prefer to keep the government out of it. You apparently want to put the gov't between a parent and a child. That's so "progressive" of you.

When lawsuits are filed as many already have been on both sides.... how the he'll are you going to keep government out of it?

 

[alang1216]

When lawsuits are filed as many already have been on both sides.... how the he'll are you going to keep government out of it?

You could admit that Roe v. Wade is the law of the land and is supported by a majority of Americans. You could stop trying to chip away at it through legislation and put your efforts into education and assistance. Yeah, I'm sure that will happen.

 

[Chuz Life]

When lawsuits are filed as many already have been on both sides.... how the he'll are you going to keep government out of it?

You could admit that Roe v. Wade is the law of the land and is supported by a majority of Americans. You could stop trying to chip away at it through legislation and put your efforts into education and assistance. Yeah, I'm sure that will happen.

I could do ALL of that and there still would be a legal contradiction between Roe v Wade and our fetal HOMICIDE laws. . . Whether you or even any judges want to acknowledge the contradiction or not.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Birth control is the only way.

People aint going to stop fucking.

 

[MarathonMike]

I believe the best you can do is minimize the carnage. Abstinence has not been proven to work. Education has not been proven to work. Teen pregnancy and Teen motherhood has been proven to be a tremendous burden on the mother, the child and society. And abortion is baby murder.

99% of the time I am against government intervention, but this is a life-death issue. If wider access to birth control leads to less teen pregnancies and therefore less abortions then IMO that is reasonable use of tax dollars.

 

[alang1216]

When lawsuits are filed as many already have been on both sides.... how the he'll are you going to keep government out of it?

You could admit that Roe v. Wade is the law of the land and is supported by a majority of Americans. You could stop trying to chip away at it through legislation and put your efforts into education and assistance. Yeah, I'm sure that will happen.

I could do ALL of that and there still would be a legal contradiction between Roe v Wade and our fetal HOMICIDE laws. . . Whether you or even any judges want to acknowledge the contradiction or not.

I see no contradiction. Roe protects the mother from the gov't. Fetal laws protect her from the actions of others.

 

[cnm]

Education has not been proven to work.

What, you mean education without access to birth control? Of course that's not going to work. It's called abstinence only. Otherwise, education and access to birth control has proven to be the best solution as far as I know. Unless you have data showing a better solution?

 

[Chuz Life]

When lawsuits are filed as many already have been on both sides.... how the he'll are you going to keep government out of it?

You could admit that Roe v. Wade is the law of the land and is supported by a majority of Americans. You could stop trying to chip away at it through legislation and put your efforts into education and assistance. Yeah, I'm sure that will happen.

I could do ALL of that and there still would be a legal contradiction between Roe v Wade and our fetal HOMICIDE laws. . . Whether you or even any judges want to acknowledge the contradiction or not.

I see no contradiction. Roe protects the mother from the gov't. Fetal laws protect her from the actions of others.

It's ok that YOU don't see the contradiction. Lawyers on both sides and more than enough lawmakers do.

 

[MarathonMike]

Education has not been proven to work.

What, you mean education without access to birth control? Of course that's not going to work. It's called abstinence only. Otherwise, education and access to birth control has proven to be the best solution as far as I know. Unless you have data showing a better solution?

Teenagers know more about sex than most adults. They know how birth control pills and condoms work. That is why I don't place much importance on education. IMO the best use of tax dollars is making birth control available to all who want it. That will have the greatest impact on reducing the number of abortions.

 

[cnm]

Forgive me if I find those assertions unconvincing.

 

[sartre play]

The answer seems to be No.