Boycott Israel

[American_Jihad]

Time to Draw Lines and Defend Them
The BDS movement cannot be tolerated in any form.
March 1, 2016
Caroline Glick

Originally published by the Jerusalem Post.

At a certain point, you just have to know when draw a line in the sand.

Sloan and Guy Rachmuth, Jewish parents in Durham, North Carolina, reached that point in 2014 when they opted to walk away from their local Jewish day school and home school their two children.

The Rachmuths pulled their children out of the Lerner School when they concluded the school would not abide by its commitment to assist “all students in developing a positive Jewish identity and pride in their Jewish heritage.”

...

Time to Draw Lines and Defend Them

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This whole line of discussion on the defined territory is flawed on two counts.

What does Hamas have to do with the fact that Israel has never had any defined territory?

(COMMENT)

• It suggests that the Armistice Lined are not demarcations protected in the same way as borders (a line like a border but not a negotiated border).

Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations --- EXCERPT: Solemnly proclaims the following principles:

The principle that States shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations

Every State likewise has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate international lines of demarcation, such as armistice lines, established by or pursuant to an international agreement to which it is a party or which it is otherwise bound to respect. Nothing in the foregoing shall be construed as prejudicing the positions of the parties concerned with regard to the status and effects of such lines under their special regimes or as affecting their temporary character.​

• It suggest that a country that has an Armistice Line as a demarcation is not a true country.

Franco-German Armistice : June 1940
Armistice Agreement with Italy; September 1943
Armistice Agreement with Bulgaria; October 28, 1944
Armistice Agreement with Rumania; September 12, 1944
Armistice Agreement with Hungary; January 20, 1945
Armistice Agreement with Israel; 1949
Armistice Agreements with Korea; July 1953
​

With minor variations, Bulgaria, France, German, Hungary, Korea, and Rumania all exist today; with no major disputes concerning borders.

An Armistice Line does not (repeat) does not affect the integrity of a Nation. The concept of defined territory is that territory which can be defined as under its sovereign control. It has nothing at all to do with the political status or the origin of any given line. Korea has an active Armistice Line, it does not mean that Korea did not have a territory that is defined by South Korean sovereignty. Until the regime of North Korea is dissolved (not in my lifetime) the two Koreas will defined by the Armistice Line.

(THE QUESTION OF PALESTINE)

How does the State of Palestine define its territory?

• If it says all the territory to which the former Mandate applied; then it is a false claim. The State of Palestine cannot claim that which has never been under their sovereign control and which is not now under their sovereign control.

• If it claims the territory known as the occupied Palestinian territory (oPt), then they have a false claim again. While the Islamic Resistance Movement may have control over the Gaza Strip, it does not have control over the West Bank. While the Palestinian Authority can claim control over Area "A" and limited control over Area "B" --- it cannot claim control over Area "C" or the Gaza Strip.

• If the Palestinians claim that the Gaza Strip and West Bank are oPt; then that means that they never established control over any of the territory and thus, Israel has "effective control" over the oPt, and boundary of Israel. Thus the State of Palestine has not territory over which it can define its territory.

Most Respectfully,
R

WOW. contradictions, assumptions, and irrelevance.

Could you clean this up so I can respond?

You must be a moron as there is no assumptions, contradictions or irrelevance in the reply. It is you that is unable to take in the reality and use it properly

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This whole line of discussion on the defined territory is flawed on two counts.

What does Hamas have to do with the fact that Israel has never had any defined territory?

(COMMENT)

• It suggests that the Armistice Lined are not demarcations protected in the same way as borders (a line like a border but not a negotiated border).

Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations --- EXCERPT: Solemnly proclaims the following principles:

The principle that States shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations

Every State likewise has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate international lines of demarcation, such as armistice lines, established by or pursuant to an international agreement to which it is a party or which it is otherwise bound to respect. Nothing in the foregoing shall be construed as prejudicing the positions of the parties concerned with regard to the status and effects of such lines under their special regimes or as affecting their temporary character.​

• It suggest that a country that has an Armistice Line as a demarcation is not a true country.

Franco-German Armistice : June 1940
Armistice Agreement with Italy; September 1943
Armistice Agreement with Bulgaria; October 28, 1944
Armistice Agreement with Rumania; September 12, 1944
Armistice Agreement with Hungary; January 20, 1945
Armistice Agreement with Israel; 1949
Armistice Agreements with Korea; July 1953
​

With minor variations, Bulgaria, France, German, Hungary, Korea, and Rumania all exist today; with no major disputes concerning borders.

An Armistice Line does not (repeat) does not affect the integrity of a Nation. The concept of defined territory is that territory which can be defined as under its sovereign control. It has nothing at all to do with the political status or the origin of any given line. Korea has an active Armistice Line, it does not mean that Korea did not have a territory that is defined by South Korean sovereignty. Until the regime of North Korea is dissolved (not in my lifetime) the two Koreas will defined by the Armistice Line.

(THE QUESTION OF PALESTINE)

How does the State of Palestine define its territory?

• If it says all the territory to which the former Mandate applied; then it is a false claim. The State of Palestine cannot claim that which has never been under their sovereign control and which is not now under their sovereign control.

• If it claims the territory known as the occupied Palestinian territory (oPt), then they have a false claim again. While the Islamic Resistance Movement may have control over the Gaza Strip, it does not have control over the West Bank. While the Palestinian Authority can claim control over Area "A" and limited control over Area "B" --- it cannot claim control over Area "C" or the Gaza Strip.

• If the Palestinians claim that the Gaza Strip and West Bank are oPt; then that means that they never established control over any of the territory and thus, Israel has "effective control" over the oPt, and boundary of Israel. Thus the State of Palestine has not territory over which it can define its territory.

Most Respectfully,
R

An Armistice Line does not (repeat) does not affect the integrity of a Nation.​

Indeed. Read those armistice agreements again.

Did anyone but you say it did, try putting your brain into gear before posting next time.

Did the Palestinians sign those armistice agreements, if not then they and you have no say in the matter. And the Palestinians have no effective control over the west bank as it was occupied before the nation of Palestine came into being

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Of course, I've answer that just as often.

Of course that still leaves the question as to when Israel acquired the territory that it is claiming a border.

(COMMENT)
There are multiple phases to this.

• The Jewish Agency and Provisional Government cooperated with the UNSCOP and the UNPC.
• The UNSCOP submitted recommendation to the General Assembly.
• The General Assembly adopted a recommendation and establish the Step Preparatory to Independence (SPTI).
• The Jewish Agency and Provisional Government cooperated with the UNPC and complete the essential SPTI.
• In coordination with the Successor Government, on the UK withdraw from the territory under Mandate, The Provisional Government declared Independence IAW the Recommendation.
• The Arab League forces attacked from all the adjacent Arab States. Israeli forces first repulse and pursue Arab Forces, assuming more territory as the Arab Forces withdraw and escape.
• The UN Helps negotiate Armistice Agreements.

This is the end of the first phase.

Most Respectfully,
R

There are a few things missing from your list.

• Who gave land to Israel?
• Whose land was given to Israel?
• Specifically what land was given? (borders/map)

LoN who where the sovereign owners from 1917

LoN land which was reparations for war

The land delineated by the LoN mandate of Palestine ( not to be confused with the British mandate )

 

[Phoenall]

No we have given you the answer you did not want to see, so you ignore it hoping it will go away.


So how does the state of Palestine define its borders, what does it use as the deciding factor ?
OTHER THAN FROM NORTH TO SOUTH FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, yes, the intent was not let the Armistice lines form the permanent boundary. I agree. But it does not change the fact that Armistice Lines are protected under the Declaration of Principles. It does not undermine the sovereignty if Israel or the integrity of the Nation.

• An Armistice Line does not (repeat) does not affect the integrity of a Nation.

Indeed. Read those armistice agreements again.

(COMMENT)

Relative to our focus (West Bank), the 1949 Armistice Line is defined and totally encapsulate the West Bank; clearly identifying them as Demarcations (alla the Declaration of Principles) until replaced the Treaty which essentially dissolved the Armistice Line with Jordan and replaced it with a permanent international boundary.

Article VI(9): Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949

The Armistice Demarcation Lines defined in articles V and VI of this Agreement are agreed upon by the Parties without prejudice to future territorial settlements or boundary lines or to claims of either Party relating thereto.
​

Article 3(2): Jordan-Israel Peace Treaty was signed on October 26, 1994

The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognized international boundary between Jordan and Israel, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967.
​

Yes, I agree there was a difference in the Israeli-Egyptian Armistice Agreement, but still does not change the fact that the delineation is protected. And for all practical purposed, it has NO impact on the matter of integrity. The War was fought, and the territorial boundaries were established. And the boundaries were established between the parties to the Conflict: Israel 'vs' Egypt and Jordan. The Arab Palestinians did not have a recognized government, or any territorial control.

Article V(5), Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question.

The basic purpose of the Armistice Demarcation Line is to delineate the line beyond which the armed forces of the respective Parties shall not move except as provided in Article III of this Agreement.
​

Article II, Treaty Between Israel and Egypt : 1974

Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.
​

And again, the Armistice Line dissolves and is replaced by the permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel in the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine. Which entirely encapsulates the Gaza Strip.

You can claim what you will, but Armistice Lines are protected by the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

(THE QUESTIONs OF PALESTINE)

Claim is just merely subterfuge for the Arab Palestinian clinging to some right of insurgency, or some justification for continued hostilities. But, it does not address or answer the basic question of the present:

• How does the State of Palestine define its territory?
• How can it claim territory for which it never controlled and maintained sovereignty over?

It would be very interesting to determine what you think are the boundaries of the State of Palestine versus the State of Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R

Yes, yes, the intent was not let the Armistice lines form the permanent boundary. I agree. But it does not change the fact that Armistice Lines are protected under the Declaration of Principles. It does not undermine the sovereignty if Israel or the integrity of the Nation.​

Actually they were specifically not to be any kind of boundary at all.

That said, they did not disrupt Palestine's international boundaries at all.

UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THEY WERE ACEPTED AS AGREED BORDERS

What International borders are those, and don't quote the LoN mandate for Palestine borders as they do not delineate the nation of Palestine. Made very clear in the actual treaty setting them out

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, yes, the intent was not let the Armistice lines form the permanent boundary. I agree. But it does not change the fact that Armistice Lines are protected under the Declaration of Principles. It does not undermine the sovereignty if Israel or the integrity of the Nation.

• An Armistice Line does not (repeat) does not affect the integrity of a Nation.

Indeed. Read those armistice agreements again.

(COMMENT)

Relative to our focus (West Bank), the 1949 Armistice Line is defined and totally encapsulate the West Bank; clearly identifying them as Demarcations (alla the Declaration of Principles) until replaced the Treaty which essentially dissolved the Armistice Line with Jordan and replaced it with a permanent international boundary.

Article VI(9): Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949

The Armistice Demarcation Lines defined in articles V and VI of this Agreement are agreed upon by the Parties without prejudice to future territorial settlements or boundary lines or to claims of either Party relating thereto.
​

Article 3(2): Jordan-Israel Peace Treaty was signed on October 26, 1994

The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognized international boundary between Jordan and Israel, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967.
​

Yes, I agree there was a difference in the Israeli-Egyptian Armistice Agreement, but still does not change the fact that the delineation is protected. And for all practical purposed, it has NO impact on the matter of integrity. The War was fought, and the territorial boundaries were established. And the boundaries were established between the parties to the Conflict: Israel 'vs' Egypt and Jordan. The Arab Palestinians did not have a recognized government, or any territorial control.

Article V(5), Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question.

The basic purpose of the Armistice Demarcation Line is to delineate the line beyond which the armed forces of the respective Parties shall not move except as provided in Article III of this Agreement.
​

Article II, Treaty Between Israel and Egypt : 1974

Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.
​

And again, the Armistice Line dissolves and is replaced by the permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel in the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine. Which entirely encapsulates the Gaza Strip.

You can claim what you will, but Armistice Lines are protected by the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

(THE QUESTIONs OF PALESTINE)

Claim is just merely subterfuge for the Arab Palestinian clinging to some right of insurgency, or some justification for continued hostilities. But, it does not address or answer the basic question of the present:

• How does the State of Palestine define its territory?
• How can it claim territory for which it never controlled and maintained sovereignty over?

It would be very interesting to determine what you think are the boundaries of the State of Palestine versus the State of Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R

How can it claim territory for which it never controlled and maintained sovereignty over?​

You keep jumping back into Israeli propaganda territory no matter how many times I post this.

The exercise of sovereignty is not the issue. It is the right to sovereignty. The people in non self governing territories have the right to sovereignty.

When did this right become international law then, and what does it actually state. Don't forget that the Jews are also covered by all your posts so they MUST be allowed the same rights ?

 

[Phoenall]

It would be very interesting to determine what you think are the boundaries of the State of Palestine versus the State of Israel.

I'm pretty sure Tin's consistent argument is that there are no boundaries between Palestine and Israel. Its all Palestine. Israel has no right to exist. But he can correct me if I'm wrong.

Indeed, and that is the question that Rocco has been dancing around.

no he has not as you have failed to produce a single piece of evidence to show that there was a Palestinian state with defined agreed borders. All you have shown is that you either cant read English or that you will twist words to meet with your anti Jew POV. The borders of Israel are those set out in the mandate of Palestine when it delineates the borders of the proposed NATIONal home of the Jews.

See here

PALESTINE


INTRODUCTORY.


POSITION, ETC.​

Palestine lies on the western edge of the continent of Asia between Latitude 30º N. and 33º N., Longitude 34º 30’ E. and 35º 30’ E.

On the North it is bounded by the French Mandated Territories of Syria and Lebanon, on the East by Syria and Trans-Jordan, on the South-west by the Egyptian province of Sinai, on the South-east by the Gulf of Aqaba and on the West by the Mediterranean. The frontier with Syria was laid down by the Anglo-French Convention of the 23rd December, 1920, and its delimitation was ratified in 1923. Briefly stated, the boundaries are as follows: -

North. – From Ras en Naqura on the Mediterranean eastwards to a point west of Qadas, thence in a northerly direction to Metulla, thence east to a point west of Banias.

East. – From Banias in a southerly direction east of Lake Hula to Jisr Banat Ya’pub, thence along a line east of the Jordan and the Lake of Tiberias and on to El Hamme station on the Samakh-Deraa railway line, thence along the centre of the river Yarmuq to its confluence with the Jordan, thence along the centres of the Jordan, the Dead Sea and the Wadi Araba to a point on the Gulf of Aqaba two miles west of the town of Aqaba, thence along the shore of the Gulf of Aqaba to Ras Jaba.

South. – From Ras Jaba in a generally north-westerly direction to the junction of the Neki-Aqaba and Gaza-Aqaba Roads, thence to a point west-north-west of Ain Maghara and thence to a point on the Mediterranean coast north-west of Rafa.

West. – The Mediterranean Sea.



Then here



The Origin and Nature of the “Mandate for Palestine”

The “Mandate for Palestine,” an historical League of Nations document, laid down the Jewish legal right to settle anywhere in western Palestine, a 10,000-square-miles3 area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.

The legally binding document was conferred on April 24, 1920 at the San Remo Conference, and its terms outlined in the Treaty of Sèvres on August 10, 1920. The Mandate’s terms were finalized and unanimously approved on July 24, 1922, by the Council of the League of Nations, which was comprised at that time of 51 countries, and became operational on September 29, 1923.

The “Mandate for Palestine” was not a naive vision briefly embraced by the international community in blissful unawareness of Arab opposition to the very notion of Jewish historical rights in Palestine. The Mandate weathered the test of time: On April 18, 1946, when the League of Nations was dissolved and its assets and duties transferred to the United Nations, the international community, in essence, reaffirmed the validity of this international accord and reconfirmed that the terms for a Jewish National Home were the will of the international community, a “sacred trust” – despite the fact that by then it was patently clear that the Arabs opposed a Jewish National Home, no matter what the form.

Many seem to confuse the “Mandate for Palestine” [The Trust], with the British Mandate [The Trustee]. The “Mandate for Palestine” is a League of Nations document that laid down the Jewish legal rights in Palestine. The British Mandate, on the other hand, was entrusted by the League of Nations with the responsibility to administrate the area delineated by the “Mandate for Palestine.”

Great Britain [i.e., the Mandatory or Trustee] did turn over its responsibility to the United Nations as of May 14, 1948. However, the legal force of the League of Nations’ “Mandate for Palestine” [i.e., The Trust] was not terminated with the end of the British Mandate. Rather, the Trust was transferred over to the United Nations.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh, this is so sad.

Independence and sovereignty are extraordinary intangible assets that intrinsically tied together. A nation cannot have sovereignty (right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any interference) without independence (the attribute of a nation that is autonomous).

How can it claim territory for which it never controlled and maintained sovereignty over?

You keep jumping back into Israeli propaganda territory no matter how many times I post this.

The exercise of sovereignty is not the issue. It is the right to sovereignty. The people in non self governing territories have the right to sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

Just as the UN Palestine Commission helped the Jewish People attain their sovereignty by first establishing independence over Israel; that presented by exhibiting control over the territory. Conversely --- it is the very rejection and lack of cooperation with the UN Palestine Commission that was key to Hostile Arab not being able to attaining independence and sovereignty. The Mandatory gave the Hostile Arab Palestinian plenty of notice by issuing the Memorandum of the Successor Government (Feb 1948) which the UK established that Palestine was a "legal entity" but it is not a sovereign state.

The concepts of independence and sovereignty is not a "silver platter" special on the menu that the Arab Palestinian can say: Oh, I want one of them. These concepts are about sovereign equality, territorial integrity and political independence. And they apply equally to the Jewish People and the Arab Palestinian; and the protection against the use of threats and force in order to subvert the territorial integrity and political independence. That means, the Arab Palestinian (which did not cooperate with the UNPC) must refrain in their use the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Israel (which did cooperate with the UNPC).

Odd --- the people that cooperated with the UNPC - achieved independence and sovereignty; while at the same time, the people that did not cooperate with the UNPC --- DID NOT --- acquire independence and sovereignty.

(THE QUESTIONs OF PALESTINE)

But, it does not address or answer the basic question of the presented:

• How does the State of Palestine define its territory?
• How can it claim territory for which it never controlled and maintained sovereignty over?

It would be very interesting to determine what you think are the boundaries of the State of Palestine versus the State of Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R

You are still dancing around the question.

What question as all yours have been answered in full many times over. It is clearly a state of you not wanting to see those answers so you come up with your LIES

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh, this is so sad.

Independence and sovereignty are extraordinary intangible assets that intrinsically tied together. A nation cannot have sovereignty (right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any interference) without independence (the attribute of a nation that is autonomous).

How can it claim territory for which it never controlled and maintained sovereignty over?

You keep jumping back into Israeli propaganda territory no matter how many times I post this.

The exercise of sovereignty is not the issue. It is the right to sovereignty. The people in non self governing territories have the right to sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

Just as the UN Palestine Commission helped the Jewish People attain their sovereignty by first establishing independence over Israel; that presented by exhibiting control over the territory. Conversely --- it is the very rejection and lack of cooperation with the UN Palestine Commission that was key to Hostile Arab not being able to attaining independence and sovereignty. The Mandatory gave the Hostile Arab Palestinian plenty of notice by issuing the Memorandum of the Successor Government (Feb 1948) which the UK established that Palestine was a "legal entity" but it is not a sovereign state.

The concepts of independence and sovereignty is not a "silver platter" special on the menu that the Arab Palestinian can say: Oh, I want one of them. These concepts are about sovereign equality, territorial integrity and political independence. And they apply equally to the Jewish People and the Arab Palestinian; and the protection against the use of threats and force in order to subvert the territorial integrity and political independence. That means, the Arab Palestinian (which did not cooperate with the UNPC) must refrain in their use the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Israel (which did cooperate with the UNPC).

Odd --- the people that cooperated with the UNPC - achieved independence and sovereignty; while at the same time, the people that did not cooperate with the UNPC --- DID NOT --- acquire independence and sovereignty.

(THE QUESTIONs OF PALESTINE)

But, it does not address or answer the basic question of the presented:

• How does the State of Palestine define its territory?
• How can it claim territory for which it never controlled and maintained sovereignty over?

It would be very interesting to determine what you think are the boundaries of the State of Palestine versus the State of Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R

Independence and sovereignty are extraordinary intangible assets that intrinsically tied together. A nation cannot have sovereignty (right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any interference) without independence (the attribute of a nation that is autonomous).​

From the Montevideo Conference:

ARTICLE 4

States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.

Which you have been shown does not apply as it deals with the Americas, and it has no validity in international law.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh, this is so sad.

Independence and sovereignty are extraordinary intangible assets that intrinsically tied together. A nation cannot have sovereignty (right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any interference) without independence (the attribute of a nation that is autonomous).

How can it claim territory for which it never controlled and maintained sovereignty over?

You keep jumping back into Israeli propaganda territory no matter how many times I post this.

The exercise of sovereignty is not the issue. It is the right to sovereignty. The people in non self governing territories have the right to sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

Just as the UN Palestine Commission helped the Jewish People attain their sovereignty by first establishing independence over Israel; that presented by exhibiting control over the territory. Conversely --- it is the very rejection and lack of cooperation with the UN Palestine Commission that was key to Hostile Arab not being able to attaining independence and sovereignty. The Mandatory gave the Hostile Arab Palestinian plenty of notice by issuing the Memorandum of the Successor Government (Feb 1948) which the UK established that Palestine was a "legal entity" but it is not a sovereign state.

The concepts of independence and sovereignty is not a "silver platter" special on the menu that the Arab Palestinian can say: Oh, I want one of them. These concepts are about sovereign equality, territorial integrity and political independence. And they apply equally to the Jewish People and the Arab Palestinian; and the protection against the use of threats and force in order to subvert the territorial integrity and political independence. That means, the Arab Palestinian (which did not cooperate with the UNPC) must refrain in their use the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Israel (which did cooperate with the UNPC).

Odd --- the people that cooperated with the UNPC - achieved independence and sovereignty; while at the same time, the people that did not cooperate with the UNPC --- DID NOT --- acquire independence and sovereignty.

(THE QUESTIONs OF PALESTINE)

But, it does not address or answer the basic question of the presented:

• How does the State of Palestine define its territory?
• How can it claim territory for which it never controlled and maintained sovereignty over?

It would be very interesting to determine what you think are the boundaries of the State of Palestine versus the State of Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R

These concepts are about sovereign equality, territorial integrity and political independence. And they apply equally to the Jewish People and the Arab Palestinian; and the protection against the use of threats and force in order to subvert the territorial integrity and political independence.​

Links?

Links to what, your claims that only the muslims have the right to be sovereign in the M.E. ?

 

[Phoenall]

WHY would I want to boycott Israel?

So you won't be complicit in the atrocities Israel commits.

By buying Israeli products or services, you are supporting Israel. By supporting Israel, you are complicit in the crimes Israel commits.

To understand why someone would want to boycott these corporations (like SodaStream, Agrexco, etc), here are a few facts about the occupation:

-The Israeli authorities have maintained their air, land and sea blockade of Gaza, effectively imposing collective punishment on all 1.8m inhabitants.

-Israeli authorities control Palestinian imports and exports.

-They are building illegal Jewish-only settlements in Palestinian territories.

-In 2014, over 2,300 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces. 39 Israelis were killed.​

-Palestinian children are routinely tortured and killed in Israeli prisons.​

Boycotting can best be summed up this way...

Why boycott?

Boycotts enable consumers to:

1. Not be complicit in the practices of unethical corporations through supporting them financially.

2. Large scale boycotts can stop corporations engaging in unethical practices altogether.​

And finally, although this is just a rumor, I've heard boycotting Israel, makes you more attractive to the opposite sex.

First of all, I doubt I am complicit in helping anyone hurt a flea, let alone atrocities. Arabs, Palestinians and Muslims, umm, they aren't looking like poor victim morally untouchables as the OP supposes. 9/11 made my mind up on Arab- Palestinian- Muslim a long time ago. Yes, they are all connected.

You should know by now that 9/11 was a mossad/cia/fbi false flag operation on the orders of the Jewish lobby in the USA. They used the Jewish time-warp machine that allowed them to go back in time and rig the buildings with shaped charges so they would fall straight down.

 

[Phoenall]

First of all, I doubt I am complicit in helping anyone hurt a flea, let alone atrocities. Arabs, Palestinians and Muslims, umm, they aren't looking like poor victim morally untouchables as the OP supposes. 9/11 made my mind up on Arab- Palestinian- Muslim a long time ago. Yes, they are all connected.

Of coarse you're complicit; you're defending Israel.

Anyone defending Israel has blood on their hands.

BTW, the Palestinian's ARE victims.

Just as you defend hamas terrorism

Anyone defending Palestine has the blood of thousands on their hands, and are supporting war crimes and murder

Of their own making, and the problems all stem from their stupidity

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, I've answered that a number of times

It would be very interesting to determine what you think are the boundaries of the State of Palestine versus the State of Israel.

I'm pretty sure Tin's consistent argument is that there are no boundaries between Palestine and Israel. Its all Palestine. Israel has no right to exist. But he can correct me if I'm wrong.

Indeed, and that is the question that Rocco has been dancing around.

(COMMENT)

There are no Treaties and no Armistice Agreement between Israel and the Arab Palestine of the West Bank. The existing Treaty between Israel and Jordan establishes an international recognized boundary between Israel and Jordan:

Annex I (a) Jordan-Israel International Boundary Delimitation And Demarcation

2. The boundary is delimited as follows:

1. Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers
   
   A. The boundary Line shall follow the middle of the main course of the flow of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers.
   B. The boundary line shall follow natural changes (accretion or erosion) in the course of the rivers unless otherwise agreed. Artificial changes in or of the course of the rivers shall not affect the location of the boundary unless otherwise agreed. No artificial changes may be made except by agreement between both Parties.
   C. In the event of a future sudden natural change in or of the course of the rivers (avulsion or cutting of new bed) the Joint Boundary Commission (Article 3 below) shall meet as soon as possible, to decide on necessary measures, which may include physical restoration of the prior location of the river course.
   D. The boundary line in the two rivers is shown on the 1/10,000 orthophoto maps dated 1994 (Appendix III attached to this Annex).
   E. Adjustment to the boundary line in any of the rivers due to natural changes (accretion or erosion) shall be carried out whenever it is deemed necessary by the Boundary Commission or once every five years.
   F. The lines defining the special Baqura/Naharayim area are shown on the 1:10,000 orthophoto map (Appendix IV attached to this Annex).
   G.
   The orthophoto maps and image maps showing the line separating Jordan from the territory that came under Israeli Military government control in 1967 shall have that line indicated in a different presentation and the legend shall carry on it the following disclaimer:
   
   "This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory which came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of that territory.”
   
   
   
2. Dead Sea and Salt Pans
   The boundary line is shown on the 1:50,000 image maps (2 sheets Appendix II attached to the Annex). The list of geographic and Universal Transverse Mercator (UTM) coordinates of this boundary line shall be based on Israel Jordan Boundary Datum (IJBD 1994) and, when completed and agreed upon by both parties, this list of coordinates shall be binding and take precedence over the maps as to the location of the boundary line in the Dead Sea and the salt pans.
   
   
3. Wadi Araba/Emek Ha’arava
   
   A. The boundary line is shown on the 1:20,000 orthophoto maps sheets, Appendix I attached to this Annex).
   B. The land boundary shall be demarcated, under a joint boundary demarcation procedure, by boundary pillars which will be jointly located, erected, measured and documented on the basis of the boundary shown in the 1/20,000 orthophoto maps referred to in Article 2-C-(1) above. Between each two adjacent boundary pillars the boundary line shall follow a straight line.
   C. The boundary pillars shall be defined in a list of geographic and UTM coordinates based on a joint boundary datum (IJBD 94) to be agreed upon by the Joint Team of Experts appointed by the two parties (hereinafter the JTE) using joint Global Positioning System (GPS) Measurements. The list of coordinates shall be prepared, signed and approved by both Parties as soon as possible and no later than 9 months after this Treaty enters into force and shall become part of this Annex. This list of geographic and UTM coordinates when completed and agreed upon by both Parties shall be binding and shall take precedence over the maps as to the location of the boundary line of this sector.
   D. The boundary pillars shall be maintained by both Parties in accordance with a procedure to be agreed upon. The coordinates in Article 2-C-(3) above shall be used to reconstruct boundary pillars in case they are damaged, destroyed or displaced.
   E. The line defining the Al-Ghamr/Zofar area is shown on the Wadi Araba/Emek Ha'arava orthophoto map (Appendix V attached to this Annex).

1. The Gulf of Aqaba
   The Parties shall act in accordance with Article 3.7 of the Treaty.

Although the Treaty acknowledges the West Bank, moving east from the coast line of the Mediterranean Sea, there is no other internationally recognized boundary until you reach the Israeli-Jordan boundary. This is with the exception of the Oslo Accords; which establishes Areas "A" --- "B" --- "C".

Most Respectfully,
R

Of course that still leaves the question as to when Israel acquired the territory that it is claiming a border.

In the Treaty of Sevres and the San Remo conference both in 1920. They delineated the two entities in Palestine the arab muslim one and the Jewish one. These became international law and the borders of both were delineated for the world to see. Just because you don't think that these should apply to the Jews does not mean that they don't, and your wishes are 100 years too late.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Of course, I've answer that just as often.

Of course that still leaves the question as to when Israel acquired the territory that it is claiming a border.

(COMMENT)
There are multiple phases to this.

• The Jewish Agency and Provisional Government cooperated with the UNSCOP and the UNPC.
• The UNSCOP submitted recommendation to the General Assembly.
• The General Assembly adopted a recommendation and establish the Step Preparatory to Independence (SPTI).
• The Jewish Agency and Provisional Government cooperated with the UNPC and complete the essential SPTI.
• In coordination with the Successor Government, on the UK withdraw from the territory under Mandate, The Provisional Government declared Independence IAW the Recommendation.
• The Arab League forces attacked from all the adjacent Arab States. Israeli forces first repulse and pursue Arab Forces, assuming more territory as the Arab Forces withdraw and escape.
• The UN Helps negotiate Armistice Agreements.

This is the end of the first phase.

Most Respectfully,
R

There are a few things missing from your list.

• Who gave land to Israel?
• Whose land was given to Israel?
• Specifically what land was given? (borders/map)

LoN as the sovereign rulers of the land

LoN land acquired as part of the reparations of war from the Ottoman Empire

Delineated in the San Remo conference, Treaty of Sevres and the mandate of Palestine. You deny the maps because they are produced by a Zionist

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, yes, the intent was not let the Armistice lines form the permanent boundary. I agree. But it does not change the fact that Armistice Lines are protected under the Declaration of Principles. It does not undermine the sovereignty if Israel or the integrity of the Nation.

• An Armistice Line does not (repeat) does not affect the integrity of a Nation.

Indeed. Read those armistice agreements again.

(COMMENT)

Relative to our focus (West Bank), the 1949 Armistice Line is defined and totally encapsulate the West Bank; clearly identifying them as Demarcations (alla the Declaration of Principles) until replaced the Treaty which essentially dissolved the Armistice Line with Jordan and replaced it with a permanent international boundary.

Article VI(9): Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949

The Armistice Demarcation Lines defined in articles V and VI of this Agreement are agreed upon by the Parties without prejudice to future territorial settlements or boundary lines or to claims of either Party relating thereto.
​

Article 3(2): Jordan-Israel Peace Treaty was signed on October 26, 1994

The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognized international boundary between Jordan and Israel, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967.
​

Yes, I agree there was a difference in the Israeli-Egyptian Armistice Agreement, but still does not change the fact that the delineation is protected. And for all practical purposed, it has NO impact on the matter of integrity. The War was fought, and the territorial boundaries were established. And the boundaries were established between the parties to the Conflict: Israel 'vs' Egypt and Jordan. The Arab Palestinians did not have a recognized government, or any territorial control.

Article V(5), Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question.

The basic purpose of the Armistice Demarcation Line is to delineate the line beyond which the armed forces of the respective Parties shall not move except as provided in Article III of this Agreement.
​

Article II, Treaty Between Israel and Egypt : 1974

Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.
​

And again, the Armistice Line dissolves and is replaced by the permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel in the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine. Which entirely encapsulates the Gaza Strip.

You can claim what you will, but Armistice Lines are protected by the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

(THE QUESTIONs OF PALESTINE)

Claim is just merely subterfuge for the Arab Palestinian clinging to some right of insurgency, or some justification for continued hostilities. But, it does not address or answer the basic question of the present:

• How does the State of Palestine define its territory?
• How can it claim territory for which it never controlled and maintained sovereignty over?

It would be very interesting to determine what you think are the boundaries of the State of Palestine versus the State of Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R

Yes, yes, the intent was not let the Armistice lines form the permanent boundary. I agree. But it does not change the fact that Armistice Lines are protected under the Declaration of Principles. It does not undermine the sovereignty if Israel or the integrity of the Nation.​

Actually they were specifically not to be any kind of boundary at all.

That said, they did not disrupt Palestine's international boundaries at all.

UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THEY WERE ACEPTED AS AGREED BORDERS

What International borders are those, and don't quote the LoN mandate for Palestine borders as they do not delineate the nation of Palestine. Made very clear in the actual treaty setting them out

UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THEY WERE ACEPTED AS AGREED BORDERS​

Link?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, yes, the intent was not let the Armistice lines form the permanent boundary. I agree. But it does not change the fact that Armistice Lines are protected under the Declaration of Principles. It does not undermine the sovereignty if Israel or the integrity of the Nation.

• An Armistice Line does not (repeat) does not affect the integrity of a Nation.

Indeed. Read those armistice agreements again.

(COMMENT)

Relative to our focus (West Bank), the 1949 Armistice Line is defined and totally encapsulate the West Bank; clearly identifying them as Demarcations (alla the Declaration of Principles) until replaced the Treaty which essentially dissolved the Armistice Line with Jordan and replaced it with a permanent international boundary.

Article VI(9): Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949

The Armistice Demarcation Lines defined in articles V and VI of this Agreement are agreed upon by the Parties without prejudice to future territorial settlements or boundary lines or to claims of either Party relating thereto.
​

Article 3(2): Jordan-Israel Peace Treaty was signed on October 26, 1994

The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognized international boundary between Jordan and Israel, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967.
​

Yes, I agree there was a difference in the Israeli-Egyptian Armistice Agreement, but still does not change the fact that the delineation is protected. And for all practical purposed, it has NO impact on the matter of integrity. The War was fought, and the territorial boundaries were established. And the boundaries were established between the parties to the Conflict: Israel 'vs' Egypt and Jordan. The Arab Palestinians did not have a recognized government, or any territorial control.

Article V(5), Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question.

The basic purpose of the Armistice Demarcation Line is to delineate the line beyond which the armed forces of the respective Parties shall not move except as provided in Article III of this Agreement.
​

Article II, Treaty Between Israel and Egypt : 1974

Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.
​

And again, the Armistice Line dissolves and is replaced by the permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel in the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine. Which entirely encapsulates the Gaza Strip.

You can claim what you will, but Armistice Lines are protected by the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

(THE QUESTIONs OF PALESTINE)

Claim is just merely subterfuge for the Arab Palestinian clinging to some right of insurgency, or some justification for continued hostilities. But, it does not address or answer the basic question of the present:

• How does the State of Palestine define its territory?
• How can it claim territory for which it never controlled and maintained sovereignty over?

It would be very interesting to determine what you think are the boundaries of the State of Palestine versus the State of Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R

How can it claim territory for which it never controlled and maintained sovereignty over?​

You keep jumping back into Israeli propaganda territory no matter how many times I post this.

The exercise of sovereignty is not the issue. It is the right to sovereignty. The people in non self governing territories have the right to sovereignty.

When did this right become international law then, and what does it actually state. Don't forget that the Jews are also covered by all your posts so they MUST be allowed the same rights ?

Link?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh, this is so sad.

Independence and sovereignty are extraordinary intangible assets that intrinsically tied together. A nation cannot have sovereignty (right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any interference) without independence (the attribute of a nation that is autonomous).

How can it claim territory for which it never controlled and maintained sovereignty over?

You keep jumping back into Israeli propaganda territory no matter how many times I post this.

The exercise of sovereignty is not the issue. It is the right to sovereignty. The people in non self governing territories have the right to sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

Just as the UN Palestine Commission helped the Jewish People attain their sovereignty by first establishing independence over Israel; that presented by exhibiting control over the territory. Conversely --- it is the very rejection and lack of cooperation with the UN Palestine Commission that was key to Hostile Arab not being able to attaining independence and sovereignty. The Mandatory gave the Hostile Arab Palestinian plenty of notice by issuing the Memorandum of the Successor Government (Feb 1948) which the UK established that Palestine was a "legal entity" but it is not a sovereign state.

The concepts of independence and sovereignty is not a "silver platter" special on the menu that the Arab Palestinian can say: Oh, I want one of them. These concepts are about sovereign equality, territorial integrity and political independence. And they apply equally to the Jewish People and the Arab Palestinian; and the protection against the use of threats and force in order to subvert the territorial integrity and political independence. That means, the Arab Palestinian (which did not cooperate with the UNPC) must refrain in their use the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Israel (which did cooperate with the UNPC).

Odd --- the people that cooperated with the UNPC - achieved independence and sovereignty; while at the same time, the people that did not cooperate with the UNPC --- DID NOT --- acquire independence and sovereignty.

(THE QUESTIONs OF PALESTINE)

But, it does not address or answer the basic question of the presented:

• How does the State of Palestine define its territory?
• How can it claim territory for which it never controlled and maintained sovereignty over?

It would be very interesting to determine what you think are the boundaries of the State of Palestine versus the State of Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R

These concepts are about sovereign equality, territorial integrity and political independence. And they apply equally to the Jewish People and the Arab Palestinian; and the protection against the use of threats and force in order to subvert the territorial integrity and political independence.​

Links?

Links to what, your claims that only the muslims have the right to be sovereign in the M.E. ?

I never said that.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, I've answered that a number of times

It would be very interesting to determine what you think are the boundaries of the State of Palestine versus the State of Israel.

I'm pretty sure Tin's consistent argument is that there are no boundaries between Palestine and Israel. Its all Palestine. Israel has no right to exist. But he can correct me if I'm wrong.

Indeed, and that is the question that Rocco has been dancing around.

(COMMENT)

There are no Treaties and no Armistice Agreement between Israel and the Arab Palestine of the West Bank. The existing Treaty between Israel and Jordan establishes an international recognized boundary between Israel and Jordan:

Annex I (a) Jordan-Israel International Boundary Delimitation And Demarcation

2. The boundary is delimited as follows:

1. Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers
   
   A. The boundary Line shall follow the middle of the main course of the flow of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers.
   B. The boundary line shall follow natural changes (accretion or erosion) in the course of the rivers unless otherwise agreed. Artificial changes in or of the course of the rivers shall not affect the location of the boundary unless otherwise agreed. No artificial changes may be made except by agreement between both Parties.
   C. In the event of a future sudden natural change in or of the course of the rivers (avulsion or cutting of new bed) the Joint Boundary Commission (Article 3 below) shall meet as soon as possible, to decide on necessary measures, which may include physical restoration of the prior location of the river course.
   D. The boundary line in the two rivers is shown on the 1/10,000 orthophoto maps dated 1994 (Appendix III attached to this Annex).
   E. Adjustment to the boundary line in any of the rivers due to natural changes (accretion or erosion) shall be carried out whenever it is deemed necessary by the Boundary Commission or once every five years.
   F. The lines defining the special Baqura/Naharayim area are shown on the 1:10,000 orthophoto map (Appendix IV attached to this Annex).
   G.
   The orthophoto maps and image maps showing the line separating Jordan from the territory that came under Israeli Military government control in 1967 shall have that line indicated in a different presentation and the legend shall carry on it the following disclaimer:
   
   "This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory which came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of that territory.”
   
   
   
2. Dead Sea and Salt Pans
   The boundary line is shown on the 1:50,000 image maps (2 sheets Appendix II attached to the Annex). The list of geographic and Universal Transverse Mercator (UTM) coordinates of this boundary line shall be based on Israel Jordan Boundary Datum (IJBD 1994) and, when completed and agreed upon by both parties, this list of coordinates shall be binding and take precedence over the maps as to the location of the boundary line in the Dead Sea and the salt pans.
   
   
3. Wadi Araba/Emek Ha’arava
   
   A. The boundary line is shown on the 1:20,000 orthophoto maps sheets, Appendix I attached to this Annex).
   B. The land boundary shall be demarcated, under a joint boundary demarcation procedure, by boundary pillars which will be jointly located, erected, measured and documented on the basis of the boundary shown in the 1/20,000 orthophoto maps referred to in Article 2-C-(1) above. Between each two adjacent boundary pillars the boundary line shall follow a straight line.
   C. The boundary pillars shall be defined in a list of geographic and UTM coordinates based on a joint boundary datum (IJBD 94) to be agreed upon by the Joint Team of Experts appointed by the two parties (hereinafter the JTE) using joint Global Positioning System (GPS) Measurements. The list of coordinates shall be prepared, signed and approved by both Parties as soon as possible and no later than 9 months after this Treaty enters into force and shall become part of this Annex. This list of geographic and UTM coordinates when completed and agreed upon by both Parties shall be binding and shall take precedence over the maps as to the location of the boundary line of this sector.
   D. The boundary pillars shall be maintained by both Parties in accordance with a procedure to be agreed upon. The coordinates in Article 2-C-(3) above shall be used to reconstruct boundary pillars in case they are damaged, destroyed or displaced.
   E. The line defining the Al-Ghamr/Zofar area is shown on the Wadi Araba/Emek Ha'arava orthophoto map (Appendix V attached to this Annex).

1. The Gulf of Aqaba
   The Parties shall act in accordance with Article 3.7 of the Treaty.

Although the Treaty acknowledges the West Bank, moving east from the coast line of the Mediterranean Sea, there is no other internationally recognized boundary until you reach the Israeli-Jordan boundary. This is with the exception of the Oslo Accords; which establishes Areas "A" --- "B" --- "C".

Most Respectfully,
R

Of course that still leaves the question as to when Israel acquired the territory that it is claiming a border.

In the Treaty of Sevres and the San Remo conference both in 1920. They delineated the two entities in Palestine the arab muslim one and the Jewish one. These became international law and the borders of both were delineated for the world to see. Just because you don't think that these should apply to the Jews does not mean that they don't, and your wishes are 100 years too late.

Where did they say that?

 

[P F Tinmore]