Bipartisan Senate infrastructure deal would cost about $1 trillion

[DBA]

Republicans will claim they're not "actually" against it. They just have "concerns" about this or that...

Of course those concerns are cover for being against it.

Since it is a Biden initiative, Republicans will scream......Pork, Pork, Pork and vote against it

Exactly. I am ok with some infrastructure spending, but it must be on actual infrastrcure, not much of the non-infrastructure Biden and the Democrats want. Biden even tried to redefine the very definition of “infrastructure”. Like good little programmed lemmings, many democrats bought it.

Thanks for the example

Straight from the Communist News Network(CNN). How can this be considered infrastructure? If you want to argue it is needed, fine, but don’t throw it into this bill. This is the very definition of pork.

Home care services and workforce: $400 billion​

Biden would provide $400 billion to bolster caregiving for aging and disabled Americans.
His plan would expand access to long-term care services under Medicaid, eliminating the wait list for hundreds of thousands of people. It would provide more opportunity for people to receive care at home through community-based services or from family members.
It would also improve the wages of home health workers, who now make approximately $12 an hour. One in six live in poverty, the administration says. It would put in place an infrastructure to give caregiving workers the opportunity to join a union.
During his presidential campaign, Biden said he would devote $450 billion to allow more older Americans and their families to receive care at home or in their communities, as opposed to nursing homes and other institutions.

 

[NightFox]

This country sorely needs that infrastructure upgrade and the jobs it will provide...so of course Republicans are against it

It appears that Republicans are not “against it”, they’re just against certain aspects of what the Democrats originally proposed such as certain definitions of what “infrastructure” entails and of course increasing income taxes to fund it.

Now it appears there might be a bi-partisan proposal on the table to actually carry out some investment in critical infrastructure, the question is, will the Democrats accept less than what they originally wanted? Something is better than nothing, right?

Nor will the Republicans balk at not paying for it and adding massive new amounts to our debt.

True, but what’s the alternative? Continue to allow our economic efficiency to deteriorate due to the degradation of the basic infrastructure that it relies on? If there were a good private enterprise solution to the problem, I’d be all for it, however I’m not seeing anything on the horizon that addresses the problem at the scale required to correct it, do you?

Pay for it?

With what? More new currency created out of thin air, what other alternative do we have? Part of the reason we need to do that is because we’ve been ignoring the basic requirements for sustained economic growth (critical infrastructure), now the piper has shown up and wants to get paid.

At least borrowing for investment is a FAR better proposition than borrowing for consumption, right? It’s not like the duopoly is going to entertain any serious reduction in spending elsewhere to offset the costs, nor is either crime family going to increase taxes to the extent required to actually dent the current deficits, voters don’t like that and election cycles are short.

Taxes must be raised, particularly on the ultra wealthy.

Eliminate all spending on the war machine and turn the Pentagon and Langley into affordable housing.

Okay, eliminate all national defense spending, that’s what $720 billion a year? last year the Federal deficit was $3.1 TRILLION, you made dent, good work.

Now what about all those newly unemployed people that worked for or were supported by the DoD? What about all the companies involved in defense that you just put out of business, what about their employees?

Face it we’re addicted to the military-industrial complex, breaking that addiction won’t be easy, especially given that there is absolutely ZERO political will to do it and almost ZERO voter interest in doing it.

Sorry gipper, what your proposing just isn’t practical on any time horizon that makes sense, I wish it were but it isn’t.

Oh it’s practical, it’s just not possible with a criminal government run by sociopaths and psychopaths.

If it’s not possible, than it’s not practical.

I suppose you could conclude that, if you accept the status quo as impossible to change.

I don’t accept that the status quo is impossible to change, however I’m aware of the fact that in order to change it, you MUST have the will to do so and that will must be sustained over a long period of time to accomplish it. Most people don’t want radical changes to the status quo, they’re adjusted to it, they’re comfortable with it, they DEPEND on it. What they will accept are small incremental changes that they see as leading to a more comfortable future, so in order to achieve MEANINGFUL change it has to be done in tiny steps over a long period of time, we’re too focused on the short term, election cycle to election cycle to really do that.

Not to mention everybody wants different change, there’s no consensus on exactly what changes to the status quo are acceptable and NOBODY wants to SACRIFICE anything for long term goals, therefore we again arrive at the conclusion that the radical departure from the status quo that you’re proposing IS NOT PRACTICAL.

 

[DBA]

Now what about all those newly unemployed people that worked for or were supported by the DoD? What about all the companies involved in defense that you just put out of business, what about their employees?

During WWII, commercial sector manufacturers quickly switched to defense production. It can work the same the other way.

Defense contractors have top of the line engineers and scientists. They can transfer their efforts to energy, transportation, communications, healthcare.

The jobs will follow the money.

Guess what , WW II happened 80 years ago, since then the economy has grown more complex, more interconnected and more specialized.

There are no magic wands, the national defense industry can’t suddenly change sectors nor will the massive, long term disruptions in the labor force from attempting to do that suddenly vanish because we wish them away by beating the cumbaya drums , singing out slogans about our noble intentions and start hugging trees.

Then you have to deal with the millions of employees that work for the DoD, not to mention all the state and federal agency employees that are indirectly involved with it. What do we tell them? Sorry you just lost your career, good news though, you can go build windmills now.

Unlike WWII, we are not expecting Defense Contractors to switch overnight. It will happen on a contract by contract basis. As one defense contract expires, new contracts will appear in the private sector.
Defense Contractors will follow the money.

Xi and Putin have both secretly commissioned artists to commence building a 200ft tall statue of Biden which they will prominently place in Beijing and Moscow once his destruction of the US is complete. It is happening right under our noses. Years of indoctrination have worked to our adversaries advantage.

 

[rightwinger]

Now what about all those newly unemployed people that worked for or were supported by the DoD? What about all the companies involved in defense that you just put out of business, what about their employees?

During WWII, commercial sector manufacturers quickly switched to defense production. It can work the same the other way.

Defense contractors have top of the line engineers and scientists. They can transfer their efforts to energy, transportation, communications, healthcare.

The jobs will follow the money.

Guess what , WW II happened 80 years ago, since then the economy has grown more complex, more interconnected and more specialized.

There are no magic wands, the national defense industry can’t suddenly change sectors nor will the massive, long term disruptions in the labor force from attempting to do that suddenly vanish because we wish them away by beating the cumbaya drums , singing out slogans about our noble intentions and start hugging trees.

Then you have to deal with the millions of employees that work for the DoD, not to mention all the state and federal agency employees that are indirectly involved with it. What do we tell them? Sorry you just lost your career, good news though, you can go build windmills now.

Unlike WWII, we are not expecting Defense Contractors to switch overnight. It will happen on a contract by contract basis. As one defense contract expires, new contracts will appear in the private sector.
Defense Contractors will follow the money.

Xi and Putin have both secretly commissioned artists to commence building a 200ft tall statue of Biden which they will prominently place in Beijing and Moscow once his destruction of the US is complete. It is happening right under our noses. Years of indoctrination have worked to our adversaries advantage.

 

[NightFox]

Now what about all those newly unemployed people that worked for or were supported by the DoD? What about all the companies involved in defense that you just put out of business, what about their employees?

During WWII, commercial sector manufacturers quickly switched to defense production. It can work the same the other way.

Defense contractors have top of the line engineers and scientists. They can transfer their efforts to energy, transportation, communications, healthcare.

The jobs will follow the money.

Guess what , WW II happened 80 years ago, since then the economy has grown more complex, more interconnected and more specialized.

There are no magic wands, the national defense industry can’t suddenly change sectors nor will the massive, long term disruptions in the labor force from attempting to do that suddenly vanish because we wish them away by beating the cumbaya drums , singing out slogans about our noble intentions and start hugging trees.

Then you have to deal with the millions of employees that work for the DoD, not to mention all the state and federal agency employees that are indirectly involved with it. What do we tell them? Sorry you just lost your career, good news though, you can go build windmills now.

Unlike WWII, we are not expecting Defense Contractors to switch overnight. It will happen on a contract by contract basis. As one defense contract expires, new contracts will appear in the private sector.
Defense Contractors will follow the money.

So you accept that fact that your WW II analogy is invalid? If that’s the case then good, we’re making progress.

A gradual wind down of the the military-industrial complex is possible but you would have to a thorough long term plan for accomplishing it, with all the negative consequences taken into account up front, along with plans for contingencies. Then you have to muster the political will to stick to the plan over a long enough period of time to actually achieve appreciable results, how likely is that in our current political climate?

Here’s a contingency for you, what if those contracts that we expire are simply taken up by foreign governments and the defense contractors just start building weapons for other countries? There’s demand there right? What do you do about that possibility?

 

[rightwinger]

Now what about all those newly unemployed people that worked for or were supported by the DoD? What about all the companies involved in defense that you just put out of business, what about their employees?

During WWII, commercial sector manufacturers quickly switched to defense production. It can work the same the other way.

Defense contractors have top of the line engineers and scientists. They can transfer their efforts to energy, transportation, communications, healthcare.

The jobs will follow the money.

Guess what , WW II happened 80 years ago, since then the economy has grown more complex, more interconnected and more specialized.

There are no magic wands, the national defense industry can’t suddenly change sectors nor will the massive, long term disruptions in the labor force from attempting to do that suddenly vanish because we wish them away by beating the cumbaya drums , singing out slogans about our noble intentions and start hugging trees.

Then you have to deal with the millions of employees that work for the DoD, not to mention all the state and federal agency employees that are indirectly involved with it. What do we tell them? Sorry you just lost your career, good news though, you can go build windmills now.

Unlike WWII, we are not expecting Defense Contractors to switch overnight. It will happen on a contract by contract basis. As one defense contract expires, new contracts will appear in the private sector.
Defense Contractors will follow the money.

So you accept that fact that your WW II analogy is invalid? If that’s the case then good, we’re making progress.

A gradual wind down of the the military-industrial complex is possible but you would have to a thorough long term plan for accomplishing it, with all the negative consequences taken into account up front, along with plans for contingencies. Then you have to muster the political will to stick to the plan over a long enough period of time to actually achieve appreciable results, how likely is that in our current political climate?

Here’s a contingency for you, what if those contracts that we expire are simply taken up by foreign governments and the defense contractors just start building weapons for other countries? There’s demand there right? What do you do about that possibility?

WWII proved industry is capable of changing direction. That is still valid.
Nobody is advocating we just pull the plug on defense industries. But we spend 42 cents of every defense dollar in the world. Other countries spend it on modern infrastructure, education, healthcare.

So what happens if instead of a $750 billion defense budget, we have a $650 billion defense budget with the other $100 billion going into other sectors?

Defense contractors will follow the money

 

[NightFox]

Now what about all those newly unemployed people that worked for or were supported by the DoD? What about all the companies involved in defense that you just put out of business, what about their employees?

During WWII, commercial sector manufacturers quickly switched to defense production. It can work the same the other way.

Defense contractors have top of the line engineers and scientists. They can transfer their efforts to energy, transportation, communications, healthcare.

The jobs will follow the money.

Guess what , WW II happened 80 years ago, since then the economy has grown more complex, more interconnected and more specialized.

There are no magic wands, the national defense industry can’t suddenly change sectors nor will the massive, long term disruptions in the labor force from attempting to do that suddenly vanish because we wish them away by beating the cumbaya drums , singing out slogans about our noble intentions and start hugging trees.

Then you have to deal with the millions of employees that work for the DoD, not to mention all the state and federal agency employees that are indirectly involved with it. What do we tell them? Sorry you just lost your career, good news though, you can go build windmills now.

Unlike WWII, we are not expecting Defense Contractors to switch overnight. It will happen on a contract by contract basis. As one defense contract expires, new contracts will appear in the private sector.
Defense Contractors will follow the money.

So you accept that fact that your WW II analogy is invalid? If that’s the case then good, we’re making progress.

A gradual wind down of the the military-industrial complex is possible but you would have to a thorough long term plan for accomplishing it, with all the negative consequences taken into account up front, along with plans for contingencies. Then you have to muster the political will to stick to the plan over a long enough period of time to actually achieve appreciable results, how likely is that in our current political climate?

Here’s a contingency for you, what if those contracts that we expire are simply taken up by foreign governments and the defense contractors just start building weapons for other countries? There’s demand there right? What do you do about that possibility?

WWII proved industry is capable of changing direction. That is still valid.

Not really given that the economy at the beginning of WW II was completely different from the economy of 2021 and so were the CIRCUMSTANCES, there is no WW II today and there was no military-industrial complex at the beginning of WW II.

It’s like saying that just because we used to depend on horses for transportation 100 years ago proves that we can go back to depending on horses today, so let’s get rid of the Auto Industry.

Nobody is advocating we just pull the plug on defense industries. But we spend 42 cents of every defense dollar in the world. Other countries spend it on modern infrastructure, education, healthcare.

So what happens if instead of a $750 billion defense budget, we have a $650 billion defense budget with the other $100 billion going into other sectors?

Defense contractors will follow the money

Yeah, defense contracts will follow the money, they’ll follow it right to the foreign governments that are willing to spend it on defense, unfortunately they’ll likely leave many of their current American Employees behind.

What you’re advocating is going to take decades to bear any meaningful fruit, you’re going to need to sustain the political will over that period of time to achieve it, what happens the next time the Republicans are in power? You think they’re going to go along with your plan? What happens if another major war crops up between now and then?

 

[Dekster]

This country sorely needs that infrastructure upgrade and the jobs it will provide...so of course Republicans are against it

No, the GOP opposed Biden's plan because he uses it as a pretext for more taxes.

 

[Lesh]

This country sorely needs that infrastructure upgrade and the jobs it will provide...so of course Republicans are against it

No, the GOP opposed Biden's plan because he uses it as a pretext for more taxes.

Bullshit. Just one more whine

 

[rightwinger]

Now what about all those newly unemployed people that worked for or were supported by the DoD? What about all the companies involved in defense that you just put out of business, what about their employees?

During WWII, commercial sector manufacturers quickly switched to defense production. It can work the same the other way.

Defense contractors have top of the line engineers and scientists. They can transfer their efforts to energy, transportation, communications, healthcare.

The jobs will follow the money.

Guess what , WW II happened 80 years ago, since then the economy has grown more complex, more interconnected and more specialized.

There are no magic wands, the national defense industry can’t suddenly change sectors nor will the massive, long term disruptions in the labor force from attempting to do that suddenly vanish because we wish them away by beating the cumbaya drums , singing out slogans about our noble intentions and start hugging trees.

Then you have to deal with the millions of employees that work for the DoD, not to mention all the state and federal agency employees that are indirectly involved with it. What do we tell them? Sorry you just lost your career, good news though, you can go build windmills now.

Unlike WWII, we are not expecting Defense Contractors to switch overnight. It will happen on a contract by contract basis. As one defense contract expires, new contracts will appear in the private sector.
Defense Contractors will follow the money.

So you accept that fact that your WW II analogy is invalid? If that’s the case then good, we’re making progress.

A gradual wind down of the the military-industrial complex is possible but you would have to a thorough long term plan for accomplishing it, with all the negative consequences taken into account up front, along with plans for contingencies. Then you have to muster the political will to stick to the plan over a long enough period of time to actually achieve appreciable results, how likely is that in our current political climate?

Here’s a contingency for you, what if those contracts that we expire are simply taken up by foreign governments and the defense contractors just start building weapons for other countries? There’s demand there right? What do you do about that possibility?

WWII proved industry is capable of changing direction. That is still valid.

Not really given that the economy at the beginning of WW II was completely different from the economy of 2021 and so were the CIRCUMSTANCES, there is no WW II today and there was no military-industrial complex at the beginning of WW II.

It’s like saying that just because we used to depend on horses for transportation 100 years ago proves that we can go back to depending on horses today, so let’s get rid of the Auto Industry.

Nobody is advocating we just pull the plug on defense industries. But we spend 42 cents of every defense dollar in the world. Other countries spend it on modern infrastructure, education, healthcare.

So what happens if instead of a $750 billion defense budget, we have a $650 billion defense budget with the other $100 billion going into other sectors?

Defense contractors will follow the money

Yeah, defense contracts will follow the money, they’ll follow it right to the foreign governments that are willing to spend it on defense, unfortunately they’ll likely leave many of their current American Employees behind.

What you’re advocating is going to take decades to bear any meaningful fruit, you’re going to need to sustain the political will over that period of time to achieve it, what happens the next time the Republicans are in power? You think they’re going to go along with your plan? What happens if another major war crops up between now and then?

We have decades to accomplish a transfer from military to commercial. Butter instead of guns. We just need to start

Other nations have done it and they have more modern infrastructure, lower cost healthcare, lower cost higher education, their workers have more benefits. It comes down to priorities

We have a more powerful military than the next ten nations combined. We need to end our paranoia

Not eliminate our military but reduce it from $750 billion a year to $500 billion. We will still be safe.
We need to stop being the worlds policeman and let other nations assume the burden

 

[NightFox]

Now what about all those newly unemployed people that worked for or were supported by the DoD? What about all the companies involved in defense that you just put out of business, what about their employees?

During WWII, commercial sector manufacturers quickly switched to defense production. It can work the same the other way.

Defense contractors have top of the line engineers and scientists. They can transfer their efforts to energy, transportation, communications, healthcare.

The jobs will follow the money.

Guess what , WW II happened 80 years ago, since then the economy has grown more complex, more interconnected and more specialized.

There are no magic wands, the national defense industry can’t suddenly change sectors nor will the massive, long term disruptions in the labor force from attempting to do that suddenly vanish because we wish them away by beating the cumbaya drums , singing out slogans about our noble intentions and start hugging trees.

Then you have to deal with the millions of employees that work for the DoD, not to mention all the state and federal agency employees that are indirectly involved with it. What do we tell them? Sorry you just lost your career, good news though, you can go build windmills now.

Unlike WWII, we are not expecting Defense Contractors to switch overnight. It will happen on a contract by contract basis. As one defense contract expires, new contracts will appear in the private sector.
Defense Contractors will follow the money.

So you accept that fact that your WW II analogy is invalid? If that’s the case then good, we’re making progress.

A gradual wind down of the the military-industrial complex is possible but you would have to a thorough long term plan for accomplishing it, with all the negative consequences taken into account up front, along with plans for contingencies. Then you have to muster the political will to stick to the plan over a long enough period of time to actually achieve appreciable results, how likely is that in our current political climate?

Here’s a contingency for you, what if those contracts that we expire are simply taken up by foreign governments and the defense contractors just start building weapons for other countries? There’s demand there right? What do you do about that possibility?

WWII proved industry is capable of changing direction. That is still valid.

Not really given that the economy at the beginning of WW II was completely different from the economy of 2021 and so were the CIRCUMSTANCES, there is no WW II today and there was no military-industrial complex at the beginning of WW II.

It’s like saying that just because we used to depend on horses for transportation 100 years ago proves that we can go back to depending on horses today, so let’s get rid of the Auto Industry.

Nobody is advocating we just pull the plug on defense industries. But we spend 42 cents of every defense dollar in the world. Other countries spend it on modern infrastructure, education, healthcare.

So what happens if instead of a $750 billion defense budget, we have a $650 billion defense budget with the other $100 billion going into other sectors?

Defense contractors will follow the money

Yeah, defense contracts will follow the money, they’ll follow it right to the foreign governments that are willing to spend it on defense, unfortunately they’ll likely leave many of their current American Employees behind.

What you’re advocating is going to take decades to bear any meaningful fruit, you’re going to need to sustain the political will over that period of time to achieve it, what happens the next time the Republicans are in power? You think they’re going to go along with your plan? What happens if another major war crops up between now and then?

We have decades to accomplish a transfer from military to commercial. Butter instead of guns. We just need to start

Other nations have done it and they have more modern infrastructure, lower cost healthcare, lower cost higher education, their workers have more benefits. It comes down to priorities

We have a more powerful military than the next ten nations combined. We need to end our paranoia

Not eliminate our military but reduce it from $750 billion a year to $500 billion. We will still be safe.
We need to stop being the worlds policeman and let other nations assume the burden

I'm all for the laudable goal you're suggesting, heck I would even be onboard for cutting defense expenditures to an even greater extent than you suggest if it were practical.

However the issues that I pointed out still remain unresolved, specifically the political will over decades required to achieve it and the issue with the rotation of the defense industry to foreign shores and/or other domestic pursuits. The last time any meaningful effort to cut defense spending was in the 1990's and the so called "peace dividend", how long did that "plan" last? Less than 10 years, by 2000 defense spending was $5 billion less than what is was in 1990 (not adjusted for inflation), between 1990 and today defense spending as a % of GDP has fallen significantly but that just represents the fact that the economy grew faster than increases in defense spending, defense spending has been increasing in terms of dollars ever since. So what we REALLY achieved is reducing the year over year INCREASES in defense spending, not the spending itself.

Now, you have warhawk elements firmly entrenched within the GOP establishment that will cut short any such plans the moment they get back into power and you still have to deal with the fact that any moves toward stopping the military-industrial complex gravy train will bring about an enormous amount of resistance from the defense industry (think armies of lobbyists and mountains of campaign contributions, even larger than what exists now).

What your plan *might* be able to achieve is some short term nibbling at the edges but it's highly doubtful it'll result in meaningful long term spending reduction.

The status quo is that the military is over-extended and under-resourced, you have to first reduce the scope of its mission (requiring the voters to get behind that) and then begin to bring resources inline with that smaller mission scope (again requiring the voters to get behind it) and then *maybe* we can get everyone onboard to sustain that new level of spending over the long haul, that is if another boogie man doesn't crop up between now and then that puts us back on "gotta be ready for a major war that will last decades" mode.

 

[rightwinger]

Now what about all those newly unemployed people that worked for or were supported by the DoD? What about all the companies involved in defense that you just put out of business, what about their employees?

During WWII, commercial sector manufacturers quickly switched to defense production. It can work the same the other way.

Defense contractors have top of the line engineers and scientists. They can transfer their efforts to energy, transportation, communications, healthcare.

The jobs will follow the money.

Guess what , WW II happened 80 years ago, since then the economy has grown more complex, more interconnected and more specialized.

There are no magic wands, the national defense industry can’t suddenly change sectors nor will the massive, long term disruptions in the labor force from attempting to do that suddenly vanish because we wish them away by beating the cumbaya drums , singing out slogans about our noble intentions and start hugging trees.

Then you have to deal with the millions of employees that work for the DoD, not to mention all the state and federal agency employees that are indirectly involved with it. What do we tell them? Sorry you just lost your career, good news though, you can go build windmills now.

Unlike WWII, we are not expecting Defense Contractors to switch overnight. It will happen on a contract by contract basis. As one defense contract expires, new contracts will appear in the private sector.
Defense Contractors will follow the money.

So you accept that fact that your WW II analogy is invalid? If that’s the case then good, we’re making progress.

A gradual wind down of the the military-industrial complex is possible but you would have to a thorough long term plan for accomplishing it, with all the negative consequences taken into account up front, along with plans for contingencies. Then you have to muster the political will to stick to the plan over a long enough period of time to actually achieve appreciable results, how likely is that in our current political climate?

Here’s a contingency for you, what if those contracts that we expire are simply taken up by foreign governments and the defense contractors just start building weapons for other countries? There’s demand there right? What do you do about that possibility?

WWII proved industry is capable of changing direction. That is still valid.

Not really given that the economy at the beginning of WW II was completely different from the economy of 2021 and so were the CIRCUMSTANCES, there is no WW II today and there was no military-industrial complex at the beginning of WW II.

It’s like saying that just because we used to depend on horses for transportation 100 years ago proves that we can go back to depending on horses today, so let’s get rid of the Auto Industry.

Nobody is advocating we just pull the plug on defense industries. But we spend 42 cents of every defense dollar in the world. Other countries spend it on modern infrastructure, education, healthcare.

So what happens if instead of a $750 billion defense budget, we have a $650 billion defense budget with the other $100 billion going into other sectors?

Defense contractors will follow the money

Yeah, defense contracts will follow the money, they’ll follow it right to the foreign governments that are willing to spend it on defense, unfortunately they’ll likely leave many of their current American Employees behind.

What you’re advocating is going to take decades to bear any meaningful fruit, you’re going to need to sustain the political will over that period of time to achieve it, what happens the next time the Republicans are in power? You think they’re going to go along with your plan? What happens if another major war crops up between now and then?

We have decades to accomplish a transfer from military to commercial. Butter instead of guns. We just need to start

Other nations have done it and they have more modern infrastructure, lower cost healthcare, lower cost higher education, their workers have more benefits. It comes down to priorities

We have a more powerful military than the next ten nations combined. We need to end our paranoia

Not eliminate our military but reduce it from $750 billion a year to $500 billion. We will still be safe.
We need to stop being the worlds policeman and let other nations assume the burden

I'm all for the laudable goal you're suggesting, heck I would even be onboard for cutting defense expenditures to an even greater extent than you suggest if it were practical.

However the issues that I pointed out still remain unresolved, specifically the political will over decades required to achieve it and the issue with the rotation of the defense industry to foreign shores and/or other domestic pursuits. The last time any meaningful effort to cut defense spending was in the 1990's and the so called "peace dividend", how long did that "plan" last? Less than 10 years, by 2000 defense spending was $5 billion less than what is was in 1990 (not adjusted for inflation), between 1990 and today defense spending as a % of GDP has fallen significantly but that just represents the fact that the economy grew faster than increases in defense spending, defense spending has been increasing in terms of dollars ever since. So what we REALLY achieved is reducing the year over year INCREASES in defense spending, not the spending itself.

Now, you have warhawk elements firmly entrenched within the GOP establishment that will cut short any such plans the moment they get back into power and you still have to deal with the fact that any moves toward stopping the military-industrial complex gravy train will bring about an enormous amount of resistance from the defense industry (think armies of lobbyists and mountains of campaign contributions, even larger than what exists now).

What your plan *might* be able to achieve is some short term nibbling at the edges but it's highly doubtful it'll result in meaningful long term spending reduction.

The status quo is that the military is over-extended and under-resourced, you have to first reduce the scope of its mission (requiring the voters to get behind that) and then begin to bring resources inline with that smaller mission scope (again requiring the voters to get behind it) and then *maybe* we can get everyone onboard to sustain that new level of spending over the long haul, that is if another boogie man doesn't crop up between now and then that puts us back on "gotta be ready for a major war that will last decades" mode.

We have given in to the fear mongers on the right. Any cut to defense spending is immediately met with threats of Commies marching down Main Street.

In actuality, our shores have not been invaded in 200 years. No country on earth has the ability to launch an invasion. Two massive oceans and the worlds most powerful Navy assures that.

Cutting our Defense budget would impact our ability to enforce our will across the globe. We may have to turn that role over to our allies. We may not be able to conduct war in two theaters simultaneously and it may take the Navy another two weeks to arrive on a distant shore.

 

[Dekster]

This country sorely needs that infrastructure upgrade and the jobs it will provide...so of course Republicans are against it

No, the GOP opposed Biden's plan because he uses it as a pretext for more taxes.

Bullshit. Just one more whine

LOL Boo Hoo Biden has already walked away from the bipartisan deal precisely because republicans refuse to give him tax increases to pay for it. Your MSM cult has already betrayed you: Biden talks reconciliation with Schumer as infrastructure negotiations falter

 

[rightwinger]

This country sorely needs that infrastructure upgrade and the jobs it will provide...so of course Republicans are against it

No, the GOP opposed Biden's plan because he uses it as a pretext for more taxes.

Bullshit. Just one more whine

LOL Boo Hoo Biden has already walked away from the bipartisan deal precisely because republicans refuse to give him tax increases to pay for it. Your MSM cult has already betrayed you: Biden talks reconciliation with Schumer as infrastructure negotiations falter

Gotta laugh at you guys

You bitch about debt then whine if taxes are raised to pay for it

 

[NightFox]

Now what about all those newly unemployed people that worked for or were supported by the DoD? What about all the companies involved in defense that you just put out of business, what about their employees?

During WWII, commercial sector manufacturers quickly switched to defense production. It can work the same the other way.

Defense contractors have top of the line engineers and scientists. They can transfer their efforts to energy, transportation, communications, healthcare.

The jobs will follow the money.

Guess what , WW II happened 80 years ago, since then the economy has grown more complex, more interconnected and more specialized.

There are no magic wands, the national defense industry can’t suddenly change sectors nor will the massive, long term disruptions in the labor force from attempting to do that suddenly vanish because we wish them away by beating the cumbaya drums , singing out slogans about our noble intentions and start hugging trees.

Then you have to deal with the millions of employees that work for the DoD, not to mention all the state and federal agency employees that are indirectly involved with it. What do we tell them? Sorry you just lost your career, good news though, you can go build windmills now.

Unlike WWII, we are not expecting Defense Contractors to switch overnight. It will happen on a contract by contract basis. As one defense contract expires, new contracts will appear in the private sector.
Defense Contractors will follow the money.

So you accept that fact that your WW II analogy is invalid? If that’s the case then good, we’re making progress.

A gradual wind down of the the military-industrial complex is possible but you would have to a thorough long term plan for accomplishing it, with all the negative consequences taken into account up front, along with plans for contingencies. Then you have to muster the political will to stick to the plan over a long enough period of time to actually achieve appreciable results, how likely is that in our current political climate?

Here’s a contingency for you, what if those contracts that we expire are simply taken up by foreign governments and the defense contractors just start building weapons for other countries? There’s demand there right? What do you do about that possibility?

WWII proved industry is capable of changing direction. That is still valid.

Not really given that the economy at the beginning of WW II was completely different from the economy of 2021 and so were the CIRCUMSTANCES, there is no WW II today and there was no military-industrial complex at the beginning of WW II.

It’s like saying that just because we used to depend on horses for transportation 100 years ago proves that we can go back to depending on horses today, so let’s get rid of the Auto Industry.

Nobody is advocating we just pull the plug on defense industries. But we spend 42 cents of every defense dollar in the world. Other countries spend it on modern infrastructure, education, healthcare.

So what happens if instead of a $750 billion defense budget, we have a $650 billion defense budget with the other $100 billion going into other sectors?

Defense contractors will follow the money

Yeah, defense contracts will follow the money, they’ll follow it right to the foreign governments that are willing to spend it on defense, unfortunately they’ll likely leave many of their current American Employees behind.

What you’re advocating is going to take decades to bear any meaningful fruit, you’re going to need to sustain the political will over that period of time to achieve it, what happens the next time the Republicans are in power? You think they’re going to go along with your plan? What happens if another major war crops up between now and then?

We have decades to accomplish a transfer from military to commercial. Butter instead of guns. We just need to start

Other nations have done it and they have more modern infrastructure, lower cost healthcare, lower cost higher education, their workers have more benefits. It comes down to priorities

We have a more powerful military than the next ten nations combined. We need to end our paranoia

Not eliminate our military but reduce it from $750 billion a year to $500 billion. We will still be safe.
We need to stop being the worlds policeman and let other nations assume the burden

I'm all for the laudable goal you're suggesting, heck I would even be onboard for cutting defense expenditures to an even greater extent than you suggest if it were practical.

However the issues that I pointed out still remain unresolved, specifically the political will over decades required to achieve it and the issue with the rotation of the defense industry to foreign shores and/or other domestic pursuits. The last time any meaningful effort to cut defense spending was in the 1990's and the so called "peace dividend", how long did that "plan" last? Less than 10 years, by 2000 defense spending was $5 billion less than what is was in 1990 (not adjusted for inflation), between 1990 and today defense spending as a % of GDP has fallen significantly but that just represents the fact that the economy grew faster than increases in defense spending, defense spending has been increasing in terms of dollars ever since. So what we REALLY achieved is reducing the year over year INCREASES in defense spending, not the spending itself.

Now, you have warhawk elements firmly entrenched within the GOP establishment that will cut short any such plans the moment they get back into power and you still have to deal with the fact that any moves toward stopping the military-industrial complex gravy train will bring about an enormous amount of resistance from the defense industry (think armies of lobbyists and mountains of campaign contributions, even larger than what exists now).

What your plan *might* be able to achieve is some short term nibbling at the edges but it's highly doubtful it'll result in meaningful long term spending reduction.

The status quo is that the military is over-extended and under-resourced, you have to first reduce the scope of its mission (requiring the voters to get behind that) and then begin to bring resources inline with that smaller mission scope (again requiring the voters to get behind it) and then *maybe* we can get everyone onboard to sustain that new level of spending over the long haul, that is if another boogie man doesn't crop up between now and then that puts us back on "gotta be ready for a major war that will last decades" mode.

We have given in to the fear mongers on the right. Any cut to defense spending is immediately met with threats of Commies marching down Main Street.

In actuality, our shores have not been invaded in 200 years. No country on earth has the ability to launch an invasion. Two massive oceans and the worlds most powerful Navy assures that.

Cutting our Defense budget would impact our ability to enforce our will across the globe. We may have to turn that role over to our allies. We may not be able to conduct war in two theaters simultaneously and it may take the Navy another two weeks to arrive on a distant shore.

That’s exactly what I was talking about when I referred to the scope of the military’s mission.

It appears that you and I agree in principle on what the goal should be but differ on the practicalities involved, you’ve raised some good points that are worthy of further consideration. I appreciate the rational and civil discussion, it’s nice that can still occur every once in a while on a political message board.

Take care and enjoy you Saturday!

 

[Lesh]

This country sorely needs that infrastructure upgrade and the jobs it will provide...so of course Republicans are against it

No, the GOP opposed Biden's plan because he uses it as a pretext for more taxes.

Bullshit. Just one more whine

LOL Boo Hoo Biden has already walked away from the bipartisan deal precisely because republicans refuse to give him tax increases to pay for it. Your MSM cult has already betrayed you: Biden talks reconciliation with Schumer as infrastructure negotiations falter

Gotta laugh at you guys

You bitch about debt then whine if taxes are raised to pay for it

Bitching like that is nothing but a way of pretending to be kinda for something they are absolutely against.
Economic success

 

[rightwinger]

This country sorely needs that infrastructure upgrade and the jobs it will provide...so of course Republicans are against it

No, the GOP opposed Biden's plan because he uses it as a pretext for more taxes.

Bullshit. Just one more whine

LOL Boo Hoo Biden has already walked away from the bipartisan deal precisely because republicans refuse to give him tax increases to pay for it. Your MSM cult has already betrayed you: Biden talks reconciliation with Schumer as infrastructure negotiations falter

Gotta laugh at you guys

You bitch about debt then whine if taxes are raised to pay for it

Bitching like that is nothing but a way of pretending to be kinda for something they are absolutely against.
Economic success

Conservatives say they support infrastructure but find ways to block passage. Pork they say.
ALL infrastructure is pork....some get it, some don’t.

They support it, but only if it is FREE

Cant borrow money to pay for it, can’t raise taxes