Bill Still's Money Masters

[joewp]

So again, someone, somewhere is paying interest on that money because it was created as a loan.

No, the $20s were not created as a loan.

So where was their value created? Please remember, when new, crisp stacks of $20 bills are sitting in the BE&P's vault, they're not money.

So where was their value created?

When the Fed sells them to a bank.

Absolutely right. Well, kind of. The Fed ships them to the banks and debits their account. Since their account at the Fed represents money the regional Fed bank owes the bank, it is debt. The $20 is just another representation of a loan. That's why they're called federal reserve notes.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

So where was their value created? Please remember, when new, crisp stacks of $20 bills are sitting in the BE&P's vault, they're not money.

So where was their value created?

When the Fed sells them to a bank.

Absolutely right. Well, kind of. The Fed ships them to the banks and debits their account. Since their account at the Fed represents money the regional Fed bank owes the bank, it is debt. The $20 is just another representation of a loan. That's why they're called federal reserve notes.

Absolutely right. Well, kind of. The Fed ships them to the banks and debits their account.

Yes, the banks pay for their FRNs, they aren't created from debt.
No interest attached.

 

[joewp]

You're half right, Eddie. When small and medium sized banks get into trouble, they end up being taken over by the FDIC who then doles out their assets to other, larger banks.

if I disagreed I'll pay you $10,000. Bet or run away with your liberal strawman between your legs. Slow?

Ya know, I'm not even sure what you mean. The way I read it is since you disagree, you now owe me $10,000. And I thought my point was pertinent to the general topic of this thread.

However, when the big NY banks get into trouble, they get bailed out by the taxpayers (too big too fail),

some got bailed out once and paid the money back and other huge banks went bankrupt like Bear, WaMu, Lehman, Merryl,etc etc. What planet have you been on????

Bear Sterns, Lehman Bros. and Merryl Lynch were all brokerage houses, they were not in the Federal Reserve System. Washington Mutual wasn't a big NY bank and was eaten by JP Morgan Chase. Meanwhile, JP Morgan Chase, Citibank and Goldman Sachs are big NY banks. They exist and are stronger than ever.

which is one of Griffin's alleged objectives of the cartel; to keep the control of the money supply in the big NY banks.

too stupid by 1000%!! Money supply is in hands of Federal Reserve

Most observers say the Federal Reserve Bank of New York is the leader of the Fed. And who owns the FRBNY?
JP Morgan Chase
Citibank
Goldman Sachs

Ya know, the big NY banks.

For someone who still insists that supermarkets don't have substantial permanent assets, you throw the 'stupid' thing out way too much.

again too stupid by 1000%. Its the classic ROI example in Finance 101 which, surprise, the liberal fool has not taken!
A supermarket can rent space and buy inventory on 120 day terms thus needing no fixes assets while a utility would have to built and pay for a nuclear power plant asset at a cost in the billions yet both yield the same ROI!!

Way over you pea brain liberal head - right??

Not at all. Economic fantasy is fun to play. How about I start a utility company, buy electricity from a Canadian dam for cheap, and sell it to my customers in NY, using the existing utility's power lines. Look, Ma! No Assets!

But a viable business model in the real world for a utility or a supermarket?
Not so much.

 

[joewp]

So where was their value created?

When the Fed sells them to a bank.

Absolutely right. Well, kind of. The Fed ships them to the banks and debits their account. Since their account at the Fed represents money the regional Fed bank owes the bank, it is debt. The $20 is just another representation of a loan. That's why they're called federal reserve notes.

Absolutely right. Well, kind of. The Fed ships them to the banks and debits their account.

Yes, the banks pay for their FRNs, they aren't created from debt.
No interest attached.

Where did the banks get the money to buy the notes, ultimately speaking, that is?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

How about I start a utility company, buy electricity from a Canadian dam for cheap, and sell it to my customers in NY, using the existing utility's power lines. Look, Ma! No Assets!

too stupid of course!!

Electric utility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An electric utility is an electric power company (often a public utility) that engages
in the generation, transmission, and distribution of electricity for sale generally ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_utility

But a viable business model in the real world for a utility or a supermarket?
Not so much.

as I said the supermarket/utility ROI example is a main stay in Finance text books. Have you been to college??

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Most observers say the Federal Reserve Bank of New York is the leader of the Fed. And who owns the FRBNY?
JP Morgan Chase
Citibank
Goldman Sachs

Ya know, the big NY banks.

and your point if you know it is??????????????????????????

 

[joewp]

So says the guy who thinks supermarkets don't have fixed assets.

very few as compared to asset heavy businesses like giant utilities which was the point that obviously went way over your head as usual

What seemed to have gone over your head, as facts usually do, is I posted Kroger's and Con Ed's balance sheets, and Kroger's had a higher percentage of fixed assets.

Welfare payments? Really? They'd "go back to work"? WHERE???

too stupid!! Ever hear of the law of supply and demand?? Supply equals demand for labor as long as liberals aren't paying people not to work and fixing the price. Over your head once again??

What should they do Ed, starve to death homeless on the street?

Of course, what you refuse to see is that there are almost 3 times the applicants out there for every job opening. So right now, there is a greater supply of labor than there is demand for it. This is reflected in the fact that some of my friends got no raises, and some even pay cuts in recent years.

And just in case it escaped your notice, ultimately the demand for labor comes from demand for products and services.

And eliminating the minimum wage would not result in employers hiring more labor. How many businesses do you know that hire people just because they're cheap, even if there's no work for them? The number of workers in any company is solely based on the consumer demand for that businesses products and/or services, nothing more or less.

Wouldn't it be stupid of en employer to hire more employees than he needs?
Are you calling businesses stupid?

I have a few friends who are only being kept alive by unemployment insurance. They've been trying to find jobs, even working delivering pizzas, or bartending (these are college-educated people with masters degrees).
What world do you live in where just wanting a job gets you one?

ever hear of the law of supply and demand?? The entire economy runs it. Its for example why your supermarket has just the right number of apples each day. IF we don't have the right number of jobs its only because liberals interfere with the market. Over your head once again??

It's all just so simple for you, isn't it? If you think it's bad, it's 'liberal'.

Please tell me, what dream world do you live in where supermarkets never run out of apples because they didn't order enough, or never have to dump them in the garbage because they ordered too many for the demand?

 

[joewp]

Most observers say the Federal Reserve Bank of New York is the leader of the Fed. And who owns the FRBNY?
JP Morgan Chase
Citibank
Goldman Sachs

Ya know, the big NY banks.

and your point if you know it is??????????????????????????

Um, I said the big NY banks dictate the money supply. You objected and said the Fed does.
I'm merely demonstrating how the big NY banks mostly own and run the Fed.

Please try to keep up, thanks.

By the way, I would assume you identify as a 'conservative'. Does that mean you also think the earth was created 6.000 years ago by an imaginary sky-daddy?

Cause that would explain a lot....

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Um, I said the big NY banks dictate the money supply. You objected and said the Fed does.
I'm merely demonstrating how the big NY banks mostly own and run the Fed.Please try to keep up, thanks.

dear, please remember you are a liberal and so will be slow, very very slow. If you have evidence that the NY Banks dictate the money supply rather than Bernanke and board I will pay you $10,000. Bet or run away with your liberal tail between your legs.

By the way, I would assume you identify as a 'conservative'. Does that mean you also think the earth was created 6.000 years ago by an imaginary sky-daddy? Cause that would explain a lot....

dear, the religious beliefs of some conservatives are not important important but the pure stupidity of liberalism is. Liberals treasonously spied for Stalin, pay child mothers per illigitimate birth, think you expand an economy by taxing it, cripple millions with personal bailouts with no thought of moral hazard, just subversively buying a voting constituency, and beloeve in trickle down welfare rather than trickle down supply side economics.

 

[joewp]

Um, I said the big NY banks dictate the money supply. You objected and said the Fed does.
I'm merely demonstrating how the big NY banks mostly own and run the Fed.Please try to keep up, thanks.

dear, please remember you are a liberal and so will be slow, very very slow. If you have evidence that the NY Banks dictate the money supply rather than Bernanke and board I will pay you $10,000. Bet or run away with your liberal tail between your legs.

Sorry, I don't bet with strangers unless I know they have the money to pay up.
Especially when I know they'd lose the bet, to wit:
Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System - Fedpoints - Federal Reserve Bank of New York

The members of the Board of Governors have a majority (7 out of 12) of the votes on the FOMC, the arm of the Fed that determines the nation's monetary policy. The five other votes belong to the president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York—it is the New York Fed that conducts the open market operations to implement the FOMC's monetary policy—and four other Reserve Bank presidents who serve one-year terms as voting members of the FOMC on a rotating basis. The chairman of the Board of Governors serves as chairman of the FOMC.

But you'll stammer and steam and say "But the President nominates and the Senate confirms all those BoG guys!"

FRB: Board Members
Read their bios. Ben was in and out of the NYFed several times. Three others worked at the NY Fed in their careers.

The government/private industry revolving door is alive and well-oiled at the Fed.

And since, as quoted above, the NY Fed conducts the FOMC policy decisions, you can be damn sure they're not going to be "told" to do anything they don't want to do.

By the way, I would assume you identify as a 'conservative'. Does that mean you also think the earth was created 6.000 years ago by an imaginary sky-daddy? Cause that would explain a lot....

dear, the religious beliefs of some conservatives are not important important but the pure stupidity of liberalism is. Liberals treasonously spied for Stalin, pay child mothers per illigitimate birth, think you expand an economy by taxing it, cripple millions with personal bailouts with no thought of moral hazard, just subversively buying a voting constituency, and beloeve in trickle down welfare rather than trickle down supply side economics.

Rather than start another thread about conservatives religious beliefs, I'll let that one lie.

You want to talk about no moral hazard? How about a business that no matter how badly you screw up, you get bailed out by the taxpayers, and get to keep your job to boot? You think the CEOs of the big NY banks worry themselves to sleep at night about what their decisions are going to mean for the business or their personal situation?

You conservatives scream and wail about welfare queens (which don't actually exist any more), but the bankers are the biggest hogs at the government teat. They've actually convinced the government and the people to give them the power to create the money and the subsequent huge profits from it.... but they're doing it in your best interests. They've actually managed to convince the vast majority of the country that constant growth in a finite environment is not only possible, but desirable.

And let's not start in with 'supply-side'. There's a good reason the developer of that 'economic theory' is Laffer, cause it's a joke.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

If you have evidence that the NY Banks dictate the money supply rather than Bernanke and board I will pay you $10,000. Bet or run away with your liberal tail between your legs.[/quote]

to wit:

for second time: show us evidence the NY Banks determine money supply, not Bernanke or admit you made yet another huge mistake thanks to your low IQ.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

You want to talk about no moral hazard? How about a business that no matter how badly you screw up, you get bailed out by the taxpayers,

too stupid by 1000% a few banks got bailed out and paid the money back .
1000's went bankrupt too. But, millions get personal bailiouts , more all the time, and they never pay it back. Thats moral hazard times 10000000%. Got it now???

See why we are 100% positive a liberal will be slow????.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

They've actually convinced the government and the people to give them the power to create the money and the subsequent huge profits from it.

too stupid!!! What huge profits?? You were just talking about how they needed to be bailed out and the 1000's of bankruptcies in the industry?

Also the world is competitive; if one industry is not competitive and so earns huge profits others then enter the industry until capitalist competition forces profits to $0.

Welcome to Econ 101 class one, day one!!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Um, I said the big NY banks dictate the money supply. You objected and said the Fed does.
I'm merely demonstrating how the big NY banks mostly own and run the Fed.Please try to keep up, thanks.

dear, please remember you are a liberal and so will be slow, very very slow. If you have evidence that the NY Banks dictate the money supply rather than Bernanke and board I will pay you $10,000. Bet or run away with your liberal tail between your legs.

Sorry, I don't bet with strangers unless I know they have the money to pay up.
Especially when I know they'd lose the bet, to wit:
Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System - Fedpoints - Federal Reserve Bank of New York


But you'll stammer and steam and say "But the President nominates and the Senate confirms all those BoG guys!"

FRB: Board Members
Read their bios. Ben was in and out of the NYFed several times. Three others worked at the NY Fed in their careers.

The government/private industry revolving door is alive and well-oiled at the Fed.

And since, as quoted above, the NY Fed conducts the FOMC policy decisions, you can be damn sure they're not going to be "told" to do anything they don't want to do.

By the way, I would assume you identify as a 'conservative'. Does that mean you also think the earth was created 6.000 years ago by an imaginary sky-daddy? Cause that would explain a lot....

dear, the religious beliefs of some conservatives are not important important but the pure stupidity of liberalism is. Liberals treasonously spied for Stalin, pay child mothers per illigitimate birth, think you expand an economy by taxing it, cripple millions with personal bailouts with no thought of moral hazard, just subversively buying a voting constituency, and beloeve in trickle down welfare rather than trickle down supply side economics.

Rather than start another thread about conservatives religious beliefs, I'll let that one lie.

You want to talk about no moral hazard? How about a business that no matter how badly you screw up, you get bailed out by the taxpayers, and get to keep your job to boot? You think the CEOs of the big NY banks worry themselves to sleep at night about what their decisions are going to mean for the business or their personal situation?

You conservatives scream and wail about welfare queens (which don't actually exist any more), but the bankers are the biggest hogs at the government teat. They've actually convinced the government and the people to give them the power to create the money and the subsequent huge profits from it.... but they're doing it in your best interests. They've actually managed to convince the vast majority of the country that constant growth in a finite environment is not only possible, but desirable.

And let's not start in with 'supply-side'. There's a good reason the developer of that 'economic theory' is Laffer, cause it's a joke.

How about a business that no matter how badly you screw up, you get bailed out by the taxpayers, and get to keep your job to boot?

You mean like B of A, Citigroup, Merrill, Lehman, Bear Stearns, Wachovia, Washington Mutual and Indy Mac? LOL!

You sure have the liberal talking points down. Facts, not so much.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

They've actually convinced the government and the people to give them the power to create the money and the subsequent huge profits from it....

Loaning out a portion of deposits?

The horror, the horror!

 

[joewp]

If you have evidence that the NY Banks dictate the money supply rather than Bernanke and board I will pay you $10,000. Bet or run away with your liberal tail between your legs.

to wit:

for second time: show us evidence the NY Banks determine money supply, not Bernanke or admit you made yet another huge mistake thanks to your low IQ.[/QUOTE]

Um, what you cut was evidence. Just the mere fact that the current president of th FRBNY is always on the FOMC and that the FRBNY implements the open market operations (so the big NY banks can bid the interest rate up or down in a closed auction) should tip you off a little.

You don't see a major influence in the money supply there?

 

[joewp]

You want to talk about no moral hazard? How about a business that no matter how badly you screw up, you get bailed out by the taxpayers,

too stupid by 1000% a few banks got bailed out and paid the money back .
1000's went bankrupt too. But, millions get personal bailiouts , more all the time, and they never pay it back. Thats moral hazard times 10000000%. Got it now???

See why we are 100% positive a liberal will be slow????.

Yeah, a few banks got bailed out... the 'too big to fail' ones. Which is my point. The big NY banks got bailed out, and the smaller banks went under and got eaten by larger banks. I think you're the slow one. From your own mouth you agreed with me that the big NY banks get bailed out and the other ones fold.

I have to wonder why you get so upset at people who are down on their luck, disabled, old, single parents, and otherwise unable to support themselves getting a measly thousand or two a month when the bankers rip you off blind every day.

But YOU, the so-called conservative who's not supposed to trust the government, seemingly embraces a government sponsored cartel of banks running the money supply on thin air and for their own profit, with no effing chance in hell that we'll ever have a balanced budget or pay off the national debt.

But you play your stupid game calling everybody who disagrees with you a 'liberal'. I hear the same crap all the time on the radio. It's actually kind of boring. Like you can't come up with something better than 'slow liberal'?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

]

Yeah, a few banks got bailed out... the 'too big to fail' ones. Which is my point. The big NY banks got bailed out,

too stupid liberal liar!!

Some banks got bailout out ( even Krugman supported it) they paid the money back and we avoided a depression, but many big NY banks went bankrupt: WaMu
Merryl, Lehman, Bear, etc etc!! And now we have Dodd Frank so they won't be bailed out again if ever they are that stupid again which is highly unlilkely.

Also, million of individuals get bailed, more every day, out and never pay the money back. Libturds don't object to that!! Libturds love that. Fanny Freddie got $200 billion and never paid the money back and never will! Libturds love that .

See why we say , slow, so very very slow!!!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I have to wonder why you get so upset at people who are down on their luck, disabled, old, single parents, and otherwise unable to support themselves getting a measly thousand or two a month when the bankers rip you off blind every day.

stupid liberal liar!! what rip off??? You have not mentioned this before let alone provided evidence??? Do you want the people to pay back their bailouts like banks did????? Do you want evey American in the end to suffer the moral hazard of liberal welfare bailouts???? For example:

1960 455,00 workers got SS disbility
2010 8.2 million
2011 8.6 million
2012 8.7 million

And this despite the huge rise in public health and work place safety!!

Helping people down on their luck is one thing but crippling them with welfare to create a voting constituency is a Nazi-like tactic.

Do you have the IQ and character to grasp the concept or are you too busy being a morally superior bigot to think??

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

a government sponsored cartel of banks running the money supply on thin air and for their own profit,

too perfectly stupid!!! money supply is determined by Fed not banks!! Why not take Econ 101 before you vomit your pure ignorance??? Is that in Mankiw's Econ 101?? Samuelson's or any Econ 101, or just in your sad sad brainwashed little head???

See why we are positve a liberal will be slow, so very very slow!!