Battle Over Remedial Classes for English and Math

[Mad Scientist]

College Trustee Steven Ngo want's to change the college remedial class "consequence" from 2.5 years to 1.5 years. I hadn't heard it described that way before, "consequence".

Anyway the heart of the matter is about whether students should be given more or less time to learn, or remediate, their Math and English skills to a college level.

The Bay Citizen - At City College, a Battle Over Remedial Classes for English and Math - NYTimes.com

When Steve Ngo, a 33-year-old college trustee, learned that many minority students, among others, faced two-and-a-half years, or five semesters, of remedial English classes and a year and a half of math at the two-year college, he was shocked into action. His campaign for a one-year sequence of remedial courses ignited a campus furor, with students and a few trustees on one side and faculty members, irate about the intrusion of trustees on academic turf, on the other.

2.5 years of remedial anything means one of two things:
1.Your H.S. failed you.
2.You're not cut out for college.

Some freshmen do not know that “one-half and .5 represent the same number,” said Dennis Piontkowski, chairman of the mathematics department. “We don’t want to keep students in math classes forever, but you can’t just snap your fingers and bring them up to college level.”
“If you put people in remediation and they don’t succeed, what’s the point?” said Steven Spurling, the assistant director of institutional research, who crunched the numbers. “If you elongate the educational process, people will eventually drop out.”
Students who take Chabot’s more intensive one-semester English remediation course pass college-level English at twice the rate of those who took the college’s two-semester course.

Both of my sons went from Americans schools straight to Japanese schools and did just fine. The got the Japanese language emmersion and, this is the key, were not allowed to be tested in English, only Japanese.

Kids are smarter and more capable than we give them credit for. They can handle the stress and work load just fine. Let's stop babying them.

 

[syrenn]

If you need remedial ANYTHING you shouldn't be in college!

 

[Foxfyre]

I am not opposed to remedial classes for college students who need additional background to qualify for upper level classes in their discipline. Son Foxfyre took awhile but finally settled on engineering as his chosen discipline, but didn't take some of the requisite advanced math in highschool. So it required some remedial courses to get him up to speed in the math. (He took Calculus 1 three times before finally passing it.) But then he excelled in his math courses and is now a successful and prosperous engineer.

So I'm all for students having the option to choose whatever coursework they need to reach for their dream and as long as they're willing to pay for it, and they aren't depriving any other student of a spot in class, I don't have a problem with them taking as long as it takes.

I also don't have a problem with putting a time limit on subsidized student aid, etc. when a student just isn't cutting it or when the classroom space is needed for more motivated or capable students.

 

[Mad Scientist]

I am not opposed to remedial classes for college students who need additional background to qualify for upper level classes in their discipline. Son Foxfyre took awhile but finally settled on engineering as his chosen discipline, but didn't take some of the requisite advanced math in highschool. So it required some remedial courses to get him up to speed in the math. (He took Calculus 1 three times before finally passing it.) But then he excelled in his math courses and is now a successful and prosperous engineer.

Not passing Calculus I isn't even close to not passing basic Math. I took Calculus I and II by the way.

The point was that some students will never "get it" so why waste time and funds in that effort?

 

[Foxfyre]

I am not opposed to remedial classes for college students who need additional background to qualify for upper level classes in their discipline. Son Foxfyre took awhile but finally settled on engineering as his chosen discipline, but didn't take some of the requisite advanced math in highschool. So it required some remedial courses to get him up to speed in the math. (He took Calculus 1 three times before finally passing it.) But then he excelled in his math courses and is now a successful and prosperous engineer.

Not passing Calculus I isn't even close to not passing basic Math. I took Calculus I and II by the way.

The point was that some students will never "get it" so why waste time and funds in that effort?

Because all students don't have equal aptitude. For one of my kids, math was effortless, unbelievably easy. For the other not so much. But the kid that had to work harder at it did eventually get it. And once he learned it, he really had it.

Plus we have public schools now in which social promotions are the norm. No matter how much they goof off or blow off the subject matter, kids are passed whether or not they know anything. So at some point the light bulb comes on and the kid decides to clean up his act and make something of himself. It will be difficult because he has none of the requisite background for the coursework. And he struggles mightily getting that basic math so he can move on. But as long as he is willing to struggle to get it, are you going to tell him no? You don't have to pay the price for him or disadvantage another student for him. But as long as he is willing to try, I say let him.

We have generations of welfare kids who have been told all their lives that there isn't any use trying because they'll just be knocked down.

I'm not willing to say that to any kid.

If he gives up that is one thing. But I'm not going to give up on him.

 

[IanC]

Seems like the same problem, over and over again. Lower the standards or lose the minorities.

All you have to do is pass the entrance exam. If you can't then you should find a different life path.

 

[Oddball]

So...Is this supposed to be more evidence of the "success" of gubmint schools?

 

[Foxfyre]

Seems like the same problem, over and over again. Lower the standards or lose the minorities.

All you have to do is pass the entrance exam. If you can't then you should find a different life path.

I don't disagree with this. But I am unwilling to say that those who can't pass it on the first or second attempt should be denied a chance to keep trying.'

I am 100% opposed to social promotions or letting kids slip through the system believing they're doing enough when they aren't. I am 100% FOR demanding results and excellence to earn grades and for requiring students to demonstrate that they did do the work and they legitimately earned their grades.

But for the goof offs who choose to turn it around and go for the brass ring after all, I'm not about to say they shouldn't be given a chance to do that.

Besides, there's a whole cottage industry there for folks who love to teach and who would be willing to help reformed screw ups turn their lives around.

 

[uscitizen]

Aww that remedial math is making it so hard on the college athletes.

 

[IanC]

Seems like the same problem, over and over again. Lower the standards or lose the minorities.

All you have to do is pass the entrance exam. If you can't then you should find a different life path.

I don't disagree with this. But I am unwilling to say that those who can't pass it on the first or second attempt should be denied a chance to keep trying.'

I am 100% opposed to social promotions or letting kids slip through the system believing they're doing enough when they aren't. I am 100% FOR demanding results and excellence to earn grades and for requiring students to demonstrate that they did do the work and they legitimately earned their grades.

But for the goof offs who choose to turn it around and go for the brass ring after all, I'm not about to say they shouldn't be given a chance to do that.

Besides, there's a whole cottage industry there for folks who love to teach and who would be willing to help reformed screw ups turn their lives around.

Is there not a high school exit exam in Cali? If you can't pass it even though you have actually been trying in school then you should realistically look at your chances of completing college. That's why there are so many teachers that pass their courses but fail on state competency exams.

Goofoffs should be able to seek out a second chance but not at the cost of lowering standards.

 

[Foxfyre]

Seems like the same problem, over and over again. Lower the standards or lose the minorities.

All you have to do is pass the entrance exam. If you can't then you should find a different life path.

I don't disagree with this. But I am unwilling to say that those who can't pass it on the first or second attempt should be denied a chance to keep trying.'

I am 100% opposed to social promotions or letting kids slip through the system believing they're doing enough when they aren't. I am 100% FOR demanding results and excellence to earn grades and for requiring students to demonstrate that they did do the work and they legitimately earned their grades.

But for the goof offs who choose to turn it around and go for the brass ring after all, I'm not about to say they shouldn't be given a chance to do that.

Besides, there's a whole cottage industry there for folks who love to teach and who would be willing to help reformed screw ups turn their lives around.

Is there not a high school exit exam in Cali? If you can't pass it even though you have actually been trying in school then you should realistically look at your chances of completing college. That's why there are so many teachers that pass their courses but fail on state competency exams.

Goofoffs should be able to seek out a second chance but not at the cost of lowering standards.

I agree. In most public education systems these days, the standards are ridiculously low already. I know because I have seen some of the applications filled out by the products of those systems and have had the unhappy task of trying to educate them sufficiently to competently do a fairly uncomplicated job.

We should be expecting the most our kids are capable of and should be urging them to strive for excellence, not just getting by.

Every kid isn't cut out for college and many people have achieved amazing success with no more than a highschool diploma.

But for those who want to go to college and who aren't quite making the grade to get there, I am all for giving them the opportunity to qualify. Absolutely do not lower the standards. Just don't go telling any kid he or she is incapable of meeting those standards and shouldn't even try.

 

[daveman]

Not everyone is college material. No shame in it, but we shouldn't keep pretending that everyone has to have a degree.

 

[Foxfyre]

Not everyone is college material. No shame in it, but we shouldn't keep pretending that everyone has to have a degree.

I agree 100%. But for those who really want the degree, even those who decide they want it after they have already screwed up, so long as they are willing to invest the time, resources, and efforts to try and don't expect others to do it for them, I say power to them. I don't want a policy that would keep them from going for it.

But again, do NOT reduce standards to accommodate them. Make them compete on equal footing with those who have already achieved.

 

[daveman]

Not everyone is college material. No shame in it, but we shouldn't keep pretending that everyone has to have a degree.

I agree 100%. But for those who really want the degree, even those who decide they want it after they have already screwed up, so long as they are willing to invest the time, resources, and efforts to try and don't expect others to do it for them, I say power to them. I don't want a policy that would keep them from going for it.

But again, do NOT reduce standards to accommodate them. Make them compete on equal footing with those who have already achieved.

I agree completely. Meet the standard, or you're out. Don't lower the standard.

 

[IanC]

Not everyone is college material. No shame in it, but we shouldn't keep pretending that everyone has to have a degree.

I concur. I graduated in the 70's, when passing an acedemic track in high school was the equivilent of a college degree now. Should we really be keeping kids in school four years longer for so little benefit and at such a high cost?

 

[daveman]

Not everyone is college material. No shame in it, but we shouldn't keep pretending that everyone has to have a degree.

I concur. I graduated in the 70's, when passing an acedemic track in high school was the equivilent of a college degree now. Should we really be keeping kids in school four years longer for so little benefit and at such a high cost?

Nope.

 

[bruzz]

Seems like the same problem, over and over again. Lower the standards or lose the minorities.

All you have to do is pass the entrance exam. If you can't then you should find a different life path.

I don't disagree with this. But I am unwilling to say that those who can't pass it on the first or second attempt should be denied a chance to keep trying.'

I am 100% opposed to social promotions or letting kids slip through the system believing they're doing enough when they aren't. I am 100% FOR demanding results and excellence to earn grades and for requiring students to demonstrate that they did do the work and they legitimately earned their grades.

But for the goof offs who choose to turn it around and go for the brass ring after all, I'm not about to say they shouldn't be given a chance to do that.

Besides, there's a whole cottage industry there for folks who love to teach and who would be willing to help reformed screw ups turn their lives around.

Is there not a high school exit exam in Cali? If you can't pass it even though you have actually been trying in school then you should realistically look at your chances of completing college. That's why there are so many teachers that pass their courses but fail on state competency exams.

Goofoffs should be able to seek out a second chance but not at the cost of lowering standards.

Yes, they should be allowed a second chance... in a community college or trade school. Also, most foreign exchange students say that American schools are easier than their schools at home. We need to raise our standards for students and stick to them.

 

[Foxfyre]

On the lighter side, I received this in my e-mail this afternoon and, while I have no clue whether it's the real deal, from what I've seen on application forms, it sure could be.

The following are excerpted from Highschool proficiency exams.
These are genuine answers (from 16 year olds)............and they WILL breed.

Q. Name the four seasons
A. Salt, pepper, mustard and vinegar

Q. Explain one of the processes by which water can be made safe to drink
A. Flirtation makes water safe to drink because it removes large pollutants like grit, sand, dead sheep and canoeists

Q. How is dew formed
A. The sun shines down on the leaves and makes them perspire

Q. What causes the tides in the oceans
A. The tides are a fight between the earth and the moon. All water tends to flow towards the moon, because there is no water on the moon, and nature abhors a vacuum. I forget where the sun joins the fight

Q. What guarantees may a mortgage company insist on
A. If you are buying a house they will insist that you are well endowed

Q. In a democratic society, how important are elections
A. Very important. Sex can only happen when a male gets an election

Q. What are steroids
A. Things for keeping carpets still on the stairs (Shoot yourself now , there is little hope)

Q.. What happens to your body as you age
A. When you get old, so do your bowels and you get intercontinental

Q. What happens to a boy when he reaches puberty
A. He says goodbye to his boyhood and looks forward to his adultery (So true)

Q. Name a major disease associated with cigarettes
A. Premature death

Q. What is artificial insemination
A. When the farmer does it to the bull instead of the cow

Q. How can you delay milk turning sour
A. Keep it in the cow (Simple, but brilliant)

Q. How are the main 20 parts of the body categorised (e.g. The abdomen)
A. The body is consisted into 3 parts - the brainium, the borax and the abdominal cavity. The brainium contains the brain, the borax contains the heart and lungs and the abdominal cavity contains the five bowels: A, E, I,O,U.. (wtf!)

Q. What is the fibula?
A. A small lie

Q. What does 'varicose' mean?
A. Nearby

Q. What is the most common form of birth control
A. Most people prevent contraception by wearing a condominium (That would work)

Q. Give the meaning of the term 'Caesarean section'
A. The caesarean section is a district in Rome

Q. What is a seizure?
A. A Roman Emperor. (Julius Seizure, I came, I saw, I had a fit)

Q. What is a terminal illness
A. When you are sick at the airport. (Irrefutable)

Q. Give an example of a fungus. What is a characteristic feature?
A. Mushrooms. They always grow in damp places and they look like umbrellas

Q.. Use the word 'judicious' in a sentence to show you understand its meaning
A. Hands that judicious can be soft as your face. (OMG)

Q. What does the word 'benign' mean?
A. Benign is what you will be after you be eight (brilliant)

Q. What is a turbine?
A. Something an Arab or Shreik wears on his head

 

[bruzz]

Damn Foxfyre, that had me cracking up. Thanks for sharing.

 

[ConHog]

On the lighter side, I received this in my e-mail this afternoon and, while I have no clue whether it's the real deal, from what I've seen on application forms, it sure could be.

The following are excerpted from Highschool proficiency exams.
These are genuine answers (from 16 year olds)............and they WILL breed.

Q. Name the four seasons
A. Salt, pepper, mustard and vinegar

Q. Explain one of the processes by which water can be made safe to drink
A. Flirtation makes water safe to drink because it removes large pollutants like grit, sand, dead sheep and canoeists

Q. How is dew formed
A. The sun shines down on the leaves and makes them perspire

Q. What causes the tides in the oceans
A. The tides are a fight between the earth and the moon. All water tends to flow towards the moon, because there is no water on the moon, and nature abhors a vacuum. I forget where the sun joins the fight

Q. What guarantees may a mortgage company insist on
A. If you are buying a house they will insist that you are well endowed

Q. In a democratic society, how important are elections
A. Very important. Sex can only happen when a male gets an election

Q. What are steroids
A. Things for keeping carpets still on the stairs (Shoot yourself now , there is little hope)

Q.. What happens to your body as you age
A. When you get old, so do your bowels and you get intercontinental

Q. What happens to a boy when he reaches puberty
A. He says goodbye to his boyhood and looks forward to his adultery (So true)

Q. Name a major disease associated with cigarettes
A. Premature death

Q. What is artificial insemination
A. When the farmer does it to the bull instead of the cow

Q. How can you delay milk turning sour
A. Keep it in the cow (Simple, but brilliant)

Q. How are the main 20 parts of the body categorised (e.g. The abdomen)
A. The body is consisted into 3 parts - the brainium, the borax and the abdominal cavity. The brainium contains the brain, the borax contains the heart and lungs and the abdominal cavity contains the five bowels: A, E, I,O,U.. (wtf!)

Q. What is the fibula?
A. A small lie

Q. What does 'varicose' mean?
A. Nearby

Q. What is the most common form of birth control
A. Most people prevent contraception by wearing a condominium (That would work)

Q. Give the meaning of the term 'Caesarean section'
A. The caesarean section is a district in Rome

Q. What is a seizure?
A. A Roman Emperor. (Julius Seizure, I came, I saw, I had a fit)

Q. What is a terminal illness
A. When you are sick at the airport. (Irrefutable)

Q. Give an example of a fungus. What is a characteristic feature?
A. Mushrooms. They always grow in damp places and they look like umbrellas

Q.. Use the word 'judicious' in a sentence to show you understand its meaning
A. Hands that judicious can be soft as your face. (OMG)

Q. What does the word 'benign' mean?
A. Benign is what you will be after you be eight (brilliant)

Q. What is a turbine?
A. Something an Arab or Shreik wears on his head

That was funny, but sad.


Really, we need to go to a two track educaton system, and you don't choose which you are going to. It's decided by your academic process. Starting in the 9th grade you are either on the college bound track or you are on the "worker bee" track. Once there no moving up or down. So you better work hard before 9th grade. And no college admission if you don't graduate the college track. Mean? Maybe , but we have a serious education problem in this country and it needs some tough love.