An Idea for Improved Public Education

[Ariux]

It's fiction that teachers make a big difference in a child's education. Maybe a school full of Afro teachers would cause real damage. But, other than extreme cases, teachers aren't the big problem. Class size and amount of funding also aren't big factors.

 

[Unkotare]

How the fuck would you know, douchebag? You've never been any closer to a school than you have to a bar of soap.

 

[squeeze berry]

It's fiction that teachers make a big difference in a child's education. Maybe a school full of Afro teachers would cause real damage. But, other than extreme cases, teachers aren't the big problem. Class size and amount of funding also aren't big factors.

there is some truth in this.......

I don't believe that there is a thing in the world that anyone can do to keep a child from learning, especially a bright student. That cream will rise to the top one way or another.

The opposite is true, in my opinion, for the poor learners. Some just don't have the smarts to succeed at any level beyond 5th grade. Some do not even try to do the work and are disruptive and take up space and tax dollars. Yet we insist on keeping them in an academic environment until age 18?

But it's more than just smarts. I know a number of people who , although they are not academicians, are very bright, just not suited to academics. Some are good cabinet makers, carpenters and so on. Their talents lie elswhere.

There problem with education in this country is that everyone is expected to be on the college track. Why does an auto mechanic or plumber need to take two years of algebra? Why does someone like that need to be in school until age 18?
Why do we have so few vocational technical schools? Shouldn't they be learning how do balance ledgers and do measurements or read blueprints instead?

1. focus on the basics the frst 3 years of school. Reading writing and math with very little content.

2. introduce content at about the 4th grade

3. By about the 6th grade we should know who is suited for university. There should be strict requirements to go on the college prep class.

4. those that don't make the college prep class can either go to vocational school or general education. In both these cases hopefully all but a smalll minority will be able to read and do math at least functionally. General ed has classes in functional math and business classes.

5. Those that wash out at college prep can still go the general ed or vocational school.



what are the problems with this:

1. Parents: most of them will fight tooth and nail to get them into the college prep track even if it's clear they are not suited.

2. government: will piss and moan because there are not enough of this demographic or that demograhic in the college prep course, so standards will have to be lowered.


I'm also quite certian that "bad teachers" are not the problem they are made out to be.

Most of the teachers not suited to the profession will voluntarily resign or be placed on probation and be weeded out within three years. So, there are very few of them. Most teachers are "average". Common sense should tell you that.

What is a good teacher anyway? Who decides this?

Test scores? Like Blimpo said, what if you have a room full of students on IEPs that are below avearge?

Are you a good teacher if your AP students pass the standardized test?

 

[Jackson]

In grades K, 1 and 2 only Reading, Language Arts and Math should be taught. Forget about Sociology, Science, etc. Keep to these core subjects and the children will master reading, writing and math before going on to the core subjects. Never, ever pass a student on without mastery of the core subjects.

The year plan with summer school in place for "at risk students" to catch up and possibly remediate before holding back to the same grade. Standardized tests will determine if the progress necessary has been made. Teachers should not administer tests. Proctors should come into the classrooms and properly give and oversee testing.

Merit pay should be based on progress made with the students, not if they made grade level. That would benefit teachers who had students who were drastically lower in grade level, but increased 15 months in 8 months of instruction although they were still below grade level.

Teaching test taking strategies for students is a must. Assignments should be given in the format they see in standardized tests so they are used to filling in bubbles, showing alignment of questions, watching for "stop signs" at the bottom of pages, following directions, etc.

Parental permission for repeating a grade is never supposed to be part of the equation. The school has the only determination.

Teachers should have a background in education. Discipline in the classroom is a must. Without a proper functioning classroom, no learning can take place.

 

[old navy]

That sort of sounds like a degree in education, or at the very least a lot like the process and requirements for teacher certification as they already exist.

yep, the certification process. Why require a degree in education?

Why do doctors need a medical degree?

Some do not. Some of the best I've ever worked with were osteopaths.

 

[old navy]

Why require a degree in education? I would bet that most people with a degree in different areas are proficient enough in math to teach it to 3rd graders. With a staff of basically educated teachers with previous life experiences, lots of give a damn, and support from administrators and mentors, the output from our system of education would dramatically improve.

You can't see even a few of the things wrong with that statement?

I'm just trying to participate in a thread about improving education. Instead of playing 20-questions, tell me what is wrong with my ideas and let us discuss. Most of the better teachers I work with came from other fields with degrees in something other than education. One of our math teachers was an actual rocket scientist for the Navy Department.

I've never been one to blame teachers for our education problems. If the education training programs are producing what we need, then we should look at what the real problem is. I'm a rightie but do not blame the union, at least in my district. They have absolutely no influence on curriculum. They are basically useless and the best reason anyone can give for joining is legal representation when Little Johnny makes an accusation.

 

[Jackson]

It's fiction that teachers make a big difference in a child's education. Maybe a school full of Afro teachers would cause real damage. But, other than extreme cases, teachers aren't the big problem. Class size and amount of funding also aren't big factors.

there is some truth in this.......

I don't believe that there is a thing in the world that anyone can do to keep a child from learning, especially a bright student. That cream will rise to the top one way or another.

The opposite is true, in my opinion, for the poor learners. Some just don't have the smarts to succeed at any level beyond 5th grade. Some do not even try to do the work and are disruptive and take up space and tax dollars. Yet we insist on keeping them in an academic environment until age 18?

But it's more than just smarts. I know a number of people who , although they are not academicians, are very bright, just not suited to academics. Some are good cabinet makers, carpenters and so on. Their talents lie elswhere

There problem with education in this country is that everyone is expected to be on the college track. Why does an auto mechanic or plumber need to take two years of algebra? Why does someone like that need to be in school until age 18?
Why do we have so few vocational technical schools? Shouldn't they be learning how do balance ledgers and do measurements or read blueprints instead? Yes!
1. focus on the basics the frst 3 years of school. Reading writing and math with very little content.

2. introduce content at about the 4th grade

3. By about the 6th grade we should know who is suited for university. There should be strict requirements to go on the college prep class.

4. those that don't make the college prep class can either go to vocational school or general education. In both these cases hopefully all but a smalll minority will be able to read and do math at least functionally. General ed has classes in functional math and business classes.

5. Those that wash out at college prep can still go the general ed or vocational school.



what are the problems with this:

1. Parents: most of them will fight tooth and nail to get them into the college prep track even if it's clear they are not suited.

2. government: will piss and moan because there are not enough of this demographic or that demograhic in the college prep course, so standards will have to be lowered.


I'm also quite certian that "bad teachers" are not the problem they are made out to be.

Most of the teachers not suited to the profession will voluntarily resign or be placed on probation and be weeded out within three years. So, there are very few of them. Most teachers are "average". Common sense should tell you that.

What is a good teacher anyway?
] Who decides this?

Test scores? Like Blimpo said, what if you have a room full of students on IEPs that are below avearge?

Are you a good teacher if your AP students pass the standardized test?

But it's more than just smarts. I know a number of people who , although they are not academicians, are very bright, just not suited to academics. Some are good cabinet makers, carpenters and so on. Their talents lie elswhere.But these student can do both. They can have vocational training half the day and work on math and reading the other half.

There problem with education in this country is that everyone is expected to be on the college track. Why does an auto mechanic or plumber need to take two years of algebra? Why does someone like that need to be in school until age 18?
Why do we have so few vocational technical schools? Shouldn't they be learning how do balance ledgers and do measurements or read blueprints instead? Yes!
1. focus on the basics the frst 3 years of school. Reading writing and math with very little content. I agree!

2. introduce content at about the 4th grade

3. By about the 6th grade we should know who is suited for university. There should be strict requirements to go on the college prep class.

4. those that don't make the college prep class can either go to vocational school or general education. In both these cases hopefully all but a smalll minority will be able to read and do math at least functionally. General ed has classes in functional math and business classes.

5. Those that wash out at college prep can still go the general ed or vocational school.



what are the problems with this:

1. Parents: most of them will fight tooth and nail to get them into the college prep track even if it's clear they are not suited. Let them have their way until it finally dawns on them and the student that general ed. is the way to go. schools give aptitutde tests which would be helpful for career choices as well.

2. government: will piss and moan because there are not enough of this demographic or that demograhic in the college prep course, so standards will have to be lowered.


I'm also quite certian that "bad teachers" are not the problem they are made out to be. Teachers need ongoing training throughout their career.

Most of the teachers not suited to the profession will voluntarily resign or be placed on probation and be weeded out within three years. So, there are very few of them. Most teachers are "average". Common sense should tell you that. Not necesasarity so.

What is a good teacher anyway? One who makes progress with his/her children and they reach their potential Who decides this? The parents, the administrator, the standardized tests.

Test scores? Like Blimpo said, what if you have a room full of students on IEPs that are below avearge? Look at the progress that was made and if the IEP was fulfilled.

 

[Unkotare]

Why does an auto mechanic or plumber need to take two years of algebra? Why does someone like that need to be in school until age 18?

You really think an auto mechanic or a plumber doesn't need to be able to think in mathematical terms? Are you actively encouraging more innumeracy in this country? You think that would be a positive? And you want more people even less educated than they already are? What are you, an enemy of the Republic?

And do you really expect a kid in the 6th grade to know what he's going to do with the rest of his life? You want to narrow his options that early on? Way to get the most out of our human resources. It doesn't seem to me that there is any lack of availability for kids who choose a vocational track. It does seem to me that you want to view it as a dumping ground for any average to below average kids in a standard high school track. Giving up is not a solution - not an American one at least. Your approach would just push all the problems we have now onto the vocational schools, which would quickly be over capacity and overrun with kids who want to be there as much as they didn't want to be in a regular academic track. In addition, pumping out hordes of auto mechanics and plumbers would only serve to lower the overall quality and compensation of those trades (and others). Do you think the future of the American economy lies in becoming a nation predominantly of tradesmen? Will we compete in the global economy that way? Do you want to take every kid who is a pain in the ass and send him to school to learn how to make buggy whips? Will that contribute to our global economic dominance?

Looking for easy answers is seldom fruitful.

 

[Unkotare]

yep, the certification process. Why require a degree in education?

Why do doctors need a medical degree?

Some do not. Some of the best I've ever worked with were osteopaths.

Ok, the next time you need surgery you go look for someone who doesn't have a medical degree. Good luck with that.

Would you live in a house with no foundation?

 

[Unkotare]

teachers should not administer tests. Proctors should come into the classrooms and properly give and oversee testing.

= $$$

 

[Unkotare]

Why require a degree in education? I would bet that most people with a degree in different areas are proficient enough in math to teach it to 3rd graders.

No, most of those people are more proficient in math than a 3rd grader, but that doesn't mean that they know how - or have the ability to - teach. Can someone from another profession transition to teaching? Of course. Do some people with no formal education in teaching have an innate ability at it? For sure. But to assume that specifically NOT having a background in education will somehow result in dramatically better outcomes is not reasonable. Just because so many people with degrees in education lack the actual ability to teach doesn't mean that therefore people without such backgrounds - for that reason - will. Someone who studied the piano for years and years might just not have the knack for it, or might have a tin ear. Someone who worked as a fisherman for years and years might find he has an inherent knack for playing the piano and pick it up right away. But which is more likely?

 

[squeeze berry]

Why does an auto mechanic or plumber need to take two years of algebra? Why does someone like that need to be in school until age 18?

You really think an auto mechanic or a plumber doesn't need to be able to think in mathematical terms? Are you actively encouraging more innumeracy in this country? You think that would be a positive? And you want more people even less educated than they already are? What are you, an enemy of the Republic?

And do you really expect a kid in the 6th grade to know what he's going to do with the rest of his life? You want to narrow his options that early on? Way to get the most out of our human resources. It doesn't seem to me that there is any lack of availability for kids who choose a vocational track. It does seem to me that you want to view it as a dumping ground for any average to below average kids in a standard high school track. Giving up is not a solution - not an American one at least. Your approach would just push all the problems we have now onto the vocational schools, which would quickly be over capacity and overrun with kids who want to be there as much as they didn't want to be in a regular academic track. In addition, pumping out hordes of auto mechanics and plumbers would only serve to lower the overall quality and compensation of those trades (and others). Do you think the future of the American economy lies in becoming a nation predominantly of tradesmen? Will we compete in the global economy that way? Do you want to take every kid who is a pain in the ass and send him to school to learn how to make buggy whips? Will that contribute to our global economic dominance?

Looking for easy answers is seldom fruitful.

who said plumbers and carpenters shouln't know math?

Do you really believe they need algebra?

Most people 75-89% do not graduate from college, yey just about everyone takes college prep classes in high school.

Don't you believe that's a wasted effort for all but 25% ?

what i have laid out is the German model. they aren't doing too badly with their educational system.

 

[Unkotare]

who said plumbers and carpenters shouln't know math?

Do you really believe they need algebra?

Yes, I really do. Do you consider algebra to be some unreasonably high level of mathematics?

 

[Unkotare]

Most people 75-89% do not graduate from college, yey just about everyone takes college prep classes in high school.

Don't you believe that's a wasted effort for all but 25% ?

No, I do not. Learning to think is never wasted. A broad, deep foundation is never wasted.

 

[old navy]

Why do doctors need a medical degree?

Some do not. Some of the best I've ever worked with were osteopaths.

Ok, the next time you need surgery you go look for someone who doesn't have a medical degree. Good luck with that.

Would you live in a house with no foundation?

Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Osteopaths actually do surgical residencies, derm, family medicine, and just about every medical speciality that their counterparts with a traditional medical degree do. They are physicians in every aspect of the word and provide great patient care. They just took a different route to the profession. (I am actully recovering from my sixth knee surgery. My doc was a Georgetown Medical School grad).

That is my point with teachers. Maybe some areas would be well served with teachers that come from a different route. The OP stated his father has difficulty recruiting male teachers. I went further to state that black males are there in even lower numbers. There are numerous people in society that would be able to teach and be a role model and get good classroom results based on their past life experiences and a desire to make a difference. I am one of them. With my many years of medical and education experience plus my education, I could make 30 to 40 thousand dollars a year more here in the DC area. It's not that I wouldn't like the money, but I like working with young people better. Besides the subject content, I have come to specialize in breaking through racial and gender barriers which leads to a productive relationship which ends with an award winning letter of recomendation. Along the way, they are required to do the right thing, treat everyone with respect, and do their assignments.

When I wrote earlier of a basically educated teacher entering the field, I was speaking of whatever the district determines that basic education is. For most I suppose, it is a Bachelor's in Education. Why does it have to be education? Why not a bachelor's in numerous areas and conduct training on curriculum and classroom management? Along the way, the teacher would be required to obtain the courses needed to complete the certification. For example, Human Growth and Development should be required if it does not show up on the transcript. We also have to do child abuse and technology certifications.

 

[Unkotare]

When I wrote earlier of a basically educated teacher entering the field, I was speaking of whatever the district determines that basic education is. For most I suppose, it is a Bachelor's in Education. Why does it have to be education? Why not a bachelor's in numerous areas and conduct training on curriculum and classroom management? Along the way, the teacher would be required to obtain the courses needed to complete the certification. For example, Human Growth and Development should be required if it does not show up on the transcript. We also have to do child abuse and technology certifications.

Requirements will vary from place to place, but in many areas it doesn't matter so much what your undergrad degree was in (to an extent), but you need to become certified before you can be hired to teach (unless you have a Master's degree or higher in the relevant field).

 

[flacaltenn]

It's fiction that teachers make a big difference in a child's education. Maybe a school full of Afro teachers would cause real damage. But, other than extreme cases, teachers aren't the big problem. Class size and amount of funding also aren't big factors.

there is some truth in this.......

I don't believe that there is a thing in the world that anyone can do to keep a child from learning, especially a bright student. That cream will rise to the top one way or another.

The opposite is true, in my opinion, for the poor learners. Some just don't have the smarts to succeed at any level beyond 5th grade. Some do not even try to do the work and are disruptive and take up space and tax dollars. Yet we insist on keeping them in an academic environment until age 18?

But it's more than just smarts. I know a number of people who , although they are not academicians, are very bright, just not suited to academics. Some are good cabinet makers, carpenters and so on. Their talents lie elswhere.

There problem with education in this country is that everyone is expected to be on the college track. Why does an auto mechanic or plumber need to take two years of algebra? Why does someone like that need to be in school until age 18?
Why do we have so few vocational technical schools? Shouldn't they be learning how do balance ledgers and do measurements or read blueprints instead?

1. focus on the basics the frst 3 years of school. Reading writing and math with very little content.

2. introduce content at about the 4th grade

3. By about the 6th grade we should know who is suited for university. There should be strict requirements to go on the college prep class.

4. those that don't make the college prep class can either go to vocational school or general education. In both these cases hopefully all but a smalll minority will be able to read and do math at least functionally. General ed has classes in functional math and business classes.

5. Those that wash out at college prep can still go the general ed or vocational school.



what are the problems with this:

1. Parents: most of them will fight tooth and nail to get them into the college prep track even if it's clear they are not suited.

2. government: will piss and moan because there are not enough of this demographic or that demograhic in the college prep course, so standards will have to be lowered.


I'm also quite certian that "bad teachers" are not the problem they are made out to be.

Most of the teachers not suited to the profession will voluntarily resign or be placed on probation and be weeded out within three years. So, there are very few of them. Most teachers are "average". Common sense should tell you that.

What is a good teacher anyway? Who decides this?

Test scores? Like Blimpo said, what if you have a room full of students on IEPs that are below avearge?

Are you a good teacher if your AP students pass the standardized test?

Look -- I'm all in on Vocational as a VOLUNTARY option.. But the concept that it's TOO difficult for these guys to learn elementary physics or complete a standard H.S. curriculum is Waaaay too severe. Got news for you.. Auto mechanics need to know TONS of computing, physics, materials, and math. And in the future, a LOT of what they do is gonna get a LOT more complicated.

NEVER should we be making career path decisions in the K-8 or K-10 range..

 

[old navy]

When I wrote earlier of a basically educated teacher entering the field, I was speaking of whatever the district determines that basic education is. For most I suppose, it is a Bachelor's in Education. Why does it have to be education? Why not a bachelor's in numerous areas and conduct training on curriculum and classroom management? Along the way, the teacher would be required to obtain the courses needed to complete the certification. For example, Human Growth and Development should be required if it does not show up on the transcript. We also have to do child abuse and technology certifications.

Requirements will vary from place to place, but in many areas it doesn't matter so much what your undergrad degree was in (to an extent), but you need to become certified before you can be hired to teach (unless you have a Master's degree or higher in the relevant field).

Maybe I got too wrapped around the OP's concern of not enough men in elementary teaching and started rambling while on Percocet. One thing for sure is, my current colleagues are among the most dedicated and professional co-workers I have ever had, and that includes my 26 years in the Navy.

 

[squeeze berry]

When I wrote earlier of a basically educated teacher entering the field, I was speaking of whatever the district determines that basic education is. For most I suppose, it is a Bachelor's in Education. Why does it have to be education? Why not a bachelor's in numerous areas and conduct training on curriculum and classroom management? Along the way, the teacher would be required to obtain the courses needed to complete the certification. For example, Human Growth and Development should be required if it does not show up on the transcript. We also have to do child abuse and technology certifications.

Requirements will vary from place to place, but in many areas it doesn't matter so much what your undergrad degree was in (to an extent), but you need to become certified before you can be hired to teach (unless you have a Master's degree or higher in the relevant field).

Maybe I got too wrapped around the OP's concern of not enough men in elementary teaching and started rambling while on Percocet. One thing for sure is, my current colleagues are among the most dedicated and professional co-workers I have ever had, and that includes my 26 years in the Navy.

did you take the VCLA and VRA?

 

[old navy]

did you take the VCLA and VRA?

I'm not sure of what you are asking?