ALLIES pay the price for US' mistake

[mrbitterness]

The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, that is.

1) Indonesia sorry, not Australia, with the Bali Bombings.
2) British sites were hit alongside synagogues in Istanbul, Turkey.
3) Now it's Madrid, Spain.

The Arabs were at fault. The Al-Qaeda.

 

[nbdysfu]

Originally posted by mrbitterness
1) Australia was the first target, with the Bali Bombings.

Bali is in Indonesia. That's close to Australia but very different

They were not allied with the us at the time of the Bali bombings in which 202 people died, on going to war in Iraq. In fact they were vocal about their opposition to the us's commitment to war.

2) British sites were hit alongside synagogues in Istanbul, Turkey

The British Embassy was hit in Turkey, a country which has for some time given US jets permission to fly over its air space to maintain the Iraqi no-fly zone. Other than that, Turkey was relatively neutral or negative to the Iraq war. The bombings of the synagogues and the british embassy actually turned public opinion in turkey further against the terrorists.

It remains to be seen wether there will be any successful terrorist attacks right before elections in the UK, or other of the strongly allied countries. South Korea is currentl in turmoil, but that results from internal allegations of corruption.

But then I think you should also include the thousands of us troops who have been wounded in Iraq, the 570 that have died in Iraq, the hundreds of thousands that have served or are now serving in Iraq, when you discuss who pays the price for Iraqi freedom.


If Al Queda is reacting so heinously to our deposition of Iraq, were we really that far off the mark?

The decisive overthrow and capture of saddam hasn't born out possession of WMD, but their is certainly evidence of efforts to maintain wmd programs which would be revivable with the lifting of sanctions. Simultaneously, there is also mounting evidence that shows that saddam was involved in destroying the sanctions by using them to funnel a war chest out of the country at the same time that his people starved, which he blamed on the sanctions. From the outside, it appeared that the sanctions were responsible for starvation. Now we know the Iraqi government was engaged in a policy of sabotaging them with the goal of ending them. Without the war that would have inevitably happened. When that happened, the wmd programs would have easily resumed.

The victory in Iraq led to the final surrender by Lybia of its MASSIVE wmd programs, after the action of the UK and the US. This simultaneously led to the exposure of the A.Q. Kahn nuclear proliferation ring, which went from Europe to Malaysia. Currently Iranians are rioting against their fictitious democracy. Kurds are taking a stand in Syria. Because the US is in Iraq and Afghanistan and has supported the overthrow of its dictatorship, it is now in a position to substantively aid revolt in Syria and Iran, should it come to that.

So yes I agree, the Spaniards have paid the price for their alliance to the US, and dearly. I do not wish that upon anybody, however, I think there is a good case to be made that their support was not in vain.

 

[Comrade]

 

[Avatar4321]

I still havent decided which is worse for the Spanish yet. Having to suffer from the bombings or having to suffer under socialist rule.

 

[Palestinian Jew]

I still havent decided which is worse for the Spanish yet. Having to suffer from the bombings or having to suffer under socialist rule.

I'd rather suffer under a socialist gov't than one that tries to distort the facts and spin everything for political gain, which is what the conservative party there did after the attack. And I'm pretty damn sure that the attack was much worse than socialist rule.

 

[nbdysfu]

Originally posted by Palestinian Jew
I'd rather suffer under a socialist gov't than one that tries to distort the facts and spin everything for political gain.

Your qoute from bubba says it all. No socialist government has ever existed without spin, lies and condescension. Spin everything did they? Really?

 

[Comrade]

A few details on the socialist spin in Spain over the Madrid bombing.

The spin hinged upon the PP "deception" over the true source of the Madrid bombing, a media blitz culmunating in popular demonstrations against the apparent lies of the Aznar party.

On the evening of March 13, thousands of demonstrators, demanding to know who was behind the attacks before the general election the following day, gathered in front of Popular Party offices or government delegations in several major cities. Police monitored these spontaneous demonstrations and in some cases asked demonstrators to produce identification. The Madrid demonstration was cordoned off and riot police was called to stand by. Such spontaneous demonstrations are illegal under Spanish law.

Mariano Rajoy called the demonstrations "undemocratic pressure on tomorrow's elections", and the Popular Party filed a complaint with the Central Electoral Board, as the day before an election is intended to be a "day of reflection" and no political campaigning is allowed. The Central Electoral Board later certified the illegality of the demonstrations. Earlier in the day, the United Left had filed a separate claim against the publication in the newspaper El Mundo of an interview with Rajoy in which he asked voters for "an absolute majority" in Sunday's elections.

Attack and election timeline:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_11,_2004_Madrid_attacks#The_attacks

Interior Minister Acebes pointed in unambiguous terms to ETA, although by the end of the day he was forced to retract and admit that "no possibilities have been discarded

Any major protests against government deception occurred on May 12th, the day AFTER the bombing, at the behest of the left. Acebes named the ETA as the culprit in the first few hours, and this was not an unreasonable assumption given the prior facts:

He said ETA tried a similar attack on Christmas Eve, placing bombs on two trains bound for a Madrid station that was not hit Thursday. He also noted the Feb. 29 police interception of a Madrid-bound van packed with more than 1,100 pounds of explosives. Authorities blamed ETA.

Despite these initial accusations, the first directly linked Aznar statement came that afternoon:

By the time Aznar and the King made their public statements in the afternoon, doubts over ETA's involvement were substantial enough that both of them avoided naming a culprit, and referred just to "terrorists". Aznar insisted on the need to stay the course, echoing his Interior Minister's earlier remarks.

The socialist party leader is also on record at this time using the same uncertain conviction:

“Socialist party leader José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero said that "the political response must be different, according to whether it was an al-Qaida or ETA attack.”

Still on that first day:

“On the evening of March 11, Acebes told a news conference that a van, stolen on February 28 and containing several detonators and an Arabic-language cassette tape with Koranic verses, had been found in the town of Alcalá de Henares, where three of the four bombed trains originated and all four stopped.”

Once the Aznar government announced the van, apparently the few hours needed to first link that to the bombing with certainty, and perhaps another few hours to pursue any immediate suspects without tipping them off by publically announcing it’s discovery, became the basis of the the “coverup conspiracy” brilliantly crafted by the socialist party as it’s “smoking gun” against the Aznar government.

“Claiming that the government held the information about the van found outside the Alcalá station, José Blanco of the PSOE said he believed the government would withhold information until after the March 14 elections.”

Aspects of the unfolding investigation which specifically implicated Islamic orgins were announced by the Aznar government over the following pre-election days, and yet this initial call of “coverup” remained the rallying cry of the left.

“In the afternoon of March 13, 2004, seven suspects were arrested around Madrid in connection with the sale and falsification of a cellphone and pre-paid card found inside the unexploded backpack found at El Pozo station. Three of them were described as Moroccan citizens, two as Indian citizens, and two as Spaniards of Indian origin.”

“According to Spanish Interior Minister Ángel Acebes, a Madrid television station Telemadrid received a phone call on March 13 from a man speaking in Arabic with a Moroccan accent announcing that a videotape claiming responsibility for the attacks could be found in a wastebasket near a Madrid mosque. On the tape, a man speaking Arabic with a Moroccan accent and wearing Arabic dress claimed the group was responsible for the bombings”

Such tactics were not lost on the most hard core backers of the PPOE.

“Cuban president Fidel Castro was more critical, however. Speaking during a television interview, 13 March, 2004 in Havana, Castro accused Spain's government of deceiving its citizens over the Madrid train bombings for electoral gain and that Prime Minister José María Aznar had known an Islamic group was behind the explosions on 11 March, but preferred to blame ETA ahead of 14 March's general elections. “

:

So where is the deception? A delay of several hours in broadcasting key evidence seems to be the BIG ISSUE.

So let’s recap:

1. Initial suspicion of the ETA in the first few hours, while premature, was never disputed by either party.

2. Later evidence first revealed to Spain’s public by Acebes contraverted his own initial assumption.

3. Further claims by the Aznar government of ETA involvement ceased entirely, and evidence announced by the same government well before the election day all led credence to Islamic orgins.

4. Despite the timeliness of such revelations, and the foregone conclusion of an Islamic orgin now continually pursued in both action and words by the Aznar government, the left continued to the take to the streets to denounced Aznar’s continuing “coverup”.

5. The media of the left perpetuated such allegation by continuing to propose the Aznar government was "hiding something". This, despite their announcement in the days following of arrests and video all clearly pointing to Islamic involvement. The spin applied was that such new developments were only forthcoming due to the massive “outrage” over the continued “deception” the Aznar government somehow still perpetuated, despite any public statements to contrary.

And most importantly not one person in Spain really questioned really why it was supposedly vital for Aznar to deny Al-Qaida as the attacker in the first place.

The Socialists must have assigned Aznar a motive for this. What reasonable motive could apply?

Is it a foregone conclusion that Spain would appease such an attack by voting out the government aggressively active in the WOT?

And assuming Aznar’s role in Iraq wasn’t related to the war on terror, as the Spanish Socialist party claimed, why did Al-Qaida specifically target Spain over this policy? Call me crazy but when the terrorists attack you over something maybe you are doing something right, eh?

If Al-Qaida’s role was supposed to be hidden by Aznar, doesn't that assume the voters of Spain are appeasing cowards?

 

[kcmcdonald]

Yes the voters of spain are appeasers. some might say that Anzar's govt. was going to lose the elections anyway but all the polls I saw the day of the bombing had Anzar's party still holding on to a majority. After the attacks the Socialists won a major upset and turned the ocuntry 180 degres around. Instead of fighting terror in Iraq and the middleeast now it will be fought in spain. the Govt went from proactive, to reactive. All of this because the spainish people couldn't stomach another attack. so instead of steeping up actions and opperations the spanish have called timeout and are going to quit not even half way through the game.

 

[nbdysfu]

Excellent summation comrade.

 

[Bry]

er, yeah, talk about spin. Castro, and all. The bit about the demonstrations prior to the elections is nice but it was not associated with any political party, and therefore was perfectly legal. Too bad the only source you actually list is wikipedia.

Here's what the wikipedia article which you refrence says about the government's response:

Also on March 11, foreign correspondents in Spain received unsolicited phone calls from the office of the Prime Minister assuring them that ETA was responsible, and Foreign Minister Ana Palacio sent a communication to all Spanish embassies instructing them to assure foreign governments and press that ETA was responsible, "helping to dispel any doubts that interested parties may cast". On the evening of March 12, government officials contacted newspapers across Spain to assure them that the attacks could be attributed to ETA without a doubt. As late as 15:00 on Saturday, March 13, Acebes claimed not to have any information from security forces casting doubts on ETA involvement. On March 16 the Washington post reported that the government knew early on that there was evidence pointing to islamic terrorism, but they instucted the police to keep quiet about it and instead pushed the idea that ETA was behind it. Also many reporters were contacted and asked to write that ETA was behind the attack.

sounds like it's all on the up and up, eh?

Here's what the same article says about Aznar's first intervention:

In his first public comments on the day of the attacks, Aznar made it clear that he believed that ETA was responsible, referring to the perpetrators as "the terrorist band" – the Spanish government's usual term for ETA.

A far cry what you are indicating, Aznar maintained that ETA was the primary suspect. While he conspicuously left out the name ETA from his discourse, it was plain to every Spaniard listening that he was talking about ETA. That's all well and good, but the fact is that all of the evidence, including leaks from the CNI which the government has since coroberated indicated that the culprits were Islamic extremists, dating from the tape of the Koran in the truck that was found on the 11th. Acebes, in his famous second pronouncement on the day of the bombing, the pronouncement which you say was essentially a retraction of his earlier statements the the culprit was most certainly ETA, downplayed the significance of the tape, saying it was a tape you could buy anywhere which was essentially for pedogogical use for anyone interested in Arabic and the Koran. In spite of this new information, the only real information released up to that point, Acebes maintained that the primary suspect continued to be ETA, although leaks were already being made public that the CNI believed from the beginning that the attacks were from Islamic Extremists. Spain is currently being asked to submit to investigations from the European Community because of false information that was passed between the CNI and Intelligence organizations of other European nations. Spin it however you want, comrade, you're analysis is a house of cards. None of the information that has surfaced since the attacks has suggested the involvement of ETA, but the Government, in all of its interventions, stated inequivocably that ETA was the primary suspect, not just before the Spanish public, but also before the international media, and before other intelligence services in the European Union and the UN.

Now, for your sumup.

2. Later evidence first revealed to Spain’s public by Acebes contraverted his own initial assumption.

Acebes never "contraverted" his initial assuption, rather he maintained that ETA continued to be the primary suspect. At least you are spelling his name correctly now.

3. Further claims by the Aznar government of ETA involvement ceased entirely, and evidence announced by the same government well before the election day all led credence to Islamic orgins.

In all of the government releases prior to the election, evidence indicating Islamic extremists was downplayed, and ETA was beat like a drum. There is no evidence to the contrary, as I gather from your inability to produce any.

4. Despite the timeliness of such revelations, and the foregone conclusion of an Islamic orgin now continually pursued in both action and words by the Aznar government, the left continued to the take to the streets to denounced Aznar’s continuing “coverup”.

At any point do you become embarassed for the crap you spew? Again, ANY government quote indicating that Islamic fundamentalists were the primary suspect, prior to Sunday, the day of the elections, would be nice.

5. The media of the left perpetuated such allegation by continuing to propose the Aznar government was "hiding something". This, despite their announcement in the days following of arrests and video all clearly pointing to Islamic involvement. The spin applied was that such new developments were only forthcoming due to the massive “outrage” over the continued “deception” the Aznar government somehow still perpetuated, despite any public statements to contrary.

Even after the arrests, the government was emphasizing the possibility of ETA responsibility.

Here is the actual timeline. It's in Spanish, of course.

- Jueves, 11. 12.00 horas. Declaración institucional de Rajoy en la que no cita explícitamente a ningún posible culpable. "Están desafiando a todos los españoles; y los españoles no vamos a ceder. No van a doblegarnos. No van a conseguir nada. No van a quedar sin castigo. Puedo asegurarles que España acabará con esta lacra asesina del terrorismo", asegura.
- Jueves 11. 13.00 horas. Ángel Acebes comparece por primera vez para asegurar tajante que "no le cabía ninguna duda" de que ETA estaba detrás. "ETA buscaba una masacre en España" y concluía: "Ha conseguido su objetivo". Y tras la pregunta de un periodista sobre la posibilidad de que la autoría fuera Al Qaeda contesta: "No tengo ninguna duda de que el responsable es ETA. Estamos asistiendo a un proceso de intoxicación que ha iniciado el señor Otegi de manera miserable para desviar la atención".

-Jueves, 11. 13.30 horas. El presidente del Gobierno, José María Aznar, llama a los directores de periódicos más importantes para ratificarles que ETA fue la autora de los atentados.

- Jueves, 11. 14.00 horas. Declaración institucional del Gobierno en la que el presidente del Ejecutivo no atribuye el atentado a nadie y esquiva la palabra ETA. Aznar: "Los terroristas han querido provocar todo el daño posible. Se trata de un asesinato masivo que, como todo ataque terrorista, carece de cualquier justificación. Pero el terrorismo no es ciego. Han matado a muchas personas por el mero hecho de ser españoles. Todos sabemos que este asesinato masivo no es la primera vez que se intenta."

- Jueves 11. 17.25 horas. Una carta firmada por la ministra de Asuntos Exteriores y desvelada por la SER el viernes, instruye a todos los embajadores para que defendieran la autoría de ETA ante medios de comunicación y autoridades. La carta acusaba a "alguna fuerza política" de estar confundiendo a la opinión pública sobre la autoría de la matanza.

- Jueves, 11, 20.00 horas. El ministro del Interior volvía a comparecer para anunciar que se había encontrado en Alcalá de Henares una furgoneta, robada en Madrid el 28 de febrero, en la que se encontraron siete detonadores y una cinta en árabe con versículos del Corán. A pesar de ello Acebes insistía en que la principal línea de investigación era ETA. "Los precedentes, tanto el tren contra Madrid de nochebuena como la furgoneta con explosivos, apuntan a la intención de ETA de cometer un atentado de grandes dimensiones". Hacia las 21.00 horas se conocía la existencia de una supuesta carta de reivindicación de una facción de Al Qaeda, remitida a un diario árabe editado en Londres la noche anterior. La organización atribuía la masacre a un "ajuste de viejas cuentas" con España.

- Jueves, 11. 20.45, el presidente del Gobierno, José María Aznar, vuelve a llamar a los directores de medios escritos más importantes del país para insistirles que, a pesar de los nuevos datos, el atentado es obra de ETA.

- Jueves 11, 00.00 horas, el portavoz del Gobierno en una entrevista a Alfredo Urdaci en TVE aseguró que "todo nos lleva a que la autoría corresponde a ETA". Y señaló que la organización terrorista ya "lo ha intentado en otras ocasiones anteriores". Zaplana afirmó que se está creando un escenario de confusión "por parte de algunos", cuando "todo apunta a la misma dirección", a que ha sido ETA la autora de los atentados.

- Viernes 12, 11.00 horas. El presidente del Gobierno José Mª Aznar se manifestaba en la misma línea que el ministro de Interior e insistía en confirmar que ETA es la principa sospechosa del atentado. Aseguró que un Gobierno "con dos dedos de frente en España, después de 30 años de terrorismo, ante un atentado como el de ayer tiene que pensar lógicamente, razonablemente, que tiene que ser esa banda la autora". "¿Qué pretendía esa organización terrorista cuando quería entrar la semana pasada en Madrid 500 kilos de explosivos?", dijo el presidente.

- Viernes 12, 20.00 horas. Acebes vuelve a asegurar que "ETA es la principal línea de investigación" y que no había "en estos momentos, "ningún motivo" para que no fuera así. Recordó de nuevo los intentos de ETA de atentar en Nochebuena pasada, pero también con la de Nochevieja, el año anterior. "Hemos estado repasando y nadie tiene ningún tipo de duda de que ETA pretendía un atentado antes de las elecciones". Mientras hablaba el ministro Acebes, ETA emitía un comunicado en el que negaba cualquier participación en el atentado. Al conocer la noticia, el ministro del Interior dijo: "No nos lo creemos".

- En la edición del sábado 13 del periódico El Mundo, se publica una entrevista a Mariano Rajoy, (denunciada a la Junta Electoral por IU al salir en jornada de reflexión) en la que el candidato del PP asegura tener "la convicción moral de que fue ETA".

- Sábado 13. 12.00 horas. El sábado por la mañana, de nuevo el portavoz del Gobierno afirmaba que ETA era la línea principal de investigación: "Yo no puedo afirmar ni negar quién ha sido, porque no lo conocemos. Pero desde luego lo que han hecho es muy parecido a lo que ETA quiso hacer en diciembre y cuando se interceptaron más de 500 kilos de explosivos en Cuenca". Aseguró que "cuando hay un atentado de esta naturaleza, gravedad y trascendencia y con similitudes evidentes a las intentonas abortadas recientemente a la banda terrorista ETA, resulta que algunos parece que quieren descartar que pueda ser la banda criminal y asesina ETA, cuando todo apunta y hay líneas de investigación en marcha, de las que se ha dado cuenta, que no nos debería causar ninguna sorpresa que fueran los criminales de ETA", argumentó.

-Sábado 13. 14.30 horas. El sábado por la tarde, ya se conocía la existencia de una mochila con explosivos que no son los habituales de ETA y un teléfono móvil. Las investigaciones de la Policía continúan a buen ritmo pero el ministro Acebes sigue centrado en la organización terrorista. "A ningún español le puede extrañar que la prioridad se la banda terrorista que lleva 30 años actuando en España y que ha causado casi 900 muertos". Y añadió textualmente: "Que sea Al Qaeda... ningún responsable de las fuerzas y cuerpos de seguridad me ha dicho que en estos momentos tengan ninguna línea preferente respecto a esa organización terrorista". Al terminar la rueda de prensa de Acebes, La SER desvela que las investigaciones del CNI se centran, al 99%, en un grupo extremista islámico.

- Sábado 13. 15.00 horas. Minutos después, el director de información de la agencia EFE, Miguel Platón, el hombre del gobierno en la agencia forzó en medio de las protestas de los redactores, el envió de una noticia titulada: "Las pistas apuntan a ETA y descartan a Al qaeda". Esta noticia permaneció en la portada de la página web de la agencia EFE hasta que Acebes comparece horas después para anunciar las detenciones.

- Sábado 13. 16.30 horas. llega a la SER un telegrama del Centro Nacional de Inteligencia en el que, aunque se anuncia un desmentido, realmente sólo se niega que se haya descartado a ETA, algo que la SER no había dicho. A esa hora, la Cadena SER tiene ya constancia de que el juez ha firmado, ya horas antes, las órdenes de detencion de cinco sospechosos árabes e indios cuya detención estaba en marcha aquella hora. La hipótesis de Al Qaeda se confirmaba pero la SER no hace públicas estas detenciones en ese momento para no perjudicar la operación policial en marcha. Había ya detenciones relacionadas con el terrorismo islámico pero el director del CNI intenta desmentir a la SER.

- Sábado 13. 20.00 horas. Acebes confirma en la tarde noche la detención de cinco sospechosos, tres marroquíes y dos indios: "Hay una línea de investigación muy buena y por esa se está avanzando, pero no se renuncia a ninguna otra, ni conexiones, ni colaboraciones, veremos a donde nos lleva esta vía", explicó.

- En la madrugada del sábado 13 al domingo 14, el ministro del Interior comparece de nuevo para informar de que un supuesto "portavoz militar" de Al Qaeda en Europa había asumido la responsabilidad de los atentados terroristas cometidos el jueves en una cinta de vídeo. "Era nuestra convicción, como siempre dije en ese momento con todas las cautelas, pero desde el convencimiento de que era la organización terrorista ETA".

from:
http://www.cadenaser.com/articulo.html?xref=20040313csrcsrnac_16&type=Tes&anchor=

The first time the government in any way acknowledges that ETA might not be the primary suspect is at 8:00, Saturday evening, after the arrests of three Morroquis and two Indian nationals, at which point Acebes says (I'm translating from the quote represented above) "There is a very good line of investigation that is being followed, but we do not renounce any other line of investigation nor connections nor colaborations, we will see where this line leads us." If that's your idea of setting the record straight, You'd better think twice.

 

[nbdysfu]

Bry,

Here's a babelfish translator. http://world.altavista.com/

It will give a pretty rough translation of what you're using for your argument, but it's better than nothing. A timeline from cadenaSER? That wouldn't be affiliated with the more than slightly left leaning radio SER, that ran the Aznar attacking coverage would it?

[qoute]
The first time the government in any way acknowledges that ETA might not be the primary suspect is at 8:00, Saturday evening, after the arrests of three Morroquis and two Indian nationals, at which point Acebes says (I'm translating from the quote represented above) "There is a very good line of investigation that is being followed, but we do not renounce any other line of investigation nor connections nor colaborations, we will see where this line leads us." If that's your idea of setting the record straight, You'd better think twice. [/QUOTE]


Actually it reinforces something else in my mind. You have no definitive proof that they were deliberately mangling the information. And then even after that, you also have to prove a connection to their motive of keeping the election from being swung in Al Qaeda's favor.

Alright, let's assume that, as you say, "The first time the government in any way acknowledges that ETA might not be the primary suspect is at 8:00, Saturday evening, after the arrests of three Morro[cans?] and two Indian nationals,." So there MAY have been a delay of the release of significant information. WHY? Generally, it is not intelligent when chasing down a few criminals, to publicly announce 'hey x,x, and x, we're coming to get you'. There is a likelihood that they delayed the release of information to aid the capture of the suspects, which they are still rounding up. Why should he be setting the record straight if they haven't haven't finished chasing down the initial suspects? Another reason for them to to have delayed the release was that there had been a similar attempt by eta in the previous month of the exact same train attack and that the packaging of the bombs was eta-style rather than suicide bomber. Just as likely to have happened.

 

[Bry]

That's right. The best you can say of the government is that they may not have done anything that will get their asses stuck in jail. At the agencia EFE, the Spanish language equivalent of the AP, the government's overseer, over the objections of the press writers, forced the inclusion as the top news item on their web page Saturday evening an article titled "Evidence points to ETA, discards Al Qaeda". You may or may not count it as evidence, but the fact is that as late as 8:45 in the evening of Thursday, after evidence already undeniably pointed in the direction of Al Qaeda, Aznar was making personal calls to newspaper editors to tell them that ETA should appear in the news papers as the primary suspect. Their motivation is rather obvious. As I stated myself in a post here on Friday, the PP knew that the election probably hinged on the results of their investigation. I see no other reason for the massive campaign which they mounted to get ETAs name in the headlines around the world and even the international intelligence community, right up to the day of the election. If what you are looking for is a signed and sealed memo from the president saying "we have and will continute to manipulate the information regarding the terrorist attack", it hasn't been found yet. On the other hand, the evidence is incontrovertible, as has already been born out by the election itself along with a poll conducted Saturday indicating that 51% of the public flatly believed the government was manipulating information, while those that believed the government were quantified at 20 some percent. Perhaps you think 51% of the public listen to the now-demonized Cadena Ser? Nevermind that every piece of information made public by La Ser has been demonstrated to be accurate. Welcome to Democracy, friend.

Today, 80% of the public believe there was significant manipulation on the part of the government. 5% believe information was manipulated by La Cadena Ser. Why do you think your impressions are so different from those of the Spanish people? Perhaps you think you can see something they can't. Is it possible that you have never listened to La Ser or any pronouncements emmanated from the government? It's a mute point. I'm content to wait and see how things fall out rather than continue defending the obvious.

 

[Comrade]

Originally posted by Bry
er, yeah, talk about spin. Castro, and all. The bit about the demonstrations prior to the elections is nice but it was not associated with any political party, and therefore was perfectly legal. Too bad the only source you actually list is wikipedia.

One demonstration in Madrid was actually ruled as illegal.

I linked to it earlier and my links are just fine.

A far cry what you are indicating, Aznar maintained that ETA was the primary suspect. While he conspicuously left out the name ETA from his discourse, it was plain to every Spaniard listening that he was talking about ETA.

By the same logic, since he conspicuously left out the name Al-Qaida from his discourse, it should have been plain to every Spaniard that he was also talking about Al-Qaida.

This speech is intentionally vague by design. Specifically written not to outline a suspect but to condemn the act. No “ETA” nor Al-Qaida connection was supposed to be drawn from the text, and in case you still insist quote text from this link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3503184.stm

That's all well and good, but the fact is that all of the evidence, including leaks from the CNI which the government has since coroberated indicated that the culprits were Islamic extremists, dating from the tape of the Koran in the truck that was found on the 11th.

These “leaks” or “facts”, what have you, are selectively pulled the AP report on March 13th.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/w-eur/2004/mar/13/031309153.html

“The Spanish radio station , Cadena Ser which Is close to the opposition Socialist Party, quoted sources at the national intelligence agency CNI as saying agents were "99 percent sure" that Islamic militants, not Basque separatists, were behind the attacks.
The agents believe a 10-15 member cell placed the bombs on the trains and may have fled the country, Cadena Ser said, quoting “unnamed sources” at the CNI. But CNI director Jorge Dezcallar denied the report, telling the news agency Efe that agents do not favor one line of investigation over another.

I’d put the single verifiable statement against “unnamed sources” any day. This radio station in question is highly motivated to discredit the Aznar government, and also raised the threat of an Aznar coup the night before the election. Whatever it takes, lefties!

I came across a new source of documents that were declassified by the outgoing PP government and made public this last Friday The whole campaign against Aznar by the socialists was planned far better than I suspected.

http://www.command-post.org/gwot/2_archives/011060.html

(Espanol)
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2004/03/18/enespecial/1079629220.html

The CNI in control of the entire investigation offered up the ETI allegations and continued to intentionally distort it’s claims to sabotage the PP in power. The issues you take with Acebes is better directed at this agency.

“At 15.51, with still no concrete proof, the CNI reported to the Interior Minister that they were “nearly certain” that ATE was responsible.”

16.04 - CNI reports to government that they doubt the veracity of the statement to the London newspaper by Al Qaeda.

16.50 - CNI director assures the press agency EFE that they haven’t abandoned the ETA lead.

The CNI created the controversy, and continued to feed it beyond any reasonable basis.

The Aznar cabinet realized only too late that the CNI was actually feeding them information designed to set up the ambush from the left.

Note the link to CNI’s role is from CNI records, not Aznar’s.


No love lost between them…

http://bangladesh-web.com/view.php?hidDate=2004-03-21&hidType=RIN&hidRecord=0000000000000000004231

AFP, MADRID, March 20 :The decision of Spain’s outgoing conservative government to release classified documents on the March 11 bombings has angered the country’s intelligence agency, newspapers have reported.

Stung by criticism it had misled the public that the Basque separatist group ETA was the leading suspect in the train blasts that killed 202 people, the outgoing government released Thursday classified documents to prove “to all impartial and objective observers the accuracy of the information” it gave.

The only remaining aspect of CNI’s sabotage of Aznar is motive…

(Translated from Spanish)
It is necessary to remember that the present Director of the CNI, the diplomat Jorge Dezcallar, Ambassador in Morocco until his appointment, have been considered affluent person related to the PSOE. (19-03-2004)"

So the leader of the CNI is a socialist and PSOE party affiliate.


The entire leadership of CNI transitioned into the socialist government quite nicely, don’t you think?

If Jorge Dezcallar signed off on the ETA allegations personally why does the PSOE tolerate him? Does his role in the PP coverup mock the socialists over their pursuit of honest government?

Well apparently the PSOE has little to say over his agner with the former Aznar group.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1501155,00.html

Members of Spain's national intelligence agency CNI were indignant at the "political use of a state institution," according the daily El Mundo.

Oh the indignation! To be outed as a leftist pawn!!!

The anger over being drawn into a political row is so deep at the agency that its director, Jorge Dezcallar, tendered his resignation on Thursday but it was not accepted, the daily ABC reported.

You know your loves you Jorge, you deceitfull poser you!


Comments?

 

[nbdysfu]

originally posted by Bry
80% of the public believe there was significant manipulation on the part of the government. 5% believe information was manipulated by La Cadena Ser. Why do you think your impressions are so different from those of the Spanish people?
___________ ____________
Simply, I don't choose between Ser and el Mundo for my daily news.


___________
I'm content to wait and see how things fall out rather than continue defending the obvious.
___________ ____________

So am I. Hope Zapatero proves he has a spine and actually follows through on the one thing that got him into office, for the sake of the spanish people.
The impression I get is that he barely won the primary for his party, which is already known for infighting, the reason why PP was more likely to maintain at least a tie pre 3-11.

 

[Comrade]

Originally posted by nbdysfu
80% of the public believe there was significant manipulation on the part of the government. 5% believe information was manipulated by La Cadena Ser. Why do you think your impressions are so different from those of the Spanish people?
___________ ____________
Simply, I don't choose between Ser and el Mundo for my daily news.

And wisely!

I hope you understand the evidence I link to, is sourced directly from CNI records, having nothing to do whatsoever with either politically driven media source.

I pointed to these new developments in direct response to Bry's insistence on the deception of the Aznar party. While I agree this perception in the first few days after the bombing and before the election of PP deception was a popular one, I believe the socialist deception[/b] embedded in it's campaign to discredit the PP is far more evident given the facts I have provided. You would do well to address the recent public CNI links before attempting to continue to espouse Aznar "lies".

The motive for such lies, hinges upon the single question. Are Spainards appeasing cowards?

I'm content to wait and see how things fall out rather than continue defending the obvious.

So you have no ability to address the CNI links I offered? Bry offered the same sanctimonious BS, "everyone knew it to be true". I refuse to be programmed without you both addressing the evidence.

So am I. Hope Zapatero proves he has a spine and actually follows through on the one thing that got him into office, for the sake of the spanish people.

There will be no active role in the coalition from the Spanish socialists in charge. There is also very little cause for Spain to now be targeted for by Islamic terror, which would now be counter-productive in any rational sense. The terrorists are not stupid.

The impression I get is that he barely won the primary for his party, which is already known for infighting, the reason why PP was more likely to maintain at least a tie pre 3-11.

The polls clearly demonstrated the PP winning a majority before the bombing, and the results since clearly prove the success of the socialist campaign to capitalize on it through deception that was propagated by the socialist mole as head of the CNI.

Don't you get this?

 

[nbdysfu]

dude, calm down. reread my post.

my basic intent was PP lost because of a conditioned perception of lack of credibility. This installed a party so fractured and ineffective it previously couldn't garner support from a majority of the public. Zapatero couldn't even garner overwhelming majority in his own party. If he proves to be inept. There will be a chaotic political situation in Spain. Of course, the psoe failed to even garner a majority in parliament, so even then who knows.

 

[Comrade]

Hehe, shoot first and ask questions later, I say!

 

[nbdysfu]

:dev1:THAT'S OK Bu WAH HA HA AAA:dev1: