Alex O'Connor vs Frank Turek | The Moral Argument DEBATE

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.
And that is a big if.

There is absolutely no evidence of some universal code of behavior. And for there to be one then there would have to be an absolute authority that authored that moral code.

There is none
Well said.

I’m always uncomfortable when the hyper-religious choose to lecture others on “morality”. We could get into the utterly chilling lack of ethics and morality that is evoked by the treatment of people under religious authoritarianism - considering that bastion of enlightenment such as the Christian Europe during the Dark Ages - but that’s a thread unto itself.

The sense of self-sacrifice, nurturing, decision making and making “moral” choices is a higher brain function and it's seen in comparably lesser degrees in lesser animals. This in and of itself is enough to suggest that "morality" is a natural phenomenon of higher brain functions. A measure of language, nurturing, survival, industry, and even environmental control, all can be attributed to animals lesser on the sentience strat than man.


Ultimately, I would propose that morality involves decision making (or making a choice), where decision making is accomplished with a cognizant awareness of consequences. The mammalian sense of nurturing the young is not morality, it’s a function of evolution that seeks to preserve the species.

I suppose what defines morality is our expectations and choices as to how we extend such gestures as compassion, empathy, fairness, etc.

Going further, I don't think all moral impulses are learned. I think left to our own devices in a world devoid of civilization, we wouldn't blindly and blatantly kill, we likely wouldn't mate upwards with our parents. Fitness for survival would likely preclude this from happening as we would likely nurture our babies and try to protect them.

If we were to posit a world where humans are stripped of their morality, they’re still going to behave in ways that favor survival, not only of self but of the species, whether that boils down to a nuclear family or a tribe.
 
What you say is good or bad might not be considered good or bad by someone else.

So you're saying that an absolute, universally objective standard of morality doesn't exist?
correct.

Morals have changed over time as humans and societies have evolved
No. Man's perception of right and wrong can change over time because man is subjective. Logic is not subjective. Morals are based upon logic.
Morals are created by humans therefore they cannot be universal
No, dummy. Logic determines what standards are. Standards exist for logical reasons. Man is subjective and can ass fuck logic when it is in his interest. For example, there was a time when man believed it was moral to own human beings. That is man ass fucking logic. Unless of course you believe they were morally justified in owning humans, do you?
man determines his own standards.

And FYI logic as we know is man made. Logic is nothing but man's attempt to analyze his own reasoning process.

We discarded slavery as our societies evolved because the people who believed slavery was not justifiable outnumbered the people who thought it was.
So you could determine that fucking little kids was moral?

I wouldn't but I'm sure some cultures and societies have in the past
 
So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.
And that is a big if.

There is absolutely no evidence of some universal code of behavior. And for there to be one then there would have to be an absolute authority that authored that moral code.

There is none
Dude, I just showed it to you. Logic is universal and logic determines what standards are. Not some fucked up selfish man who wants to own people or fuck little kids. Logic tells you that those things are wrong and that if you do them there will be predictable consequences.

You showed me no proof that logic exists outside the minds of humans.
 
What you say is good or bad might not be considered good or bad by someone else.

So you're saying that an absolute, universally objective standard of morality doesn't exist?
correct.

Morals have changed over time as humans and societies have evolved
No. Man's perception of right and wrong can change over time because man is subjective. Logic is not subjective. Morals are based upon logic.
Morals are created by humans therefore they cannot be universal
No, dummy. Logic determines what standards are. Standards exist for logical reasons. Man is subjective and can ass fuck logic when it is in his interest. For example, there was a time when man believed it was moral to own human beings. That is man ass fucking logic. Unless of course you believe they were morally justified in owning humans, do you?
man determines his own standards.

And FYI logic as we know is man made. Logic is nothing but man's attempt to analyze his own reasoning process.

We discarded slavery as our societies evolved because the people who believed slavery was not justifiable outnumbered the people who thought it was.
So you could determine that fucking little kids was moral?

I wouldn't but I'm sure some cultures and societies have in the past
And they were wrong. But in your world you would excuse it because you believe morals can be anything man says.
 
What you say is good or bad might not be considered good or bad by someone else.

So you're saying that an absolute, universally objective standard of morality doesn't exist?
correct.

Morals have changed over time as humans and societies have evolved
No. Man's perception of right and wrong can change over time because man is subjective. Logic is not subjective. Morals are based upon logic.
Morals are created by humans therefore they cannot be universal
No, dummy. Logic determines what standards are. Standards exist for logical reasons. Man is subjective and can ass fuck logic when it is in his interest. For example, there was a time when man believed it was moral to own human beings. That is man ass fucking logic. Unless of course you believe they were morally justified in owning humans, do you?
man determines his own standards.

And FYI logic as we know is man made. Logic is nothing but man's attempt to analyze his own reasoning process.

We discarded slavery as our societies evolved because the people who believed slavery was not justifiable outnumbered the people who thought it was.
So you could determine that fucking little kids was moral?

I wouldn't but I'm sure some cultures and societies have in the past
And they were wrong. But in your world you would excuse it because you believe morals can be anything man says.
I wouldn't excuse it.

I have been raised in a society that finds child molestation to be reprehensible. That does not mean that there haven't been societies that didn't find child molestation reprehensible.

You have no understanding of history, anthropology or sociology.
 
So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.
And that is a big if.

There is absolutely no evidence of some universal code of behavior. And for there to be one then there would have to be an absolute authority that authored that moral code.

There is none
Dude, I just showed it to you. Logic is universal and logic determines what standards are. Not some fucked up selfish man who wants to own people or fuck little kids. Logic tells you that those things are wrong and that if you do them there will be predictable consequences.

You showed me no proof that logic exists outside the minds of humans.
Everything is manifested in mind. So by your logic nothing exists apart from human mind. That just isn't so though. Ask any great scientist and they will tell you that they did not invent anything, they discovered it. Ergo it exists apart from human mind.

You are not a stupid man, so please stop acting like one. Lest you become a militant atheist like Hollie.
 
What you say is good or bad might not be considered good or bad by someone else.

So you're saying that an absolute, universally objective standard of morality doesn't exist?
correct.

Morals have changed over time as humans and societies have evolved
No. Man's perception of right and wrong can change over time because man is subjective. Logic is not subjective. Morals are based upon logic.
Morals are created by humans therefore they cannot be universal
No, dummy. Logic determines what standards are. Standards exist for logical reasons. Man is subjective and can ass fuck logic when it is in his interest. For example, there was a time when man believed it was moral to own human beings. That is man ass fucking logic. Unless of course you believe they were morally justified in owning humans, do you?
man determines his own standards.

And FYI logic as we know is man made. Logic is nothing but man's attempt to analyze his own reasoning process.

We discarded slavery as our societies evolved because the people who believed slavery was not justifiable outnumbered the people who thought it was.
So you could determine that fucking little kids was moral?

I wouldn't but I'm sure some cultures and societies have in the past
And they were wrong. But in your world you would excuse it because you believe morals can be anything man says.
I wouldn't excuse it.

I have been raised in a society that finds child molestation to be reprehensible. That does not mean that there haven't been societies that didn't find child molestation reprehensible.

You have no understanding of history, anthropology or sociology.
You would have zero basis it to oppose it because according to you morals are just opinions. So what makes your opinion any better than anyone else's? It's the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
 
God I hope these people get to experience their predictable surprises from normalizing their deviance.
 
So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.
And that is a big if.

There is absolutely no evidence of some universal code of behavior. And for there to be one then there would have to be an absolute authority that authored that moral code.

There is none
Dude, I just showed it to you. Logic is universal and logic determines what standards are. Not some fucked up selfish man who wants to own people or fuck little kids. Logic tells you that those things are wrong and that if you do them there will be predictable consequences.

You showed me no proof that logic exists outside the minds of humans.
Everything is manifested in mind. So by your logic nothing exists apart from human mind. That just isn't so though. Ask any great scientist and they will tell you that they did not invent anything, they discovered it. Ergo it exists apart from human mind.

You are not a stupid man, so please stop acting like one. Lest you become a militant atheist like Hollie.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

For one logic is not a physical thing that can exist outside of the mind.
 
So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.
And that is a big if.

There is absolutely no evidence of some universal code of behavior. And for there to be one then there would have to be an absolute authority that authored that moral code.

There is none
Dude, I just showed it to you. Logic is universal and logic determines what standards are. Not some fucked up selfish man who wants to own people or fuck little kids. Logic tells you that those things are wrong and that if you do them there will be predictable consequences.

You showed me no proof that logic exists outside the minds of humans.
Everything is manifested in mind. So by your logic nothing exists apart from human mind. That just isn't so though. Ask any great scientist and they will tell you that they did not invent anything, they discovered it. Ergo it exists apart from human mind.

You are not a stupid man, so please stop acting like one. Lest you become a militant atheist like Hollie.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

For one logic is not a physical thing that can exist outside of the mind.
It's the logical conclusion of your beliefs.

So did Einstein invent E=mc^2 or did he discover it?
 
What you say is good or bad might not be considered good or bad by someone else.

So you're saying that an absolute, universally objective standard of morality doesn't exist?
correct.

Morals have changed over time as humans and societies have evolved
No. Man's perception of right and wrong can change over time because man is subjective. Logic is not subjective. Morals are based upon logic.
Morals are created by humans therefore they cannot be universal
No, dummy. Logic determines what standards are. Standards exist for logical reasons. Man is subjective and can ass fuck logic when it is in his interest. For example, there was a time when man believed it was moral to own human beings. That is man ass fucking logic. Unless of course you believe they were morally justified in owning humans, do you?
man determines his own standards.

And FYI logic as we know is man made. Logic is nothing but man's attempt to analyze his own reasoning process.

We discarded slavery as our societies evolved because the people who believed slavery was not justifiable outnumbered the people who thought it was.
So you could determine that fucking little kids was moral?

I wouldn't but I'm sure some cultures and societies have in the past
And they were wrong. But in your world you would excuse it because you believe morals can be anything man says.
I wouldn't excuse it.

I have been raised in a society that finds child molestation to be reprehensible. That does not mean that there haven't been societies that didn't find child molestation reprehensible.

You have no understanding of history, anthropology or sociology.
You would have zero basis it to oppose it because according to you morals are just opinions. So what makes your opinion any better than anyone else's? It's the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

I oppose it because I am a product of my society and my thoughts, behaviors , morals and ethics are part of that conditioning.

And where did I say my opinion was better than anyone else?

You're the one who feels threatened by a differing opinion since you have resorted to ad hominem attacks after my first post here.

BTW what do the tenets of logic say regarding ad hominem alltacks?
 
So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.
And that is a big if.

There is absolutely no evidence of some universal code of behavior. And for there to be one then there would have to be an absolute authority that authored that moral code.

There is none
Dude, I just showed it to you. Logic is universal and logic determines what standards are. Not some fucked up selfish man who wants to own people or fuck little kids. Logic tells you that those things are wrong and that if you do them there will be predictable consequences.

You showed me no proof that logic exists outside the minds of humans.
Everything is manifested in mind. So by your logic nothing exists apart from human mind. That just isn't so though. Ask any great scientist and they will tell you that they did not invent anything, they discovered it. Ergo it exists apart from human mind.

You are not a stupid man, so please stop acting like one. Lest you become a militant atheist like Hollie.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

For one logic is not a physical thing that can exist outside of the mind.
It's the logical conclusion of your beliefs.

So did Einstein invent E=mc^2 or did he discover it?
No it is your conclusion
 
What you say is good or bad might not be considered good or bad by someone else.

So you're saying that an absolute, universally objective standard of morality doesn't exist?
correct.

Morals have changed over time as humans and societies have evolved
No. Man's perception of right and wrong can change over time because man is subjective. Logic is not subjective. Morals are based upon logic.
Morals are created by humans therefore they cannot be universal
No, dummy. Logic determines what standards are. Standards exist for logical reasons. Man is subjective and can ass fuck logic when it is in his interest. For example, there was a time when man believed it was moral to own human beings. That is man ass fucking logic. Unless of course you believe they were morally justified in owning humans, do you?
man determines his own standards.

And FYI logic as we know is man made. Logic is nothing but man's attempt to analyze his own reasoning process.

We discarded slavery as our societies evolved because the people who believed slavery was not justifiable outnumbered the people who thought it was.
So you could determine that fucking little kids was moral?

I wouldn't but I'm sure some cultures and societies have in the past
And they were wrong. But in your world you would excuse it because you believe morals can be anything man says.
I wouldn't excuse it.

I have been raised in a society that finds child molestation to be reprehensible. That does not mean that there haven't been societies that didn't find child molestation reprehensible.

You have no understanding of history, anthropology or sociology.
You would have zero basis it to oppose it because according to you morals are just opinions. So what makes your opinion any better than anyone else's? It's the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

I oppose it because I am a product of my society and my thoughts, behaviors , morals and ethics are part of that conditioning.

And where did I say my opinion was better than anyone else?

You're the one who feels threatened by a differing opinion since you have resorted to ad hominem attacks after my first post here.

BTW what do the tenets of logic say regarding ad hominem alltacks?
My point is that if you believe morals are just opinions instead of standards which exist for logical reasons then you have no basis to think your opinions are any better than anyone else's. Ergo you have no basis in logic to oppose anyone else's opinions of right and wrong.
 
So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.
And that is a big if.

There is absolutely no evidence of some universal code of behavior. And for there to be one then there would have to be an absolute authority that authored that moral code.

There is none
Dude, I just showed it to you. Logic is universal and logic determines what standards are. Not some fucked up selfish man who wants to own people or fuck little kids. Logic tells you that those things are wrong and that if you do them there will be predictable consequences.

You showed me no proof that logic exists outside the minds of humans.
Everything is manifested in mind. So by your logic nothing exists apart from human mind. That just isn't so though. Ask any great scientist and they will tell you that they did not invent anything, they discovered it. Ergo it exists apart from human mind.

You are not a stupid man, so please stop acting like one. Lest you become a militant atheist like Hollie.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

For one logic is not a physical thing that can exist outside of the mind.
It's the logical conclusion of your beliefs.

So did Einstein invent E=mc^2 or did he discover it?
No it is your conclusion
No. You just aren't intelligent enough to understand the consequences of your beliefs.

Did Einstein invent E=mc^2 or did he discover it? If he discovered it then it existed before mind existed. Same as logic.
 
What you say is good or bad might not be considered good or bad by someone else.

So you're saying that an absolute, universally objective standard of morality doesn't exist?
correct.

Morals have changed over time as humans and societies have evolved
No. Man's perception of right and wrong can change over time because man is subjective. Logic is not subjective. Morals are based upon logic.
Morals are created by humans therefore they cannot be universal
No, dummy. Logic determines what standards are. Standards exist for logical reasons. Man is subjective and can ass fuck logic when it is in his interest. For example, there was a time when man believed it was moral to own human beings. That is man ass fucking logic. Unless of course you believe they were morally justified in owning humans, do you?
man determines his own standards.

And FYI logic as we know is man made. Logic is nothing but man's attempt to analyze his own reasoning process.

We discarded slavery as our societies evolved because the people who believed slavery was not justifiable outnumbered the people who thought it was.
So you could determine that fucking little kids was moral?

I wouldn't but I'm sure some cultures and societies have in the past
And they were wrong. But in your world you would excuse it because you believe morals can be anything man says.
I wouldn't excuse it.

I have been raised in a society that finds child molestation to be reprehensible. That does not mean that there haven't been societies that didn't find child molestation reprehensible.

You have no understanding of history, anthropology or sociology.
You would have zero basis it to oppose it because according to you morals are just opinions. So what makes your opinion any better than anyone else's? It's the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

I oppose it because I am a product of my society and my thoughts, behaviors , morals and ethics are part of that conditioning.

And where did I say my opinion was better than anyone else?

You're the one who feels threatened by a differing opinion since you have resorted to ad hominem attacks after my first post here.

BTW what do the tenets of logic say regarding ad hominem alltacks?
You oppose it because it upsets your delicate sensibilities. You oppose it because it threatens your core beliefs. You oppose it because you understand the implications of absolute truth.
 
What you say is good or bad might not be considered good or bad by someone else.

So you're saying that an absolute, universally objective standard of morality doesn't exist?
correct.

Morals have changed over time as humans and societies have evolved
No. Man's perception of right and wrong can change over time because man is subjective. Logic is not subjective. Morals are based upon logic.
Morals are created by humans therefore they cannot be universal
No, dummy. Logic determines what standards are. Standards exist for logical reasons. Man is subjective and can ass fuck logic when it is in his interest. For example, there was a time when man believed it was moral to own human beings. That is man ass fucking logic. Unless of course you believe they were morally justified in owning humans, do you?
man determines his own standards.

And FYI logic as we know is man made. Logic is nothing but man's attempt to analyze his own reasoning process.

We discarded slavery as our societies evolved because the people who believed slavery was not justifiable outnumbered the people who thought it was.
So you could determine that fucking little kids was moral?

I wouldn't but I'm sure some cultures and societies have in the past
And they were wrong. But in your world you would excuse it because you believe morals can be anything man says.
I wouldn't excuse it.

I have been raised in a society that finds child molestation to be reprehensible. That does not mean that there haven't been societies that didn't find child molestation reprehensible.

You have no understanding of history, anthropology or sociology.
You would have zero basis it to oppose it because according to you morals are just opinions. So what makes your opinion any better than anyone else's? It's the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

I oppose it because I am a product of my society and my thoughts, behaviors , morals and ethics are part of that conditioning.

And where did I say my opinion was better than anyone else?

You're the one who feels threatened by a differing opinion since you have resorted to ad hominem attacks after my first post here.

BTW what do the tenets of logic say regarding ad hominem alltacks?
My point is that if you believe morals are just opinions instead of standards which exist for logical reasons then you have no basis to think your opinions are any better than anyone else's. Ergo you have no basis in logic to oppose anyone else's opinions of right and wrong.
I never said they were just opinions you said that.

I said that morals change over time as societies change over time.

So unless you want to stop telling me what I said and ignore what I actually say then this discussion will be worthless.
 
What you say is good or bad might not be considered good or bad by someone else.

So you're saying that an absolute, universally objective standard of morality doesn't exist?
correct.

Morals have changed over time as humans and societies have evolved
No. Man's perception of right and wrong can change over time because man is subjective. Logic is not subjective. Morals are based upon logic.
Morals are created by humans therefore they cannot be universal
No, dummy. Logic determines what standards are. Standards exist for logical reasons. Man is subjective and can ass fuck logic when it is in his interest. For example, there was a time when man believed it was moral to own human beings. That is man ass fucking logic. Unless of course you believe they were morally justified in owning humans, do you?
man determines his own standards.

And FYI logic as we know is man made. Logic is nothing but man's attempt to analyze his own reasoning process.

We discarded slavery as our societies evolved because the people who believed slavery was not justifiable outnumbered the people who thought it was.
So you could determine that fucking little kids was moral?

I wouldn't but I'm sure some cultures and societies have in the past
And they were wrong. But in your world you would excuse it because you believe morals can be anything man says.
I wouldn't excuse it.

I have been raised in a society that finds child molestation to be reprehensible. That does not mean that there haven't been societies that didn't find child molestation reprehensible.

You have no understanding of history, anthropology or sociology.
You would have zero basis it to oppose it because according to you morals are just opinions. So what makes your opinion any better than anyone else's? It's the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

I oppose it because I am a product of my society and my thoughts, behaviors , morals and ethics are part of that conditioning.

And where did I say my opinion was better than anyone else?

You're the one who feels threatened by a differing opinion since you have resorted to ad hominem attacks after my first post here.

BTW what do the tenets of logic say regarding ad hominem alltacks?
The tenant of logic say that some stupid people will remain stupid until they are made fun of. See Thomas Jefferson.
 
What you say is good or bad might not be considered good or bad by someone else.

So you're saying that an absolute, universally objective standard of morality doesn't exist?
correct.

Morals have changed over time as humans and societies have evolved
No. Man's perception of right and wrong can change over time because man is subjective. Logic is not subjective. Morals are based upon logic.
Morals are created by humans therefore they cannot be universal
No, dummy. Logic determines what standards are. Standards exist for logical reasons. Man is subjective and can ass fuck logic when it is in his interest. For example, there was a time when man believed it was moral to own human beings. That is man ass fucking logic. Unless of course you believe they were morally justified in owning humans, do you?
man determines his own standards.

And FYI logic as we know is man made. Logic is nothing but man's attempt to analyze his own reasoning process.

We discarded slavery as our societies evolved because the people who believed slavery was not justifiable outnumbered the people who thought it was.
So you could determine that fucking little kids was moral?

I wouldn't but I'm sure some cultures and societies have in the past
And they were wrong. But in your world you would excuse it because you believe morals can be anything man says.
I wouldn't excuse it.

I have been raised in a society that finds child molestation to be reprehensible. That does not mean that there haven't been societies that didn't find child molestation reprehensible.

You have no understanding of history, anthropology or sociology.
You would have zero basis it to oppose it because according to you morals are just opinions. So what makes your opinion any better than anyone else's? It's the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

I oppose it because I am a product of my society and my thoughts, behaviors , morals and ethics are part of that conditioning.

And where did I say my opinion was better than anyone else?

You're the one who feels threatened by a differing opinion since you have resorted to ad hominem attacks after my first post here.

BTW what do the tenets of logic say regarding ad hominem alltacks?
My point is that if you believe morals are just opinions instead of standards which exist for logical reasons then you have no basis to think your opinions are any better than anyone else's. Ergo you have no basis in logic to oppose anyone else's opinions of right and wrong.
I never said they were just opinions you said that.

I said that morals change over time as societies change over time.

So unless you want to stop telling me what I said and ignore what I actually say then this discussion will be worthless.
If they can change then they can be anything man wants them to be ergo they are opinions and not firm rules rooted in logic.
 
So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.
And that is a big if.

There is absolutely no evidence of some universal code of behavior. And for there to be one then there would have to be an absolute authority that authored that moral code.

There is none
Well said.

I’m always uncomfortable when the hyper-religious choose to lecture others on “morality”. We could get into the utterly chilling lack of ethics and morality that is evoked by the treatment of people under religious authoritarianism - considering that bastion of enlightenment such as the Christian Europe during the Dark Ages - but that’s a thread unto itself.

The sense of self-sacrifice, nurturing, decision making and making “moral” choices is a higher brain function and it's seen in comparably lesser degrees in lesser animals. This in and of itself is enough to suggest that "morality" is a natural phenomenon of higher brain functions. A measure of language, nurturing, survival, industry, and even environmental control, all can be attributed to animals lesser on the sentience strat than man.


Ultimately, I would propose that morality involves decision making (or making a choice), where decision making is accomplished with a cognizant awareness of consequences. The mammalian sense of nurturing the young is not morality, it’s a function of evolution that seeks to preserve the species.

I suppose what defines morality is our expectations and choices as to how we extend such gestures as compassion, empathy, fairness, etc.

Going further, I don't think all moral impulses are learned. I think left to our own devices in a world devoid of civilization, we wouldn't blindly and blatantly kill, we likely wouldn't mate upwards with our parents. Fitness for survival would likely preclude this from happening as we would likely nurture our babies and try to protect them.

If we were to posit a world where humans are stripped of their morality, they’re still going to behave in ways that favor survival, not only of self but of the species, whether that boils down to a nuclear family or a tribe.
Your thinking is the same as the communists thinking, dear.
 
So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.
And that is a big if.

There is absolutely no evidence of some universal code of behavior. And for there to be one then there would have to be an absolute authority that authored that moral code.

There is none
Dude, I just showed it to you. Logic is universal and logic determines what standards are. Not some fucked up selfish man who wants to own people or fuck little kids. Logic tells you that those things are wrong and that if you do them there will be predictable consequences.

You showed me no proof that logic exists outside the minds of humans.
Everything is manifested in mind. So by your logic nothing exists apart from human mind. That just isn't so though. Ask any great scientist and they will tell you that they did not invent anything, they discovered it. Ergo it exists apart from human mind.

You are not a stupid man, so please stop acting like one. Lest you become a militant atheist like Hollie.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

For one logic is not a physical thing that can exist outside of the mind.
It's the logical conclusion of your beliefs.

So did Einstein invent E=mc^2 or did he discover it?
No it is your conclusion
No. You just aren't intelligent enough to understand the consequences of your beliefs.

Did Einstein invent E=mc^2 or did he discover it? If he discovered it then it existed before mind existed. Same as logic.

Once again you are comparing logic to a physical object.

You cannot compare a mental construct to a physical object or to the properties of a physical object. Light matter and energy are all physical things and Einstein saw a relationship between them. That relationship has existed since matter, light and energy have existed because those are physical things.

Logic is not a physical thing, you cannot measure it and it doesn't exist if there isn't an intellect to codify it.
 

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