CDZ Affordable Housing and what to do about it

[iamwhatiseem]

This is a CDZ thread, and the posters will abide by the rules, I hope. (The Clean Debate Zone is to be used for the clean debating of Government Policies, Candidates, Current News and Events. No personal attacks, name calling, flaming etc is allowed in this section.)

Proposed increases by HUD to "the amount low-income households" should pay in the future will come out on Wednesday.

To rent a two-bedroom home, on average, you would need to earn $21.21 per hour as a full-time worker in the United States. Certain states like Colorado, Alaska, New York, and California are higher, much higher in the latter two cases. D.C. is over $33 per hour per worker.

"A new report from the National Low Income Housing Coalition shows what an hourly worker needs to make to afford a two-bedroom rental home — without paying more than 30% of their income — in each state, plus Washington, DC and Puerto Rico. Depending on the location, the hourly wages required for housing range from $9.68 (in Puerto Rico) to $35.20 (in Hawaii) for people working 40 hours per week, 52 weeks per year"

. . . . "The move — which will require Congressional approval — would affect more than 4.5 million families relying on federal housing assistance. If passed, the legislation would likely make it even harder for low-income households to make rent."

I believe that people should pay their own way as much as possible, but also that We the People should take care of our own as well.

The report does not say how much the increases will be. I will withhold my own response until I can find those figures, and If any of you should respond.

Error | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

It would seem that everyone is really missing the point here. Why is it that housing is so expensive? Heck, why is it that land is so expensive? Answer:Because people are willing to pay that much. Also, because the American Taxpayer is (and has been) subsidising much of this through "low-income" assistance, tax breaks to attract business, subsidies for business, tax/building/environmental/regulatory laws and red tape that make it easier/cheaper to build on "virgin" land (rather than renovating/re-building), etc.

We can talk until "the cows come home" all on their own about how to "fix" this. Until we define and build a consensus about what the underlying problem(s) is/are, we are wasting our time and effort. I am not looking to place blame, point fingers, or deride any person, group or ideology. I am simply saying: "We have got to define what the underly problem is, if we are to have any hope of fixing it."

To look at it another way: Most of us have a car/truck that we "own" and are responsible to maintain. Say you have a tire that keeps wearing out faster than the others. Do you a)just keep going to the same shop that sells you a new tire, or b) go somewhere else that will define and correct the underlying cause of the rapid wear? Of course you would choose (b), anyone would. So, why do we keep putting new tires on and not figuring out why they are wearing out so fast when it comes to issues like this? What will it take for people to understand that the same old, "well if we just implement MY idea it'll be all okay" thinking just isn't working. We need new leadership (on ALL levels) that are willing to explore the issues to find the underlying cause, regardless of what that is. Then, and only then, will we be able to find the solutions that will be effective.

Well, I agree with most of what you are saying....but the causation of most of economic woes for the masses is Modern Corporatism.
Corporatism/Globalism is THE driver for the increasing wealth gap/concentration. It is also responsible for the vast majority of modern slave labor that replaced jobs that previously paid good wages. It is responsible for the now complete corruption of the Federal government, which has turned our country into a Corporate Plutocracy. Anyone who still thinks America is a Democratic Republic is just not paying attention.

I don't think it's that simple. While Corporatism and Globalism are contributing factors, it would seem that there is more to the story than that. An example:

So that begs the questions of "why?", and "what else contributes?" How about education?

As even the casual observer (I am one) can see, there are multiple contributing factors one must look at to get a full view of the issue.

I can appreciate what you are saying, however that is all still due to corporatism.
In any well rounded economy, there needs to be jobs for the masses. Jobs that do not require higher learning or higher skills.
We had that. We no longer have it.

 

[Flash]

It is hard for Americans to buy needed family things like housing when the cost of government is so high in this country. The combined cost of Federal, State and Local government is about 40% of the GDP. In most working family households the cost of government is the largest single expense. Larger than housing, food, transportation or anything else.

Not actually.
The bottom 45% pay no Federal Income Taxes....or actually have a negative tax burden, they get more back than they paid in.

There are many more Federal, State and Local taxes other than the Income Tax. They may not pay income tax but they directly and indirectly pay other taxes. For instance, you may be poor and not have a car and not directly pay a fuel tax but you pay it indirectly anytime you buy something that has transportation. The same with corporate tax. All corporate taxes are paid for through revenues generated by the sale of the goods or services.

That 40% of the GDP that is the cost of combined government is one hellva burden on the American people. No wonder we have to be making at least $40K a year in order to buy a cheap two bedroom home. It wasn't that way back in the 1950s when the combined cost of government was less than 20% of the GDP.

 

[Toronado3800]

What the left simply cannot understand.......

Wages overwhelmingly depend on the companies profits.
Profits overwhelmingly depend on price vs. cost of production/service.
A products/service Price overwhelmingly depends on consumers willingness to spend.

In other words, the price of a product is set by a market.
Companies cannot simply raise their prices because they feel like it. Unless of course you are Apple.
And if you are in a business where the market only allows teensy profits - you can't exactly start paying your employees whatever they want you to pay them.

So if I work for an absolutely hugely profitable company I'll make tons of money?

There is a supply and demand thing going on and its really for the best. Maybe I'm not the left. Maybe taunting "da left" is out of style. But I don't think the profitability of the company has tons to do with what its employees make unless big government is helping labor unions along or there is some shortage of labor.

 

[2aguy]

This is a CDZ thread, and the posters will abide by the rules, I hope. (The Clean Debate Zone is to be used for the clean debating of Government Policies, Candidates, Current News and Events. No personal attacks, name calling, flaming etc is allowed in this section.)

Proposed increases by HUD to "the amount low-income households" should pay in the future will come out on Wednesday.

To rent a two-bedroom home, on average, you would need to earn $21.21 per hour as a full-time worker in the United States. Certain states like Colorado, Alaska, New York, and California are higher, much higher in the latter two cases. D.C. is over $33 per hour per worker.

"A new report from the National Low Income Housing Coalition shows what an hourly worker needs to make to afford a two-bedroom rental home — without paying more than 30% of their income — in each state, plus Washington, DC and Puerto Rico. Depending on the location, the hourly wages required for housing range from $9.68 (in Puerto Rico) to $35.20 (in Hawaii) for people working 40 hours per week, 52 weeks per year"

. . . . "The move — which will require Congressional approval — would affect more than 4.5 million families relying on federal housing assistance. If passed, the legislation would likely make it even harder for low-income households to make rent."

I believe that people should pay their own way as much as possible, but also that We the People should take care of our own as well.

The report does not say how much the increases will be. I will withhold my own response until I can find those figures, and If any of you should respond.

Error | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Allow people to build more housing, that lowers the price.

 

[2aguy]

Left wing zoning laws keep the prices up...

This One Intersection Explains Why Housing Is So Expensive In San Francisco

As Matt Yglesias pointed out at Slate last year, the city seems to have primarily concerned itself with policies that deal with the housing situation by subsidizing and preserving the existing stock of housing available, through rent control and tenant's rights laws.

DEAR NEW YORKERS: Here's Why Your Rent Is So Ridiculously High

2. Zoning rules inhibit supply.Of course, you can get more apartments on a given amount of land by building taller buildings closer together. And compared to most cities, New York is very dense. But it could be even denser.

3. Rent control raises your rent if you're not rent controlled. While the average rent for available apartments in New York City is now over $3,000, the U.S. Census Bureau says renters in New York City were only paying a median of $1,125 in 2011. What gives?

 

[Toronado3800]

This is a CDZ thread, and the posters will abide by the rules, I hope. (The Clean Debate Zone is to be used for the clean debating of Government Policies, Candidates, Current News and Events. No personal attacks, name calling, flaming etc is allowed in this section.)

Proposed increases by HUD to "the amount low-income households" should pay in the future will come out on Wednesday.

To rent a two-bedroom home, on average, you would need to earn $21.21 per hour as a full-time worker in the United States. Certain states like Colorado, Alaska, New York, and California are higher, much higher in the latter two cases. D.C. is over $33 per hour per worker.

"A new report from the National Low Income Housing Coalition shows what an hourly worker needs to make to afford a two-bedroom rental home — without paying more than 30% of their income — in each state, plus Washington, DC and Puerto Rico. Depending on the location, the hourly wages required for housing range from $9.68 (in Puerto Rico) to $35.20 (in Hawaii) for people working 40 hours per week, 52 weeks per year"

. . . . "The move — which will require Congressional approval — would affect more than 4.5 million families relying on federal housing assistance. If passed, the legislation would likely make it even harder for low-income households to make rent."

I believe that people should pay their own way as much as possible, but also that We the People should take care of our own as well.

The report does not say how much the increases will be. I will withhold my own response until I can find those figures, and If any of you should respond.

Error | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Allow people to build more housing, that lowers the price.

That is absolutely correct.

Here we don't have a shortage of housing though. Just some areas people want to live and others they don't. Building more here devalues existing houses. No one likes to put on new siding or repave a driveway. That is when you need a new home here. Go west young man!

Then consider hippie Republican Governor electing California. A good part of the state is not suitable to hold more humans w/o big government projects. Much of the southwest is similar. One part of me figures if people want to pay $$$ water bills so be it. Another part thinks, "why am I reading about problems with hurricanes in New Orleans again or water fights in Colorado". Until technology improves or folks admit they got to pony up for water pipes no more people allowed.

More expensive infrastructure and more homes reliant on complex infrastructure leaves us a less competitive and more vulnerable country also.

So I agree and disagree with building more houses.....Is there a way of encouraging people to build more modern houses where old vacated ghetto neighborhoods are w/o starting another huge government program?

 

[oldsoul]

This is a CDZ thread, and the posters will abide by the rules, I hope. (The Clean Debate Zone is to be used for the clean debating of Government Policies, Candidates, Current News and Events. No personal attacks, name calling, flaming etc is allowed in this section.)

Proposed increases by HUD to "the amount low-income households" should pay in the future will come out on Wednesday.

To rent a two-bedroom home, on average, you would need to earn $21.21 per hour as a full-time worker in the United States. Certain states like Colorado, Alaska, New York, and California are higher, much higher in the latter two cases. D.C. is over $33 per hour per worker.

"A new report from the National Low Income Housing Coalition shows what an hourly worker needs to make to afford a two-bedroom rental home — without paying more than 30% of their income — in each state, plus Washington, DC and Puerto Rico. Depending on the location, the hourly wages required for housing range from $9.68 (in Puerto Rico) to $35.20 (in Hawaii) for people working 40 hours per week, 52 weeks per year"

. . . . "The move — which will require Congressional approval — would affect more than 4.5 million families relying on federal housing assistance. If passed, the legislation would likely make it even harder for low-income households to make rent."

I believe that people should pay their own way as much as possible, but also that We the People should take care of our own as well.

The report does not say how much the increases will be. I will withhold my own response until I can find those figures, and If any of you should respond.

Error | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

It would seem that everyone is really missing the point here. Why is it that housing is so expensive? Heck, why is it that land is so expensive? Answer:Because people are willing to pay that much. Also, because the American Taxpayer is (and has been) subsidising much of this through "low-income" assistance, tax breaks to attract business, subsidies for business, tax/building/environmental/regulatory laws and red tape that make it easier/cheaper to build on "virgin" land (rather than renovating/re-building), etc.

We can talk until "the cows come home" all on their own about how to "fix" this. Until we define and build a consensus about what the underlying problem(s) is/are, we are wasting our time and effort. I am not looking to place blame, point fingers, or deride any person, group or ideology. I am simply saying: "We have got to define what the underly problem is, if we are to have any hope of fixing it."

To look at it another way: Most of us have a car/truck that we "own" and are responsible to maintain. Say you have a tire that keeps wearing out faster than the others. Do you a)just keep going to the same shop that sells you a new tire, or b) go somewhere else that will define and correct the underlying cause of the rapid wear? Of course you would choose (b), anyone would. So, why do we keep putting new tires on and not figuring out why they are wearing out so fast when it comes to issues like this? What will it take for people to understand that the same old, "well if we just implement MY idea it'll be all okay" thinking just isn't working. We need new leadership (on ALL levels) that are willing to explore the issues to find the underlying cause, regardless of what that is. Then, and only then, will we be able to find the solutions that will be effective.

Well, I agree with most of what you are saying....but the causation of most of economic woes for the masses is Modern Corporatism.
Corporatism/Globalism is THE driver for the increasing wealth gap/concentration. It is also responsible for the vast majority of modern slave labor that replaced jobs that previously paid good wages. It is responsible for the now complete corruption of the Federal government, which has turned our country into a Corporate Plutocracy. Anyone who still thinks America is a Democratic Republic is just not paying attention.

I don't think it's that simple. While Corporatism and Globalism are contributing factors, it would seem that there is more to the story than that. An example:

So that begs the questions of "why?", and "what else contributes?" How about education?

As even the casual observer (I am one) can see, there are multiple contributing factors one must look at to get a full view of the issue.

I can appreciate what you are saying, however that is all still due to corporatism.
In any well rounded economy, there needs to be jobs for the masses. Jobs that do not require higher learning or higher skills.
We had that. We no longer have it.

I can appreciate what you are saying, however that is all still due to corporatism.

So, the difference between "white wealth" and "black wealth" is because of "corporatism"? The difference in income between those who have an education and those who do not is "corporatism"? Come on, seriously. Does your plumber work for a corporation? How about your local "handyman"? Maybe your mechanic? I doubt it. Even the mechanics at the dealerships, generally, don't work for corporations (at least not publicly traded ones), most dealerships are privately owned or part of an LLC. These are but a few of the examples that seem to put holes in your argument. I would like to see the numbers, and where you are getting them. Maybe then I will be convinced.

That said, I agree with your next statement, "In any well rounded economy, there needs to be jobs for the masses." This is quite true, and there are, just not the old style "get a job at the factory/mill/mine/etc. your dad/uncle/whoever works at right out of, or even before, graduation from high school. Today's citizen demands a higher wage so we can buy the things our fathers/mothers only dreamed of having. Therefore, companies are requiring more of them. That, often times, requires skills/knowledge one does not generally get in high school. So, it's really a trade-off. If you want higher income, you have to do the work to EARN it.