A Year Since MH-17 Tragedy

[Tehon]

Your opinion highlights the absurdity of the UN resolution. If there was more evidence than what has been produced for magazine articles then the perpetrators would be brought to justice without the need for such theatrics. Thank you. Now, maybe Camp can also see this point and stop worrying about Ron Paul's popularity, especially since it is completely irrelevant.

You are welcome.
But you seem not to understand my opinion correctly, I am afraid. The UN resolution itself isn’t an absurdity; the absurdity is the voting system in the UN Security Council.

Sorry but I was using your post to make a point to Camp, it seemed like something even he could understand. Apparently I was wrong. Anyway, yeah the UN resolution is absurd, there is no way it was going to pass, everyone knows this and it only serves to reinforce the opinions of people who's minds are already made up.

 

[ESay]

Anyway, yeah the UN resolution is absurd, there is no way it was going to pass, everyone knows this and it only serves to reinforce the opinions of people who's minds are already made up.

I think that this case (Russian veto on the resolution) will also serve more significant role in the future. It will be one of the justifications why the UN Security Council should be reformed and why the right of veto should be partially scrapped.
But I am not sure yet whether this partial scrapping is in the interest of the Western countries.

 

[Camp]

Your opinion highlights the absurdity of the UN resolution. If there was more evidence than what has been produced for magazine articles then the perpetrators would be brought to justice without the need for such theatrics. Thank you. Now, maybe Camp can also see this point and stop worrying about Ron Paul's popularity, especially since it is completely irrelevant.

You are welcome.
But you seem not to understand my opinion correctly, I am afraid. The UN resolution itself isn’t an absurdity; the absurdity is the voting system in the UN Security Council.

Sorry but I was using your post to make a point to Camp, it seemed like something even he could understand. Apparently I was wrong. Anyway, yeah the UN resolution is absurd, there is no way it was going to pass, everyone knows this and it only serves to reinforce the opinions of people who's minds are already made up.

The resolution did pass. It was vetoed by Russia. 11 members of the 15 member council voted for the draft resolution. 3 members abstained from voting. Russia stood alone in blocking the resolution. Whether the voting system or construction of the Security Council is absurd or not is a matter of opinion. Russia stands alone in blocking the system by which the international community has suggested the MH-17 crash be further investigated.

 

[Tehon]

Your opinion highlights the absurdity of the UN resolution. If there was more evidence than what has been produced for magazine articles then the perpetrators would be brought to justice without the need for such theatrics. Thank you. Now, maybe Camp can also see this point and stop worrying about Ron Paul's popularity, especially since it is completely irrelevant.

You are welcome.
But you seem not to understand my opinion correctly, I am afraid. The UN resolution itself isn’t an absurdity; the absurdity is the voting system in the UN Security Council.

Sorry but I was using your post to make a point to Camp, it seemed like something even he could understand. Apparently I was wrong. Anyway, yeah the UN resolution is absurd, there is no way it was going to pass, everyone knows this and it only serves to reinforce the opinions of people who's minds are already made up.

The resolution did pass. It was vetoed by Russia. 11 members of the 15 member council voted for the draft resolution. 3 members abstained from voting. Russia stood alone in blocking the resolution. Whether the voting system or construction of the Security Council is absurd or not is a matter of opinion. Russia stands alone in blocking the system by which the international community has suggested the MH-17 crash be further investigated.

United Nations Official Document resolution 2166 has already passed with the support of Russia. What is the point of this new resolution(charade) when 2166 has not yet to been fully complied with by the West and Ukraine. I believe there is still unresolved issues with tower communications in the possession of Ukraine and also satellite imagery in the possession of the US.
You have no credibility on this issue.

 

[Sonc]

There are also eye witnesses who saw the missile launch from separatist territory along with a photo of it's vapor trail.
Can we see this photo?

It is in the link I provided in post #3.

Another sky

 

[Sonc]

It will be one of the justifications why the UN Security Council should be reformed

Carefully selected words.
There was one man offering too

 

[Sonc]

someone can explain this?

 

[Sonc]

input

output

Tataaam!

 

[Sonc]

why no one has condemned the US government for what happened September 11?



i live in Arlington and was less than 2miles from the Pentagon during 9/11. THAT WAS NOT AN AIRPLANE THAT HIT THE PENTAGON
...
just after crush , I dont see any debris
....
and yes/ no airplane...it was a Tomahawk Missile.

 

[Camp]

Your opinion highlights the absurdity of the UN resolution. If there was more evidence than what has been produced for magazine articles then the perpetrators would be brought to justice without the need for such theatrics. Thank you. Now, maybe Camp can also see this point and stop worrying about Ron Paul's popularity, especially since it is completely irrelevant.

You are welcome.
But you seem not to understand my opinion correctly, I am afraid. The UN resolution itself isn’t an absurdity; the absurdity is the voting system in the UN Security Council.

Sorry but I was using your post to make a point to Camp, it seemed like something even he could understand. Apparently I was wrong. Anyway, yeah the UN resolution is absurd, there is no way it was going to pass, everyone knows this and it only serves to reinforce the opinions of people who's minds are already made up.

The resolution did pass. It was vetoed by Russia. 11 members of the 15 member council voted for the draft resolution. 3 members abstained from voting. Russia stood alone in blocking the resolution. Whether the voting system or construction of the Security Council is absurd or not is a matter of opinion. Russia stands alone in blocking the system by which the international community has suggested the MH-17 crash be further investigated.

United Nations Official Document resolution 2166 has already passed with the support of Russia. What is the point of this new resolution(charade) when 2166 has not yet to been fully complied with by the West and Ukraine. I believe there is still unresolved issues with tower communications in the possession of Ukraine and also satellite imagery in the possession of the US.
You have no credibility on this issue.

UN Resolution 2166 does not have the power to conduct public hearings and formal official testimonies. In addition, 2166 was long ago violated by Russian supported separatist by ignoring portions of the resolution that demanded access to the crash site and witnesses. Resolution 2166 was feel good resolution passed immediately after the incident that promised an investigation. The investigation has gone about as far as it can. The investigators and international community are the ones who are insisting it is now time to use the official status and powers of a UN Tribunal to compel witnesses to testify publicly in front of a tribunal with official powers.
Why do you believe there is an unresolved issue about about tower communications in possession of Ukraine? That is maybe a good reason for a tribunal. Let an official tribunal get to the bottom of that because it keeps coming up. There is no hidden communication. It is nothing more than a made up story. So, let is be aired in public and persons involved with possibly having knowledge of this communication testify and be questioned. And what do you know about satellite imagery that makes you believe there is imagery that has not already been provided by US? You think the US should have some kind of imagery from a satellite of BUK being launched and hitting aircraft? Maybe we should ask why Russia does not have this imagery.

 

[Stratford57]

Your opinion highlights the absurdity of the UN resolution. If there was more evidence than what has been produced for magazine articles then the perpetrators would be brought to justice without the need for such theatrics. Thank you. Now, maybe Camp can also see this point and stop worrying about Ron Paul's popularity, especially since it is completely irrelevant.

You are welcome.
But you seem not to understand my opinion correctly, I am afraid. The UN resolution itself isn’t an absurdity; the absurdity is the voting system in the UN Security Council.

Sorry but I was using your post to make a point to Camp, it seemed like something even he could understand. Apparently I was wrong. Anyway, yeah the UN resolution is absurd, there is no way it was going to pass, everyone knows this and it only serves to reinforce the opinions of people who's minds are already made up.

The resolution did pass. It was vetoed by Russia. 11 members of the 15 member council voted for the draft resolution. 3 members abstained from voting. Russia stood alone in blocking the resolution. Whether the voting system or construction of the Security Council is absurd or not is a matter of opinion. Russia stands alone in blocking the system by which the international community has suggested the MH-17 crash be further investigated.

Camp, do you know the difference between the words “investigation” and ”tribunal”? Russia needs clean investigation more than anybody else, because it was blamed for the serious crime without any evidence been presented.

Looks like the USA with the help of official Kiev are playing a dishonest game against Russia, hiding some cards up the sleeves [Ukrainian air traffic controller communication and US satellite pictures], and just want to distract the world’s attention from themselves. To me, if you want to play a clean game, lay all your cards on the table!

 

[Tehon]

UN Resolution 2166 does not have the power to conduct public hearings and formal official testimonies. In addition, 2166 was long ago violated by Russian supported separatist by ignoring portions of the resolution that demanded access to the crash site and witnesses. Resolution 2166 was feel good resolution passed immediately after the incident that promised an investigation. The investigation has gone about as far as it can. The investigators and international community are the ones who are insisting it is now time to use the official status and powers of a UN Tribunal to compel witnesses to testify publicly in front of a tribunal with official powers.
Why do you believe there is an unresolved issue about about tower communications in possession of Ukraine? That is maybe a good reason for a tribunal. Let an official tribunal get to the bottom of that because it keeps coming up. There is no hidden communication. It is nothing more than a made up story. So, let is be aired in public and persons involved with possibly having knowledge of this communication testify and be questioned. And what do you know about satellite imagery that makes you believe there is imagery that has not already been provided by US? You think the US should have some kind of imagery from a satellite of BUK being launched and hitting aircraft? Maybe we should ask why Russia does not have this imagery.

UN 2166 calls for full and thorough investigations into the crash. There are two investigations ongoing. The Dutch Safety Board which is looking into the details of the crash and the Joint Investigative Team (JIT) which is looking into the criminality aspects of the crash. Neither investigation has reached it's conclusion.
Russia has released satellite images purporting to show the movement of Ukrainian BUK missile batteries. They have also released radar images purporting to show jet fighters in the area of MH17 . Are either of these going to be addressed by the (JIT)?

From the Russian perspective, what has transpired in the public arena thus far amounts to a witch hunt. There is no reason to think a tribunal would deviate from this. No nation on earth would willingly accept this, we know the hypocrites in Washington and Ukraine wouldn't. Russia's veto of the tribunal isn't an admission of guilt it is a symptom of mistrust.

 

[Camp]

Many ways to evade a formal setting for getting to the bottom of the MH 17 investigation are being presented. At present time the investigators complain they are not able to question witnesses and were limited in inspecting crash site and still limited and denied because of Russian backed separatist. What we have is confusion, speculation and propaganda from all sides. If Russia has an alternative way to conduct investigation it must convince other members of the Security Council to support such an idea and bring it up for a vote. It appears the only other option Russia has is to complain Russia is the victim and being bullied and picked on by the Security Council. Russia must provide a way to bring witnesses in front of a formal court of inquiry to testify. Otherwise the veto is just a way to prevent investigation from going forward and reaching a conclusion.
The strongest proof that separatist shot down MH 17 with a Russian supplied BUK are the intercepts and recordings of specific separatist and officials in Russia and social media postings immediately following the shoot down. Those individuals have got to be questioned under oath in public in a formal setting. Both the US, Ukraine, Russia and everyone else must be obligated by public formal request to provide their evidence for inspection and evaluation.

 

[Stratford57]

Both the US, Ukraine, Russia and everyone else must be obligated by public formal request to provide their evidence for inspection and evaluation.

That should have been done a year ago. But even after a year there are no sings for that to happen. And that's why "the investigation" looks more like distracting attention from official Kiev and demonizing official Moscow. And it looks like certain people are trying to push their geopolitical interests, using the tragedy of 298 human lives and their families.

 

[Camp]

Both the US, Ukraine, Russia and everyone else must be obligated by public formal request to provide their evidence for inspection and evaluation.

That should have been done a year ago. But even after a year there are no sings for that to happen. And that's why "the investigation" looks more like distracting attention from official Kiev and demonizing official Moscow.

An assumption was made that cooperation would be implemented. That has not really happened. One assumption was that Russia had the power to compel separatist to cooperate. They have not cooperated and Russia can not be blamed for causing the separatist to be uncooperative. One problem for Russia is that the guys on the other end of the phone intercepts were in Russia and in the Russian military of intelligence service. So why haven't investigators been permitted to question them? These questions can go back and forth endlessly. That is why a tribunal is needed.
Russia would have a key and a major roll in naming members of tribunal and Ukraine would have to answer just like anyone else. Kiev would be under suspicion and "on trial" as much as separatist or Russia.

 

[Tehon]

So Camp wants tribunals set up to corroborate the validity of social media posts and to prosecute individuals based on them. If one was to presume the social media posts of Strelkov to be legit and an admission of guilt (I don't) then it would appear as though MH17 was not the actual target. If MH17 was not the target then it was an accident not a criminal act. Assuming the above is true, does anyone really believe that Washington wants to set this precedence on how to deal with civilian casualties on the battlefield?

 

[ESay]

An assumption was made that cooperation would be implemented. That has not really happened. One assumption was that Russia had the power to compel separatist to cooperate. They have not cooperated

I don’t agree with you in this aspect, unfortunately. I think that the rebels have cooperated rather than the opposite. They handed over the black boxes to the Malaysians; they loaded the debris on the trucks and let them to be removed from the area; they haven’t prevented the investigators from working in the area, moreover I know that the investigators have come to the area several times during the last year (the last visit was in the early June, unless I am mistaken) and I haven’t read that they are complaining about the obstacles.

That is what confuses me the most in this case.

 

[Camp]

So Camp wants tribunals set up to corroborate the validity of social media posts and to prosecute individuals based on them. If one was to presume the social media posts of Strelkov to be legit and an admission of guilt (I don't) then it would appear as though MH17 was not the actual target. If MH17 was not the target then it was an accident not a criminal act. Assuming the above is true, does anyone really believe that Washington wants to set this precedence on how to deal with civilian casualties on the battlefield?

I did not say the Strelkov social media post were legit or proved anything. Strelkov deserves the right to explain or deny. Investigators need to ask him and other involved persons questions. The air traffic controllers in Ukraine need to be questioned in the same manner, as do commanders of Ukraine units in possession of BUK systems that were stationed anywhere near the area.

 

[Sonc]

"and Ukraine would have to answer just like anyone else."
Ok.


So what? How? They were condemned?
Or is not clear who inflicted airstrike?
Or was at least ATTEMPT ... to find the culprits?

 

[Camp]

"and Ukraine would have to answer just like anyone else."
Ok.


So what? How? They were condemned?
Or is not clear who inflicted airstrike?
Or was at least ATTEMPT ... to find the culprits?

Your video has nothing to do with MH17 and it is pure propaganda to insinuate one side is more guilty than another side for atrocities, mistakes, collateral damage and other incidents common in any war. That video could have been caused by separatist or Ukraine government forces or Ukraine anti separatist forces. It could have been a mistake by any of them. This is what happens when people take up arms and start a violent revolution to separate and cause civil war. A war is started and this is what happens in war. Blame those who promote taking up arms to make change.