A Tale of Two Surges

[rdean]

I didnt know the answer but I knew Obama would do exactly the wrong thing. And I wasn't disappointed.
What do you think he ought to do, since you seem to know everything about everything?

Funny, I remember when people on the left were saying similar things about Iraq and douchebags on the right were calling them un-American, cowards, and all sorts of other things.

Just be glad Iraq had a shit ton of oil money to finally let the dust settle.

At any rate, it doesn't matter what Obama does. By your own admission, you are going to oppose it. So what is the point?

I think we should reduce our footprint, start subsidizing the massive governmental infrastructure we have set up with taxpayers money (because the government will collapse otherwise) indefinitely, open up a trade route into Lahore if Pakistan will play ball (doubtful), and let the Afghans have their own country back.

At this point it is doubtful it would work, as the Afghans have had five years of empty promises from us.

Bush dicked up Afghanistan. We lost our momentum there years ago.

Quit putting words in my mouth.
Obama was bound to do the wrong thing. He picked the strategy with the least chance of winning, compounded his mistake by announcing a withdrawal date, and has lost the confidence of his own general, McChrystal.
So your solution is to ship tons of money to Afghanistan and hope that helps? Are you crazy? There are many problems there. Lack of U.S. money isn't one of them.
And blaming Bush is soooo last year. The place was fucked up long before Bush was even born.

Winning? What does that mean exactly?

 

[rdean]

i think you are more describing iran. iraq is a better place, because the free world helped them out. we could have helped iran, but obama blew it. why people continue to defend saddam is amazing

Article 5: The law is sovereign. The people are the source of authorities and its legitimacy, which the people shall exercise in a direct general secret ballot and through their constitutional institutions.

Unfortunately, that shows how little you know. They vote in Iran, the same as Iraq. In fact, the reason the countries are so close now is because they are nearly mirror images.

You can pull any quote out of the Iraqi constitution, but this is the only one that matters:

Article 2:

First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

Try to figure out why. Think, "Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation". No where in Islam does it say you can't vote.

Now, think about the Christian population in Iraq. It used to be around 1.4 million. Current estimates are 3 to 4 hundred thousand. The Republican Party is 90% white and mostly Christian. Have they made a mistake and supported the genocide of Iraqi Christians? If not, how has the population dropped by a million? That never would have happened without the American Right wing's involvement in Iraq.

Now the two most important questions:

"Where are those people now"?

"Who is responsible for them"?

They vote in Iran, the same as Iraq.


you're joking right ?

Iran elects on national level a head of government (the president), a legislature (the Majlis), and an "Assembly of Experts" (which elects the head of state, the Supreme Leader). Also City and Village Council elections are held every four years throughout the country. The president is elected for a four-year term by the people. The Parliament or Islamic Consultative Assembly (Majlis-e Shura-ye Eslami) has 290 members, elected for a four-year term in multi- and single-seat constituencies. Elections for the Assembly of Experts are held every six years. Mayors will be elected by popular vote for once in 2010. All candidates have to be approved by the Guardian Council.

Elections in Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Iraq:

Among the banned candidates 60% were Sunni Muslims and 40% were Shi'a[63] however all of the banned candidates are members of secular and liberal parties and not a single member of a Sunni or Shi'a religious party was banned.

Iraqi parliamentary election, 2010 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you see what I mean? Liberals and secular candidates are being banned. Only those acceptable to the clerics. Remember Article II from the Constitution.

In 5 years or less, Iraq will be EXACTLY like Iran. They are racing there now. And the Republicans did it.

 

[DaGoose]

There were plenty of good reasons.
Why did you vote for Democrats in 2006, 2008, and 2010 when they continued to send Americans into harm's way FOR NO GOOD REASON??
Is it because your union bosses told you Jump and you asked how high?

Ahhhh....the classic "I can't win this argument so I'm changing the subject" ploy.

C'mon now....I'm sure you can at least try. Here, let me get you started......

"I can justify the invasion and the deaths of our troops because _________________."

Because an Ideology has declared a war on us and our way of life. No matter where we are, no matter what we do, they will seek us out and harm us. Our choice was to fight them on our terms, in their back yard, rather than wait for it to hit us on their terms.

Had I a say in Afghan Policy, I would have worked on securing the population centers, and building within the secured areas, infrastructure, and a better quality of life. I would expand on the formulas that showed the best promise. My biggest problem is with a Constitution that does not reflect an understanding of Unalienable Rights, which is the Foundation of Equal Rights and Equal Protection.

And just how did this "ideology" declare war on us and how did they "hit us"?

 

[DaGoose]

Keep trying to obfuscate around the question. You fail. Admit it.

Nope. YOU'RE the one who failed the troops by supporting needless deaths. You can sure tell that theirs deaths mean nothing to you.

Keep trying to obfuscate around the question. You fail. Admit it.

Nope. YOU'RE the one who failed the troops by supporting needless deaths. You can sure tell that theirs deaths mean nothing to you.

 

[Intense]

Ahhhh....the classic "I can't win this argument so I'm changing the subject" ploy.

C'mon now....I'm sure you can at least try. Here, let me get you started......

"I can justify the invasion and the deaths of our troops because _________________."

Because an Ideology has declared a war on us and our way of life. No matter where we are, no matter what we do, they will seek us out and harm us. Our choice was to fight them on our terms, in their back yard, rather than wait for it to hit us on their terms.

Had I a say in Afghan Policy, I would have worked on securing the population centers, and building within the secured areas, infrastructure, and a better quality of life. I would expand on the formulas that showed the best promise. My biggest problem is with a Constitution that does not reflect an understanding of Unalienable Rights, which is the Foundation of Equal Rights and Equal Protection.

And just how did this "ideology" declare war on us and how did they "hit us"?

September 11, 2001 - Terrorists hijack four U.S. commercial airliners taking off from various locations in the United States in a coordinated suicide attack. In separate attacks, two of the airliners crash into the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York City, which catch fire and eventually collapse. A third airliner crashes into the Pentagon in Washington, DC, causing extensive damage. The fourth airliner, also believed to be heading towards Washington, DC, crashes outside Shanksville, PA., killing all 45 people on board. Casualty estimates from New York put the possible death toll close to 5,000, while as many as 200 people may have been lost at the Pentagon crash site.

Oct. 12, 2000 - A terrorist bomb damages the destroyer USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39.

Aug. 7, 1998 - Terrorist bombs destroy the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. In Nairobi, 12 Americans are among the 291 killed, and over 5,000 are wounded, including 6 Americans. In Dar es Salaam, one U.S. citizen is wounded among the 10 killed and 77 injured.

In response, on August 20 the United States attacked targets in Afghanistan and Sudan with over 75 cruise missiles fired from Navy ships in the Arabian and Red seas. About 60 Tomahawk cruise missiles were fired from warships in the Arabian Sea. Most struck six separate targets in a camp near Khost, Afghanistan. Simultaneously, about 20 cruise missiles were fired from U.S. ships in the Red Sea striking a factory in Khartoum, Sudan, which was suspected of producing components for making chemical weapons.

June 21, 1998 - Rocket-propelled grenades explode near the U.S. embassy in Beirut.

July 27, 1996 - A pipe bomb explodes during the Olympic games in Atlanta, killing one person and wounding 111.

June 25, 1996 - A bomb aboard a fuel truck explodes outside a U.S. air force installation in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. 19 U.S. military personnel are killed in the Khubar Towers housing facility, and 515 are wounded, including 240 Americans.

Nov. 13, 1995 - A car-bomb in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills seven people, five of them American military and civilian advisers for National Guard training. The "Tigers of the Gulf," "Islamist Movement for Change," and "Fighting Advocates of God" claim responsibility.

April 19, 1995 - A car bomb destroys the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing 168 people and wounding over 600.

February 1993 - A bomb in a van explodes in the underground parking garage in New York's World Trade Center, killing six people and wounding 1,042.

Dec. 21, 1988 - A bomb destroys Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. All 259 people aboard the Boeing 747 are killed including 189 Americans, as are 11 people on the ground.

April 1986 - An explosion damages a TWA flight as it prepares to land in Athens, Greece. Four people are killed when they are sucked out of the aircraft.

April 5, 1986 - A bomb destroys the LaBelle discotheque in West Berlin. The disco was known to be frequented by U.S. servicemen. The attack kills one American and one German woman and wounds 150, including 44 Americans

In response, on April 15 the United States retaliated in an operation dubbed ‘El Dorado Canyon.’ Approximately 100 aircraft were launched in direct support of the raid. It was an attack against military targets involving land-based bombers from Great Britain together with carrier-based air strikes from ships in the Gulf of Sidra.

December 1985 - Simultaneous suicide attacks are carried out against U.S. and Israeli check-in desks at Rome and Vienna international airports. 20 people are killed in the two attacks, including four terrorists.

November 1985 - Hijackers aboard an Egyptair flight kill one American. Egyptian commandos later storm the aircraft on the isle of Malta, and 60 people are killed.

October 1985 - Palestinian terrorists hijack the cruise liner Achille Lauro (in response to the Israeli attack on PLO headquarters in Tunisia) Leon Klinghoffer, an elderly, wheelchair-bound American, is killed and thrown overboard.

August 1985 - A car bomb at a U.S. military base in Frankfurt, Germany kills two and injures 20. A U.S. soldier murdered for his identity papers is found a day after the explosion.

June 1985 - A TWA airliner is hijacked over the Mediterranean, the start of a two-week hostage ordeal. The last 39 passengers are eventually released in Damascus after being held in various locations in Beirut.

June 1985 - In San Salvador, El Salvador, 13 people are killed in a machine gun attack at an outdoor café, including four U.S. Marines and two American businessmen.

April 1985 - A bomb explodes in a restaurant near a U.S. air base in Madrid, Spain, killing 18, all Spaniards, and wounding 82, including 15 Americans.

November 1984 - A bomb attack on the U.S. embassy in Bogota, Colombia kills a passer-by. The attack was preceded by death threats against U.S. officials by drug traffickers.

October 1983 - A suicide car bomb attack against the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut kills 241 servicemen. A simultaneous attack on a French base kills 58 paratroopers.

April 1983 - A suicide car bombing against the U.S. embassy in Beirut kills 63, including 17 Americans.

Chronology of Major Terrorist Attacks Against U.S. Targets - CDI Terrorism Project - Center for Defense Information

 

[Intense]

A list of international terrorist organizations considered by the U.S. State Department to be active during the last five years.

AFGHANISTAN

NAME: al Qaeda

DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: Established by Osama bin Laden in the late 1980s.

GOALS: Establish a pan-Islamic Caliphate throughout the world by working with allied Islamic extremist groups to overthrow regimes it deems "non-Islamic," and expelling Westerners and non-Muslims from Muslim countries.

MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: Is suspected of involvement in the October 2000 bombing of the USS Cole in Aden, Yemen. Conducted the bombings in August 1998 of the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, that killed at least 301 persons and injured more than 5,000 others. Claims to have shot down U.S. helicopters and killed U.S. servicemen in Somalia in 1993, and to have conducted three bombings that targeted U.S. troops in Aden, Yemen, in December 1992.

STRENGTH: May have several hundred to several thousand members.

OPERATIONAL LOCATIONS: Al Qaeda has a worldwide reach with cells in a number of countries, and benefits from its ties to Sunni extremist networks. Bin Laden and his top associates reside in Afghanistan, and the group maintains terrorist training camps there.

AFFILIATIONS: Serves as the umbrella organization for a worldwide network that includes many Sunni Islamic extremist groups, such as Egyptian Islamic Jihad, some members of al-Gama'at al-Islamiyya, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, and the Harakat ul-Mujahidin.

COMMENTS: Bin Laden is the son of a wealthy Saudi family, and uses his inheritance to finance the group. Al Qaeda also operates moneymaking front organizations, solicits donations, and illicitly siphons funds from donations to Muslim charitable organizations.



ALGERIA


NAME: Armed Islamic Group (GIA)

DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: 1992.

GOALS: GIA aims to overthrow the secular Algerian regime and replace it with an Islamic state.

MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: None.

STRENGTH: Unknown, probably several hundred to several thousand.

OPERATIONAL LOCATIONS: Algeria.

AFFILIATIONS: Algerian expatriates and members of the Salafi Group for Call and Combat (GSPC) splinter group abroad, many of whom reside in Western Europe, provide financial and logistic support. In addition, the Algerian government has accused Iran and Sudan of supporting Algerian extremists.

COMMENTS: The GSPC splinter faction appears to have eclipsed the GIA since approximately 1998 and is currently assessed to be the most effective remaining armed group inside Algeria. A U.S. Designated Foreign Terrorist Organization (FTO) listed as "active" during 2000.

NAME: The Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC)

DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: 1996.

GOALS: Overthrow the Algerian government and impose fundamentalist Islamic theocracy.

MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: Unknown.

STRENGTH: Unknown; suspected to be several hundred to several thousand.

OPERATIONAL LOCATIONS: Algeria.

AFFILIATIONS: Algerian expatriates and GSPC members living abroad. The Algerian government has accused Iran and Sudan of supporting Algerian extremists. The GSPC may also receive support from the Armed Islamic Group (GIA) network in Europe, Africa and the Middle East. Some GSPC members in Europe are suspected of having ties with other North African extremists sympathetic to al Qaeda.

COMMENTS: GSPC is a splinter group of the GIA, and has gained popular support through its pledge not to attack civilians inside Algeria (although it has not kept the pledge). It was designated a Foreign Terrorist Organization (FTO) on March 27, 2002.



CAMBODIA


NAME: Khmer Rouge/The Party of Democratic Kampuchea

DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: 1970s

GOALS: Overthrow the Cambodian government.

MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: None

STRENGTH: Fewer than 500, possibly no more than 100.

OPERATIONAL LOCATIONS: Outlying provinces in Cambodia, particularly in the northwest along the border with Thailand.

AFFILIATIONS: None.

COMMENTS: The group was a Communist insurgency that conducted a campaign of genocide, killing more than 1 million in the late 1970s. Disintegrated due to defections in the late 1990s.



CHILE


NAME: Manuel Rodriguez Patriotic Front (FPMR)

DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: 1983.

GOALS: Carry out missions of the Chilean Communist Party as its armed wing.

MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: Attacks civilians and international targets, including U.S. businesses and Mormon churches. Bombed two restaurants in the U.S. in 1993.

STRENGTH: 50 to 100.

OPERATIONAL LOCATIONS: Chile, United States.

AFFILIATIONS: None.



COLOMBIA


NAME: National Liberation Army (ELN)—Colombia

DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: 1965.

GOALS: Replacing the current government with a Marxist regime.

MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: Conducted a campaign of mass kidnappings during the late 1990s, each of which involved at least one U.S. citizen.

STRENGTH: Approximately 3,000 to 6,000 armed combatants and an unknown number of active supporters.

OPERATIONAL LOCATIONS: Rural and mountainous areas of north, northeast, and southwest Colombia and Venezuela border regions.

AFFILIATIONS: Cuba provides some medical care and political consultation.

COMMENTS: Marxist insurgent group formed by urban intellectuals inspired by Fidel Castro and Che Guevara. A Designated Foreign Terrorist Organization (FTO) listed as "active" during 2000.



NAME: Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC)

DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: 1964.

GOALS: Replacing the current government with a Marxist regime.

MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: In March 1999, the FARC executed three U.S. Indian rights activists in Venezuela after it kidnapped them in Colombia.

STRENGTH: Approximately 9,000 to 12,000 armed combatants and an unknown number of supporters, mostly in rural areas.

OPERATIONAL LOCATIONS: Colombia with some activities — extortion, kidnapping, logistics — in Venezuela, Panama, and Ecuador.

AFFILIATIONS: Cuba provides some medical care and political consultation.

COMMENTS: Established as the military wing of the Colombian Communist Party. FARC continues peace negotiations with the Pastrana administration, which has granted the group several concessions, including a demilitarized zone used as a venue for negotiations. A Designated Foreign Terrorist Organization (FTO) listed as "active" during 2000.




NAME: United Self-Defense Forces/Group of Colombia (AUC-Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia)

DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: 1997.

GOALS: Claims its primary objective is to protect its sponsors from insurgents.

MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: The paramilitaries have not taken action against U.S. personnel.

STRENGTH: In early 2001, the government estimated there were 8,000 paramilitary fighters, including former military and insurgent personnel.

OPERATIONAL LOCATIONS: AUC forces are strongest in the north and northwest: Antioquia, Cordoba, Sucre, Bolivar, Atlantico, and Magdalena Departments of Colombia.

AFFILIATIONS: None outside Colombia. The AUC is supported by economic elites, drug traffickers, and local communities lacking effective government security.

COMMENTS: The AUC — commonly referred to as autodefensas or paramilitaries — is an umbrella organization formed in April 1997 to consolidate most local and regional paramilitary groups each with the mission to protect economic interests and combat insurgents locally. Listed as "active" during 2000, it was designated a Foreign Terrorist Organization (FTO) on October 5, 2001.



EGYPT


NAME: Al-Jihad a.k.a. Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Jihad Group, Islamic Jihad

DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: Late 1970s.

GOALS: Overthrow the Egyptian government and replace it with an Islamic state; attack U.S. and Israeli interests in Egypt and abroad.

MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: Car-bombing against official U.S. facilities.

STRENGTH: Unknown, suspected to be several hundred.

OPERATIONAL LOCATIONS: Mainly Cairo, but has a network outside Egypt, including Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan, Lebanon, and the United Kingdom.

AFFILIATIONS: Close partner of Osama Bin Laden's al Qaeda; Iran. May get some funds via various Islamic non-governmental organizations, cover businesses, and criminal acts.

COMMENTS: The original Jihad was responsible for the 1981 assassination of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat.


NAME: Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya (Islamic Group, IG)

DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: Late 1970s.

GOALS: The IG's primary goal is to overthrow the Egyptian government and replace it with an Islamic state, but certain group leaders also may be interested in attacking U.S. and Israeli interests.

MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: The IG has never specifically attacked a U.S. citizen or facility but has threatened U.S. interests.

STRENGTH: Unknown. At its peak, the IG probably commanded several thousand hard-core members and a like number of sympathizers. The 1998 cease-fire and security crackdowns following the attack on tourists in Luxor in 1997 probably have resulted in a substantial decrease in the group's numbers.

OPERATIONAL LOCATIONS: Operates mainly in the Al-Minya, Asyu't, Qina, and Sohaj Governorates of southern Egypt. Also appears to have support in Cairo, Alexandria, and other urban locations, particularly among unemployed graduates and students. Has a worldwide presence, including Sudan, the United Kingdom, Afghanistan, Austria, and Yemen.

AFFILIATIONS: Unknown. The Egyptian government believes that Iran, bin Laden, and Afghan militant groups support the organization. Also may obtain some funding through various Islamic non-governmental organizations.

COMMENTS: Al-Gama'a claims responsibility for the attempt in June 1995 to assassinate Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. The group's spiritual leader, Shaykh Umar Abd al-Rahman, is incarcerated in the United States. A Designated Foreign Terrorist Organization (FTO) listed as "active" during 2000.


Terrorism - Terrorist Organizations

 

[rdean]

Unfortunately, that shows how little you know. They vote in Iran, the same as Iraq. In fact, the reason the countries are so close now is because they are nearly mirror images.

You can pull any quote out of the Iraqi constitution, but this is the only one that matters:

Article 2:

First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

Try to figure out why. Think, "Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation". No where in Islam does it say you can't vote.

Now, think about the Christian population in Iraq. It used to be around 1.4 million. Current estimates are 3 to 4 hundred thousand. The Republican Party is 90% white and mostly Christian. Have they made a mistake and supported the genocide of Iraqi Christians? If not, how has the population dropped by a million? That never would have happened without the American Right wing's involvement in Iraq.

Now the two most important questions:

"Where are those people now"?

"Who is responsible for them"?

They vote in Iran, the same as Iraq.


you're joking right ?

Iran elects on national level a head of government (the president), a legislature (the Majlis), and an "Assembly of Experts" (which elects the head of state, the Supreme Leader). Also City and Village Council elections are held every four years throughout the country. The president is elected for a four-year term by the people. The Parliament or Islamic Consultative Assembly (Majlis-e Shura-ye Eslami) has 290 members, elected for a four-year term in multi- and single-seat constituencies. Elections for the Assembly of Experts are held every six years. Mayors will be elected by popular vote for once in 2010. All candidates have to be approved by the Guardian Council.

Elections in Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Iraq:

Among the banned candidates 60% were Sunni Muslims and 40% were Shi'a[63] however all of the banned candidates are members of secular and liberal parties and not a single member of a Sunni or Shi'a religious party was banned.

Iraqi parliamentary election, 2010 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you see what I mean? Liberals and secular candidates are being banned. Only those acceptable to the clerics. Remember Article II from the Constitution.

In 5 years or less, Iraq will be EXACTLY like Iran. They are racing there now. And the Republicans did it.

I thought I would see a rebuttal from washamericom. Guess not.

 

[The Rabbi]

Nope. YOU'RE the one who failed the troops by supporting needless deaths. You can sure tell that theirs deaths mean nothing to you.

Keep trying to obfuscate around the question. You fail. Admit it.

Nope. YOU'RE the one who failed the troops by supporting needless deaths. You can sure tell that theirs deaths mean nothing to you.

Quit using US troop casualties as talking points, ya big dope.
Please tell us when YOU Have ever supported our troops. I mean the ones not jowl to jowl with you at the union feeding trough.

 

[The T]

Keep trying to obfuscate around the question. You fail. Admit it.

Nope. YOU'RE the one who failed the troops by supporting needless deaths. You can sure tell that theirs deaths mean nothing to you.

Quit using US troop casualties as talking points, ya big dope.
Please tell us when YOU Have ever supported our troops. I mean the ones not jowl to jowl with you at the union feeding trough.

This Goose is cooked. This idiot is a whacko unionite nutjob.

 

[DaGoose]

Because an Ideology has declared a war on us and our way of life. No matter where we are, no matter what we do, they will seek us out and harm us. Our choice was to fight them on our terms, in their back yard, rather than wait for it to hit us on their terms.

Had I a say in Afghan Policy, I would have worked on securing the population centers, and building within the secured areas, infrastructure, and a better quality of life. I would expand on the formulas that showed the best promise. My biggest problem is with a Constitution that does not reflect an understanding of Unalienable Rights, which is the Foundation of Equal Rights and Equal Protection.

And just how did this "ideology" declare war on us and how did they "hit us"?

September 11, 2001 - Terrorists hijack four U.S. commercial airliners taking off from various locations in the United States in a coordinated suicide attack. In separate attacks, two of the airliners crash into the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York City, which catch fire and eventually collapse. A third airliner crashes into the Pentagon in Washington, DC, causing extensive damage. The fourth airliner, also believed to be heading towards Washington, DC, crashes outside Shanksville, PA., killing all 45 people on board. Casualty estimates from New York put the possible death toll close to 5,000, while as many as 200 people may have been lost at the Pentagon crash site.

Oct. 12, 2000 - A terrorist bomb damages the destroyer USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39.

Aug. 7, 1998 - Terrorist bombs destroy the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. In Nairobi, 12 Americans are among the 291 killed, and over 5,000 are wounded, including 6 Americans. In Dar es Salaam, one U.S. citizen is wounded among the 10 killed and 77 injured.

In response, on August 20 the United States attacked targets in Afghanistan and Sudan with over 75 cruise missiles fired from Navy ships in the Arabian and Red seas. About 60 Tomahawk cruise missiles were fired from warships in the Arabian Sea. Most struck six separate targets in a camp near Khost, Afghanistan. Simultaneously, about 20 cruise missiles were fired from U.S. ships in the Red Sea striking a factory in Khartoum, Sudan, which was suspected of producing components for making chemical weapons.

June 21, 1998 - Rocket-propelled grenades explode near the U.S. embassy in Beirut.

July 27, 1996 - A pipe bomb explodes during the Olympic games in Atlanta, killing one person and wounding 111.

June 25, 1996 - A bomb aboard a fuel truck explodes outside a U.S. air force installation in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. 19 U.S. military personnel are killed in the Khubar Towers housing facility, and 515 are wounded, including 240 Americans.

Nov. 13, 1995 - A car-bomb in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills seven people, five of them American military and civilian advisers for National Guard training. The "Tigers of the Gulf," "Islamist Movement for Change," and "Fighting Advocates of God" claim responsibility.

April 19, 1995 - A car bomb destroys the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing 168 people and wounding over 600.

February 1993 - A bomb in a van explodes in the underground parking garage in New York's World Trade Center, killing six people and wounding 1,042.

Dec. 21, 1988 - A bomb destroys Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. All 259 people aboard the Boeing 747 are killed including 189 Americans, as are 11 people on the ground.

April 1986 - An explosion damages a TWA flight as it prepares to land in Athens, Greece. Four people are killed when they are sucked out of the aircraft.

April 5, 1986 - A bomb destroys the LaBelle discotheque in West Berlin. The disco was known to be frequented by U.S. servicemen. The attack kills one American and one German woman and wounds 150, including 44 Americans

In response, on April 15 the United States retaliated in an operation dubbed ‘El Dorado Canyon.’ Approximately 100 aircraft were launched in direct support of the raid. It was an attack against military targets involving land-based bombers from Great Britain together with carrier-based air strikes from ships in the Gulf of Sidra.

December 1985 - Simultaneous suicide attacks are carried out against U.S. and Israeli check-in desks at Rome and Vienna international airports. 20 people are killed in the two attacks, including four terrorists.

November 1985 - Hijackers aboard an Egyptair flight kill one American. Egyptian commandos later storm the aircraft on the isle of Malta, and 60 people are killed.

October 1985 - Palestinian terrorists hijack the cruise liner Achille Lauro (in response to the Israeli attack on PLO headquarters in Tunisia) Leon Klinghoffer, an elderly, wheelchair-bound American, is killed and thrown overboard.

August 1985 - A car bomb at a U.S. military base in Frankfurt, Germany kills two and injures 20. A U.S. soldier murdered for his identity papers is found a day after the explosion.

June 1985 - A TWA airliner is hijacked over the Mediterranean, the start of a two-week hostage ordeal. The last 39 passengers are eventually released in Damascus after being held in various locations in Beirut.

June 1985 - In San Salvador, El Salvador, 13 people are killed in a machine gun attack at an outdoor café, including four U.S. Marines and two American businessmen.

April 1985 - A bomb explodes in a restaurant near a U.S. air base in Madrid, Spain, killing 18, all Spaniards, and wounding 82, including 15 Americans.

November 1984 - A bomb attack on the U.S. embassy in Bogota, Colombia kills a passer-by. The attack was preceded by death threats against U.S. officials by drug traffickers.

October 1983 - A suicide car bomb attack against the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut kills 241 servicemen. A simultaneous attack on a French base kills 58 paratroopers.

April 1983 - A suicide car bombing against the U.S. embassy in Beirut kills 63, including 17 Americans.

Chronology of Major Terrorist Attacks Against U.S. Targets - CDI Terrorism Project - Center for Defense Information

So you are saying Iraq was responsible?? And these are the reasons you say we invaded and occupied Iraq and costs thousands of our military to die????

 

[The T]

And just how did this "ideology" declare war on us and how did they "hit us"?

September 11, 2001 - Terrorists hijack four U.S. commercial airliners taking off from various locations in the United States in a coordinated suicide attack. In separate attacks, two of the airliners crash into the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York City, which catch fire and eventually collapse. A third airliner crashes into the Pentagon in Washington, DC, causing extensive damage. The fourth airliner, also believed to be heading towards Washington, DC, crashes outside Shanksville, PA., killing all 45 people on board. Casualty estimates from New York put the possible death toll close to 5,000, while as many as 200 people may have been lost at the Pentagon crash site.

Oct. 12, 2000 - A terrorist bomb damages the destroyer USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39.

Aug. 7, 1998 - Terrorist bombs destroy the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. In Nairobi, 12 Americans are among the 291 killed, and over 5,000 are wounded, including 6 Americans. In Dar es Salaam, one U.S. citizen is wounded among the 10 killed and 77 injured.

In response, on August 20 the United States attacked targets in Afghanistan and Sudan with over 75 cruise missiles fired from Navy ships in the Arabian and Red seas. About 60 Tomahawk cruise missiles were fired from warships in the Arabian Sea. Most struck six separate targets in a camp near Khost, Afghanistan. Simultaneously, about 20 cruise missiles were fired from U.S. ships in the Red Sea striking a factory in Khartoum, Sudan, which was suspected of producing components for making chemical weapons.

June 21, 1998 - Rocket-propelled grenades explode near the U.S. embassy in Beirut.

July 27, 1996 - A pipe bomb explodes during the Olympic games in Atlanta, killing one person and wounding 111.

June 25, 1996 - A bomb aboard a fuel truck explodes outside a U.S. air force installation in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. 19 U.S. military personnel are killed in the Khubar Towers housing facility, and 515 are wounded, including 240 Americans.

Nov. 13, 1995 - A car-bomb in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills seven people, five of them American military and civilian advisers for National Guard training. The "Tigers of the Gulf," "Islamist Movement for Change," and "Fighting Advocates of God" claim responsibility.

April 19, 1995 - A car bomb destroys the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing 168 people and wounding over 600.

February 1993 - A bomb in a van explodes in the underground parking garage in New York's World Trade Center, killing six people and wounding 1,042.

Dec. 21, 1988 - A bomb destroys Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. All 259 people aboard the Boeing 747 are killed including 189 Americans, as are 11 people on the ground.

April 1986 - An explosion damages a TWA flight as it prepares to land in Athens, Greece. Four people are killed when they are sucked out of the aircraft.

April 5, 1986 - A bomb destroys the LaBelle discotheque in West Berlin. The disco was known to be frequented by U.S. servicemen. The attack kills one American and one German woman and wounds 150, including 44 Americans

In response, on April 15 the United States retaliated in an operation dubbed ‘El Dorado Canyon.’ Approximately 100 aircraft were launched in direct support of the raid. It was an attack against military targets involving land-based bombers from Great Britain together with carrier-based air strikes from ships in the Gulf of Sidra.

December 1985 - Simultaneous suicide attacks are carried out against U.S. and Israeli check-in desks at Rome and Vienna international airports. 20 people are killed in the two attacks, including four terrorists.

November 1985 - Hijackers aboard an Egyptair flight kill one American. Egyptian commandos later storm the aircraft on the isle of Malta, and 60 people are killed.

October 1985 - Palestinian terrorists hijack the cruise liner Achille Lauro (in response to the Israeli attack on PLO headquarters in Tunisia) Leon Klinghoffer, an elderly, wheelchair-bound American, is killed and thrown overboard.

August 1985 - A car bomb at a U.S. military base in Frankfurt, Germany kills two and injures 20. A U.S. soldier murdered for his identity papers is found a day after the explosion.

June 1985 - A TWA airliner is hijacked over the Mediterranean, the start of a two-week hostage ordeal. The last 39 passengers are eventually released in Damascus after being held in various locations in Beirut.

June 1985 - In San Salvador, El Salvador, 13 people are killed in a machine gun attack at an outdoor café, including four U.S. Marines and two American businessmen.

April 1985 - A bomb explodes in a restaurant near a U.S. air base in Madrid, Spain, killing 18, all Spaniards, and wounding 82, including 15 Americans.

November 1984 - A bomb attack on the U.S. embassy in Bogota, Colombia kills a passer-by. The attack was preceded by death threats against U.S. officials by drug traffickers.

October 1983 - A suicide car bomb attack against the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut kills 241 servicemen. A simultaneous attack on a French base kills 58 paratroopers.

April 1983 - A suicide car bombing against the U.S. embassy in Beirut kills 63, including 17 Americans.

Chronology of Major Terrorist Attacks Against U.S. Targets - CDI Terrorism Project - Center for Defense Information

So you are saying Iraq was responsible?? And these are the reasons you say we invaded and occupied Iraq and costs thousands of our military to die????

*Let him rant folks...He's showing his idiocy*

 

[DaGoose]

Keep trying to obfuscate around the question. You fail. Admit it.

Nope. YOU'RE the one who failed the troops by supporting needless deaths. You can sure tell that theirs deaths mean nothing to you.

Quit using US troop casualties as talking points, ya big dope.
Please tell us when YOU Have ever supported our troops. I mean the ones not jowl to jowl with you at the union feeding trough.

I'm sure that's the only way you see our troops, don't you? As "talking points"?

Nope. YOU'RE the one who failed the troops by supporting needless deaths. You can sure tell that theirs deaths mean nothing to you.

Quit using US troop casualties as talking points, ya big dope.
Please tell us when YOU Have ever supported our troops. I mean the ones not jowl to jowl with you at the union feeding trough.

This Goose is cooked. This idiot is a whacko unionite nutjob.

Better to be a "union nutjob" than an unpatriotic moron that cares little that our troops fought and died FOR NO GOOD REASON.

 

[DaGoose]

September 11, 2001 - Terrorists hijack four U.S. commercial airliners taking off from various locations in the United States in a coordinated suicide attack. In separate attacks, two of the airliners crash into the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York City, which catch fire and eventually collapse. A third airliner crashes into the Pentagon in Washington, DC, causing extensive damage. The fourth airliner, also believed to be heading towards Washington, DC, crashes outside Shanksville, PA., killing all 45 people on board. Casualty estimates from New York put the possible death toll close to 5,000, while as many as 200 people may have been lost at the Pentagon crash site.

Oct. 12, 2000 - A terrorist bomb damages the destroyer USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39.

Aug. 7, 1998 - Terrorist bombs destroy the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. In Nairobi, 12 Americans are among the 291 killed, and over 5,000 are wounded, including 6 Americans. In Dar es Salaam, one U.S. citizen is wounded among the 10 killed and 77 injured.

In response, on August 20 the United States attacked targets in Afghanistan and Sudan with over 75 cruise missiles fired from Navy ships in the Arabian and Red seas. About 60 Tomahawk cruise missiles were fired from warships in the Arabian Sea. Most struck six separate targets in a camp near Khost, Afghanistan. Simultaneously, about 20 cruise missiles were fired from U.S. ships in the Red Sea striking a factory in Khartoum, Sudan, which was suspected of producing components for making chemical weapons.

June 21, 1998 - Rocket-propelled grenades explode near the U.S. embassy in Beirut.

July 27, 1996 - A pipe bomb explodes during the Olympic games in Atlanta, killing one person and wounding 111.

June 25, 1996 - A bomb aboard a fuel truck explodes outside a U.S. air force installation in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. 19 U.S. military personnel are killed in the Khubar Towers housing facility, and 515 are wounded, including 240 Americans.

Nov. 13, 1995 - A car-bomb in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills seven people, five of them American military and civilian advisers for National Guard training. The "Tigers of the Gulf," "Islamist Movement for Change," and "Fighting Advocates of God" claim responsibility.

April 19, 1995 - A car bomb destroys the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing 168 people and wounding over 600.

February 1993 - A bomb in a van explodes in the underground parking garage in New York's World Trade Center, killing six people and wounding 1,042.

Dec. 21, 1988 - A bomb destroys Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. All 259 people aboard the Boeing 747 are killed including 189 Americans, as are 11 people on the ground.

April 1986 - An explosion damages a TWA flight as it prepares to land in Athens, Greece. Four people are killed when they are sucked out of the aircraft.

April 5, 1986 - A bomb destroys the LaBelle discotheque in West Berlin. The disco was known to be frequented by U.S. servicemen. The attack kills one American and one German woman and wounds 150, including 44 Americans

In response, on April 15 the United States retaliated in an operation dubbed ‘El Dorado Canyon.’ Approximately 100 aircraft were launched in direct support of the raid. It was an attack against military targets involving land-based bombers from Great Britain together with carrier-based air strikes from ships in the Gulf of Sidra.

December 1985 - Simultaneous suicide attacks are carried out against U.S. and Israeli check-in desks at Rome and Vienna international airports. 20 people are killed in the two attacks, including four terrorists.

November 1985 - Hijackers aboard an Egyptair flight kill one American. Egyptian commandos later storm the aircraft on the isle of Malta, and 60 people are killed.

October 1985 - Palestinian terrorists hijack the cruise liner Achille Lauro (in response to the Israeli attack on PLO headquarters in Tunisia) Leon Klinghoffer, an elderly, wheelchair-bound American, is killed and thrown overboard.

August 1985 - A car bomb at a U.S. military base in Frankfurt, Germany kills two and injures 20. A U.S. soldier murdered for his identity papers is found a day after the explosion.

June 1985 - A TWA airliner is hijacked over the Mediterranean, the start of a two-week hostage ordeal. The last 39 passengers are eventually released in Damascus after being held in various locations in Beirut.

June 1985 - In San Salvador, El Salvador, 13 people are killed in a machine gun attack at an outdoor café, including four U.S. Marines and two American businessmen.

April 1985 - A bomb explodes in a restaurant near a U.S. air base in Madrid, Spain, killing 18, all Spaniards, and wounding 82, including 15 Americans.

November 1984 - A bomb attack on the U.S. embassy in Bogota, Colombia kills a passer-by. The attack was preceded by death threats against U.S. officials by drug traffickers.

October 1983 - A suicide car bomb attack against the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut kills 241 servicemen. A simultaneous attack on a French base kills 58 paratroopers.

April 1983 - A suicide car bombing against the U.S. embassy in Beirut kills 63, including 17 Americans.

Chronology of Major Terrorist Attacks Against U.S. Targets - CDI Terrorism Project - Center for Defense Information

So you are saying Iraq was responsible?? And these are the reasons you say we invaded and occupied Iraq and costs thousands of our military to die????

*Let him rant folks...He's showing his idiocy*

Uhhh...I asked him to justify the deaths of our troops in Iraq and he responded with terrorist attacks. So I'm guessing he's saying that Iraq was responsible.

 

[DaGoose]

And to sum it up........

You all support the Iraq War and the deaths of our troops.

I asked you all to justify the invasion.

You failed to do it. You couldn't even come up with ONE good reason why we should have inveded.

Then the troops died for NO GOOD REASON.

End of story.

 

[The T]

And to sum it up........

You all support the Iraq War and the deaths of our troops.

I asked you all to justify the invasion.

You failed to do it. You couldn't even come up with ONE good reason why we should have inveded.

Then the troops died for NO GOOD REASON.

End of story.

To sum it up? The Congress still voted for it...funded it...even those that you support.

End Of Story.

 

[The T]

So you are saying Iraq was responsible?? And these are the reasons you say we invaded and occupied Iraq and costs thousands of our military to die????

*Let him rant folks...He's showing his idiocy*

Uhhh...I asked him to justify the deaths of our troops in Iraq and he responded with terrorist attacks. So I'm guessing he's saying that Iraq was responsible.

"If I only had a brain..."

 

[The Rabbi]

Nope. YOU'RE the one who failed the troops by supporting needless deaths. You can sure tell that theirs deaths mean nothing to you.

Quit using US troop casualties as talking points, ya big dope.
Please tell us when YOU Have ever supported our troops. I mean the ones not jowl to jowl with you at the union feeding trough.

I'm sure that's the only way you see our troops, don't you? As "talking points"?

Quit using US troop casualties as talking points, ya big dope.
Please tell us when YOU Have ever supported our troops. I mean the ones not jowl to jowl with you at the union feeding trough.

This Goose is cooked. This idiot is a whacko unionite nutjob.

Better to be a "union nutjob" than an unpatriotic moron that cares little that our troops fought and died FOR NO GOOD REASON.

OK so yuou admit you're a union nut job.
At least we got that much of the thread.

So on to iggy you go because lord knows we've got nutjobs galore on this site.

 

[Intense]

Ahhhh....the classic "I can't win this argument so I'm changing the subject" ploy.

C'mon now....I'm sure you can at least try. Here, let me get you started......

"I can justify the invasion and the deaths of our troops because _________________."

Because an Ideology has declared a war on us and our way of life. No matter where we are, no matter what we do, they will seek us out and harm us. Our choice was to fight them on our terms, in their back yard, rather than wait for it to hit us on their terms.

Had I a say in Afghan Policy, I would have worked on securing the population centers, and building within the secured areas, infrastructure, and a better quality of life. I would expand on the formulas that showed the best promise. My biggest problem is with a Constitution that does not reflect an understanding of Unalienable Rights, which is the Foundation of Equal Rights and Equal Protection.

And just how did this "ideology" declare war on us and how did they "hit us"?

And just how did this "ideology" declare war on us and how did they "hit us"?

I have shown you how this Ideology has declared war on us, when and where.

 

[Intense]

And just how did this "ideology" declare war on us and how did they "hit us"?

September 11, 2001 - Terrorists hijack four U.S. commercial airliners taking off from various locations in the United States in a coordinated suicide attack. In separate attacks, two of the airliners crash into the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York City, which catch fire and eventually collapse. A third airliner crashes into the Pentagon in Washington, DC, causing extensive damage. The fourth airliner, also believed to be heading towards Washington, DC, crashes outside Shanksville, PA., killing all 45 people on board. Casualty estimates from New York put the possible death toll close to 5,000, while as many as 200 people may have been lost at the Pentagon crash site.

Oct. 12, 2000 - A terrorist bomb damages the destroyer USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39.

Aug. 7, 1998 - Terrorist bombs destroy the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. In Nairobi, 12 Americans are among the 291 killed, and over 5,000 are wounded, including 6 Americans. In Dar es Salaam, one U.S. citizen is wounded among the 10 killed and 77 injured.

In response, on August 20 the United States attacked targets in Afghanistan and Sudan with over 75 cruise missiles fired from Navy ships in the Arabian and Red seas. About 60 Tomahawk cruise missiles were fired from warships in the Arabian Sea. Most struck six separate targets in a camp near Khost, Afghanistan. Simultaneously, about 20 cruise missiles were fired from U.S. ships in the Red Sea striking a factory in Khartoum, Sudan, which was suspected of producing components for making chemical weapons.

June 21, 1998 - Rocket-propelled grenades explode near the U.S. embassy in Beirut.

July 27, 1996 - A pipe bomb explodes during the Olympic games in Atlanta, killing one person and wounding 111.

June 25, 1996 - A bomb aboard a fuel truck explodes outside a U.S. air force installation in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. 19 U.S. military personnel are killed in the Khubar Towers housing facility, and 515 are wounded, including 240 Americans.

Nov. 13, 1995 - A car-bomb in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills seven people, five of them American military and civilian advisers for National Guard training. The "Tigers of the Gulf," "Islamist Movement for Change," and "Fighting Advocates of God" claim responsibility.

April 19, 1995 - A car bomb destroys the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing 168 people and wounding over 600.

February 1993 - A bomb in a van explodes in the underground parking garage in New York's World Trade Center, killing six people and wounding 1,042.

Dec. 21, 1988 - A bomb destroys Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. All 259 people aboard the Boeing 747 are killed including 189 Americans, as are 11 people on the ground.

April 1986 - An explosion damages a TWA flight as it prepares to land in Athens, Greece. Four people are killed when they are sucked out of the aircraft.

April 5, 1986 - A bomb destroys the LaBelle discotheque in West Berlin. The disco was known to be frequented by U.S. servicemen. The attack kills one American and one German woman and wounds 150, including 44 Americans

In response, on April 15 the United States retaliated in an operation dubbed ‘El Dorado Canyon.’ Approximately 100 aircraft were launched in direct support of the raid. It was an attack against military targets involving land-based bombers from Great Britain together with carrier-based air strikes from ships in the Gulf of Sidra.

December 1985 - Simultaneous suicide attacks are carried out against U.S. and Israeli check-in desks at Rome and Vienna international airports. 20 people are killed in the two attacks, including four terrorists.

November 1985 - Hijackers aboard an Egyptair flight kill one American. Egyptian commandos later storm the aircraft on the isle of Malta, and 60 people are killed.

October 1985 - Palestinian terrorists hijack the cruise liner Achille Lauro (in response to the Israeli attack on PLO headquarters in Tunisia) Leon Klinghoffer, an elderly, wheelchair-bound American, is killed and thrown overboard.

August 1985 - A car bomb at a U.S. military base in Frankfurt, Germany kills two and injures 20. A U.S. soldier murdered for his identity papers is found a day after the explosion.

June 1985 - A TWA airliner is hijacked over the Mediterranean, the start of a two-week hostage ordeal. The last 39 passengers are eventually released in Damascus after being held in various locations in Beirut.

June 1985 - In San Salvador, El Salvador, 13 people are killed in a machine gun attack at an outdoor café, including four U.S. Marines and two American businessmen.

April 1985 - A bomb explodes in a restaurant near a U.S. air base in Madrid, Spain, killing 18, all Spaniards, and wounding 82, including 15 Americans.

November 1984 - A bomb attack on the U.S. embassy in Bogota, Colombia kills a passer-by. The attack was preceded by death threats against U.S. officials by drug traffickers.

October 1983 - A suicide car bomb attack against the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut kills 241 servicemen. A simultaneous attack on a French base kills 58 paratroopers.

April 1983 - A suicide car bombing against the U.S. embassy in Beirut kills 63, including 17 Americans.

Chronology of Major Terrorist Attacks Against U.S. Targets - CDI Terrorism Project - Center for Defense Information

So you are saying Iraq was responsible?? And these are the reasons you say we invaded and occupied Iraq and costs thousands of our military to die????

No I am not saying that Iraq had a hand in 9/11. I am saying they were a part of the Ideology at war with us. They will fight us there or here.You think by leaving the Jihad is over? You are kidding only yourself.

 

[The Rabbi]

No I am not saying that Iraq had a hand in 9/11. I am saying they were a part of the Ideology at war with us. They will fight us there or here.You think by leaving the Jihad is over? You are kidding only yourself.

That's too subtle for his little brain. Try something like "Tastes Great! Less Filling!"