A-10 Versus F-35

[longknife]

This is an awesome review of the history of the Warthog and the current policy of replacing them with a platform that is over budget and still not ready for deployment.


This start sets the tone for the piece:


Bullets pelted the armored plating of the Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicle as insurgents surrounded the small convoy. A rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) ravaged the lead vehicle, forcing the occupants to dive for cover from the flames and shrapnel. The convoy was outgunned and outnumbered by the well-coordinated insurgent attack.


Read the full worthwhile story @ The A-10 the F-35 and the Future of Close Air Support Part I

 

[DarkFury]

I have nothing but respect for the A 10 "Wart hog". It truly IS the Guardian Angel of men on the ground.

 

[ScienceRocks]

f-35 was a huge joke and should of never been approved...We should of made a thousand f-22 and modernized the a-10 instead.

 

[longknife]

Weapons procurement is probably the most tangled web in all of government - I've known too many in the Five-Sided Puzzle Palace and understand how it works.

Someone, somewhere, decides that a system is or is going to become obsolete. A notice is sent out within the system and various vendors hurriedly present their options. A Project Officer has been assigned and given a staff including mostly civilians.

The vendors notify the politicians they have in their pockets who in turn hold hearings, calling on the Project Officers to explain their reasoning and criteria. A great deal of pressure is applied and those vendors in areas represented by committee chairmen somehow manage to get awarded the main or sub-contracts.

In a lot of cases, alerts go out well ahead of time so vendors can come up with prototypes or proposals. Some funding is usually approved by the appropriate politicians for these.

While the actual contracts are quite detailed and outline specific requirements, they are often modified as time goes by. One of these is, of course, the completion date.

Also, remember there is far more involved than just the weapons platform itself. There is training for operators and technicians along with creating a supply chain for maintenance.

One other alternative. When a system begins to age, one option is to upgrade it. These contracts are usually quite lucrative. I wonder how many billions have been spent to keep the decades-old B-52 in the air.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

ICUUCME.

 

[Mr. H.]

ICUUCME.

Are you related to Mike?

 

[DarkFury]

Weapons procurement is probably the most tangled web in all of government - I've known too many in the Five-Sided Puzzle Palace and understand how it works.

Someone, somewhere, decides that a system is or is going to become obsolete. A notice is sent out within the system and various vendors hurriedly present their options. A Project Officer has been assigned and given a staff including mostly civilians.

The vendors notify the politicians they have in their pockets who in turn hold hearings, calling on the Project Officers to explain their reasoning and criteria. A great deal of pressure is applied and those vendors in areas represented by committee chairmen somehow manage to get awarded the main or sub-contracts.

In a lot of cases, alerts go out well ahead of time so vendors can come up with prototypes or proposals. Some funding is usually approved by the appropriate politicians for these.

While the actual contracts are quite detailed and outline specific requirements, they are often modified as time goes by. One of these is, of course, the completion date.

Also, remember there is far more involved than just the weapons platform itself. There is training for operators and technicians along with creating a supply chain for maintenance.

One other alternative. When a system begins to age, one option is to upgrade it. These contracts are usually quite lucrative. I wonder how many billions have been spent to keep the decades-old B-52 in the air.

The A10 is a forty year old air frame but nothing beats it in close quarters. The B52 is far older and it really is time to drop the prop from our military.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Weapons procurement is probably the most tangled web in all of government - I've known too many in the Five-Sided Puzzle Palace and understand how it works.

Someone, somewhere, decides that a system is or is going to become obsolete. A notice is sent out within the system and various vendors hurriedly present their options. A Project Officer has been assigned and given a staff including mostly civilians.

The vendors notify the politicians they have in their pockets who in turn hold hearings, calling on the Project Officers to explain their reasoning and criteria. A great deal of pressure is applied and those vendors in areas represented by committee chairmen somehow manage to get awarded the main or sub-contracts.

In a lot of cases, alerts go out well ahead of time so vendors can come up with prototypes or proposals. Some funding is usually approved by the appropriate politicians for these.

While the actual contracts are quite detailed and outline specific requirements, they are often modified as time goes by. One of these is, of course, the completion date.

Also, remember there is far more involved than just the weapons platform itself. There is training for operators and technicians along with creating a supply chain for maintenance.

One other alternative. When a system begins to age, one option is to upgrade it. These contracts are usually quite lucrative. I wonder how many billions have been spent to keep the decades-old B-52 in the air.

The A10 is a forty year old air frame but nothing beats it in close quarters. The B52 is far older and it really is time to drop the prop from our military.

A bomber or cargo bird hasn't the flight characteristics of a Fighter or Attack bird. The FA type AC have a rough life. They are flown right up against their flight parameters. Stop and think about it, for attack or fighters, the A-10 is the oldest type. It goes back to the F-14A and F-15A days which neither are being flown anymore. You can replace the wings, tail surfaces, engines, avionics but it's not cost affective if the air frame needs replacing. It's cheaper just to buy another one if it's in production. The A-10 hasn't been in production since the 80s. The dies and jigs have long since been scrapped. WE can fight it all we want but the days of the A-10 are almost over.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Not sure why the A-10 even needed 'modernization.' It's primary role in ground support and killing tanks which it does exceedingly well. A supersonic fighter isn't well-suited to providing ground support since a fighter's claim to fame doesn't take place that low or slow in the sky. A-10's a subsonic plane which can actually make out individuals on the ground so infinitely better suited for such operations.

Plus of course when you shoot an A-10 you just make it mad at you. Shoot an F-35 and it blows up.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Not sure why the A-10 even needed 'modernization.' It's primary role in ground support and killing tanks which it does exceedingly well. A supersonic fighter isn't well-suited to providing ground support since a fighter's claim to fame doesn't take place that low or slow in the sky. A-10's a subsonic plane which can actually make out individuals on the ground so infinitely better suited for such operations.

Plus of course when you shoot an A-10 you just make it mad at you. Shoot an F-35 and it blows up.

The Marines don't need nor want the A-10. They use their Cobras for close CAS and it's backed up by the FA-18s. Of course, the Cobra is the absolute most manueverable aircraft in the skies. The AH-1 is still in production. For CAS, the Cobra even outshines the Apache. That Apache is extremely armored and armed but it lacks the manueverability of the Cobra. What the Army might do is learn from the Marines and start using the AH-64 for what it was orginally intended and that is support of the ground troops. We seem to overlook the Apache and the Cobra, both are better at CAS than the A-10 and much more survivable in todays world.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Not sure why the A-10 even needed 'modernization.' It's primary role in ground support and killing tanks which it does exceedingly well. A supersonic fighter isn't well-suited to providing ground support since a fighter's claim to fame doesn't take place that low or slow in the sky. A-10's a subsonic plane which can actually make out individuals on the ground so infinitely better suited for such operations.

Plus of course when you shoot an A-10 you just make it mad at you. Shoot an F-35 and it blows up.

The Marines don't need nor want the A-10. They use their Cobras for close CAS and it's backed up by the FA-18s. Of course, the Cobra is the absolute most manueverable aircraft in the skies. The AH-1 is still in production. For CAS, the Cobra even outshines the Apache. That Apache is extremely armored and armed but it lacks the manueverability of the Cobra. What the Army might do is learn from the Marines and start using the AH-64 for what it was orginally intended and that is support of the ground troops. We seem to overlook the Apache and the Cobra, both are better at CAS than the A-10 and much more survivable in todays world.

Pilot saves six Marines earning him the Distinguished Flying Cross with Valor

"Two sections of F-18 Super Hornet fighter jets responded to the Marines' request for close-air support but couldn't help them because they would not fly below the clouds covering the mountains below.

Shortly after, the Marines received word that two A-10 Warthogs, one flown by 1st Lt. Aaron Cavazos, penetrated the cloud cover and found a way into the tight valley. While the A-10s diverted surface fire to themselves by using overt lighting, they were able to identify friendly and enemy positions allowing the Marines time to develop a plan.

The Marines quickly moved out of the compound to an eight-foot wall north of their position while engaging the enemy who was as close as 10 feet away. As they pushed north from the wall under heavy enemy fire, they heard the sound of the 30mm guns in support of their movement as A-10s made the first of a series of low-angle gun runs closer than 50 meters away."

Theory's best kept in a classroom.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Not sure why the A-10 even needed 'modernization.' It's primary role in ground support and killing tanks which it does exceedingly well. A supersonic fighter isn't well-suited to providing ground support since a fighter's claim to fame doesn't take place that low or slow in the sky. A-10's a subsonic plane which can actually make out individuals on the ground so infinitely better suited for such operations.

Plus of course when you shoot an A-10 you just make it mad at you. Shoot an F-35 and it blows up.

The Marines don't need nor want the A-10. They use their Cobras for close CAS and it's backed up by the FA-18s. Of course, the Cobra is the absolute most manueverable aircraft in the skies. The AH-1 is still in production. For CAS, the Cobra even outshines the Apache. That Apache is extremely armored and armed but it lacks the manueverability of the Cobra. What the Army might do is learn from the Marines and start using the AH-64 for what it was orginally intended and that is support of the ground troops. We seem to overlook the Apache and the Cobra, both are better at CAS than the A-10 and much more survivable in todays world.

Pilot saves six Marines earning him the Distinguished Flying Cross with Valor

"Two sections of F-18 Super Hornet fighter jets responded to the Marines' request for close-air support but couldn't help them because they would not fly below the clouds covering the mountains below.

Shortly after, the Marines received word that two A-10 Warthogs, one flown by 1st Lt. Aaron Cavazos, penetrated the cloud cover and found a way into the tight valley. While the A-10s diverted surface fire to themselves by using overt lighting, they were able to identify friendly and enemy positions allowing the Marines time to develop a plan.

The Marines quickly moved out of the compound to an eight-foot wall north of their position while engaging the enemy who was as close as 10 feet away. As they pushed north from the wall under heavy enemy fire, they heard the sound of the 30mm guns in support of their movement as A-10s made the first of a series of low-angle gun runs closer than 50 meters away."

Theory's best kept in a classroom.

A couple of Cobras could have done the same job. Or a couple of Apaches.

AH 1 Cobra Attack Helicopter Documentary 2015

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Not sure why the A-10 even needed 'modernization.' It's primary role in ground support and killing tanks which it does exceedingly well. A supersonic fighter isn't well-suited to providing ground support since a fighter's claim to fame doesn't take place that low or slow in the sky. A-10's a subsonic plane which can actually make out individuals on the ground so infinitely better suited for such operations.

Plus of course when you shoot an A-10 you just make it mad at you. Shoot an F-35 and it blows up.

The Marines don't need nor want the A-10. They use their Cobras for close CAS and it's backed up by the FA-18s. Of course, the Cobra is the absolute most manueverable aircraft in the skies. The AH-1 is still in production. For CAS, the Cobra even outshines the Apache. That Apache is extremely armored and armed but it lacks the manueverability of the Cobra. What the Army might do is learn from the Marines and start using the AH-64 for what it was orginally intended and that is support of the ground troops. We seem to overlook the Apache and the Cobra, both are better at CAS than the A-10 and much more survivable in todays world.

Pilot saves six Marines earning him the Distinguished Flying Cross with Valor

"Two sections of F-18 Super Hornet fighter jets responded to the Marines' request for close-air support but couldn't help them because they would not fly below the clouds covering the mountains below.

Shortly after, the Marines received word that two A-10 Warthogs, one flown by 1st Lt. Aaron Cavazos, penetrated the cloud cover and found a way into the tight valley. While the A-10s diverted surface fire to themselves by using overt lighting, they were able to identify friendly and enemy positions allowing the Marines time to develop a plan.

The Marines quickly moved out of the compound to an eight-foot wall north of their position while engaging the enemy who was as close as 10 feet away. As they pushed north from the wall under heavy enemy fire, they heard the sound of the 30mm guns in support of their movement as A-10s made the first of a series of low-angle gun runs closer than 50 meters away."

Theory's best kept in a classroom.

A couple of Cobras could have done the same job. Or a couple of Apaches.

AH 1 Cobra Attack Helicopter Documentary 2015

Wow, coulda just said nothing but instead went the other way burying yourself further in whatever pile of crap you're standing in already.

"Coulda done the job" vs "Actually did the job" makes you look like a fucking idiot.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Not sure why the A-10 even needed 'modernization.' It's primary role in ground support and killing tanks which it does exceedingly well. A supersonic fighter isn't well-suited to providing ground support since a fighter's claim to fame doesn't take place that low or slow in the sky. A-10's a subsonic plane which can actually make out individuals on the ground so infinitely better suited for such operations.

Plus of course when you shoot an A-10 you just make it mad at you. Shoot an F-35 and it blows up.

The Marines don't need nor want the A-10. They use their Cobras for close CAS and it's backed up by the FA-18s. Of course, the Cobra is the absolute most manueverable aircraft in the skies. The AH-1 is still in production. For CAS, the Cobra even outshines the Apache. That Apache is extremely armored and armed but it lacks the manueverability of the Cobra. What the Army might do is learn from the Marines and start using the AH-64 for what it was orginally intended and that is support of the ground troops. We seem to overlook the Apache and the Cobra, both are better at CAS than the A-10 and much more survivable in todays world.

Pilot saves six Marines earning him the Distinguished Flying Cross with Valor

"Two sections of F-18 Super Hornet fighter jets responded to the Marines' request for close-air support but couldn't help them because they would not fly below the clouds covering the mountains below.

Shortly after, the Marines received word that two A-10 Warthogs, one flown by 1st Lt. Aaron Cavazos, penetrated the cloud cover and found a way into the tight valley. While the A-10s diverted surface fire to themselves by using overt lighting, they were able to identify friendly and enemy positions allowing the Marines time to develop a plan.

The Marines quickly moved out of the compound to an eight-foot wall north of their position while engaging the enemy who was as close as 10 feet away. As they pushed north from the wall under heavy enemy fire, they heard the sound of the 30mm guns in support of their movement as A-10s made the first of a series of low-angle gun runs closer than 50 meters away."

Theory's best kept in a classroom.

A couple of Cobras could have done the same job. Or a couple of Apaches.

AH 1 Cobra Attack Helicopter Documentary 2015

Wow, coulda just said nothing but instead went the other way burying yourself further in whatever pile of crap you're standing in already.

"Coulda done the job" vs "Actually did the job" makes you look like a fucking idiot.

The fact remains that the AH-1Z is still in production. Take the 300 A-10 Pilot Slots and make 300 Cobra Slots. Same for the Apache. Both of these have one mission and one mission only. CAS. If an aging A-10 is called upon to do the job then you don't have enough of the Cobra/Viper and Apaches. My question is, where was the A-h1Z Vipers? They are supposed to be with the troops. If the Marines have to call on the A-10s for CAS their CAS has failed.

 

[longknife]

The argument between fixed wing and rotor is not ever going to find an agreeable solution.

Each has it's own pluses and minuses.

I agree that the A-10 needs to find a home at the Boneyard but what is best to replace it? The supposed advantage of the F-35 was its adaptability to the various branches. It can fly low and slow and carry a huge variety of weapons. At the same time, is has air-to-air capabilities.

As to which will come out ahead - it's purely political at this point. Which has the biggest support in Congress will be the choice in the end.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The argument between fixed wing and rotor is not ever going to find an agreeable solution.

Each has it's own pluses and minuses.

I agree that the A-10 needs to find a home at the Boneyard but what is best to replace it? The supposed advantage of the F-35 was its adaptability to the various branches. It can fly low and slow and carry a huge variety of weapons. At the same time, is has air-to-air capabilities.

As to which will come out ahead - it's purely political at this point. Which has the biggest support in Congress will be the choice in the end.

I can't believe that anyone would fly a F-35 low and slow. That would make it the most expensive "Hit Me" sign that ever existed. Besides, it doesn't have to be low and slow to place weapons on about a 10 foot area. The problem is IDing the white hats and the black hats. The A-10 is not the answer to that either. Ground Controllers are the answer. If there is a ground FAC then they can let the attacking bird (no matter if it's a fixed or rotory) the exact locations of the friendlies.