100 Facts

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by Moi
Your post is a very logical, lucid argument. It is also obvious to me that the original article's author has an agenda too. I also agree that they have every right to say what they want and, vile though it may be, just calling something lies becuause you don't agree with something is just as wrong one way as the other.

I am not a white supremicist nor do I think that whites should have any MORE rights than anyone else. I do think, however, that they shouldn't have fewer (i.e., affirmative action) and that includes the right to keep their money and/or have their government spend it equally not unequally due to race. I also reaffirm my earlier post that those who do not overcome their poverty by participating in their own salvation don't deserve the assistance of the government and it's other citizens.

To that I can understand wholeheartedly.

 

[nbdysfu]

At this point in the conversation, perhaps a little info on the reasoning behind the new avatar, Jimnyc? WTF?

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by nbdysfu
At this point in the conversation, perhaps a little info on the reasoning behind the new avatar, Jimnyc? WTF?

It's hardly a new avatar, it's the one I used at the beginning. I just changed during football season. I don't think I need to explain myself for responding to a thread.

 

[Graeme Kessey]

Although I have come in late on this subject I would like to respond to Big D about Asian Crime. In Sydney there are certain parts of that city that are a no go area if you are not Asian. The cops do there best but the way thse communities are they do not intergrate and most do not bother to learn English as they are insular and have no need to move from there suburbs. This is also happening with people from the Middle East, by not having to learn English they stay in these pockets and cause grief elsewhere.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by Graeme Kessey
Although I have come in late on this subject I would like to respond to Big D about Asian Crime. In Sydney there are certain parts of that city that are a no go area if you are not Asian. The cops do there best but the way thse communities are they do not intergrate and most do not bother to learn English as they are insular and have no need to move from there suburbs. This is also happening with people from the Middle East, by not having to learn English they stay in these pockets and cause grief elsewhere.

I believe there is a lot of truth in what you say. Integration rather than segregation (ie the Ghetto effect) of minorities, I believe has a much better return in terms of security and standard of living for both the cultural minority and majority. An excellent example of this is any city in Canada with the possible exception of Vancouver or some minorities in Toronto. The city I am is an excellent example of cultural integration, where various minorities and the white majority combine very well to a point where you don't pick out minorities on the street and fear them, but I'd even go so far as to say we can celebrate them.

I also believe you a correct in that any immigrant to a country must learn the native tongue of the majority. This is absolutely essential. I believe this to be beneficial not in terms of cultural arrogance, but in the positive hope to improve communication between people to create some sort of dialogue.

 

[Big D]

These 100 facts stood up very well to any most all who criticized them.

The best attempt was to show a handfull of inventions by african-americans. These inventions are great but they where thought of after blacks had came in contact and were influenced by Whites.

As I said, if these facts would have been reversed and were about Whites they would be very easy to dismiss.

Reality does not equal hate

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by Big D
These 100 facts stood up very well to any most all who criticized them.

The best attempt was to show a handfull of inventions by african-americans. These inventions are great but they where thought of after blacks had came in contact and were influenced by Whites.

As I said, if these facts would have been reversed and were about Whites they would be very easy to dismiss.

Reality does not equal hate

Well, actually i completely disagree. If you read my posts, I show that there is enough logical fallicies in the so called facts to cast doubt on the validity of thesis in the whole.

 

[jimnyc]

All I have to say is, can we have our 2.5 trillion wasted dollars back?

 

[Big D]

Isaac

What is amazing is that blacks have the most success and a higher standard of living when living in a White controled socity.

The more black control a socity has will lessen the quality of life.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by Big D
Isaac

What is amazing is that blacks have the most success and a higher standard of living when living in a White controled socity.

The more black control a socity has will lessen the quality of life.

Oh absolutely, that's because they've been exposed to the white-western standard for quality of living. I'll be the first one to admitt that us white folk have got that down pat!

 

[Comrade]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock

Well, actually i completely disagree. If you read my posts, I show that there is enough logical fallicies in the so called facts to cast doubt on the validity of thesis in the whole.

Interesting thread and great debate.

First off in response to at least one link you posted in rebuttal, it does not refute the claim made on testing.



There NO classification by race AT ALL in the results. The only thing this study proved, is that socio-economic factors do play a role in IQ testing. A fact also recognized by the whole section on testing:

FACT #9:
White/Negro I.Q. differences are constantly excused as results of environmental variations. but at least five studies that have attempted to equate socio-economic backgrounds of the two races indicate no significant change in relative results.

FACT #13:
Even when Blacks and Whites have the same backgrounds, in terms of family income and childhood advantages, Blacks still have average I.Q. scores 12 to 15 points lower than comparable Whites. This includes cases where Black children have been adopted by White parents. Their I.Q.s may be improved by environment, but they are still closer to their biological parents than their adoptive parents.

More importantly the study makes the downright ignorant statement of saying that Socio-econ factors are MORE important in determining results, without providing any results or classification by race to even make that comparison. I would have FLUNKED this student, given the conclusion is unsupportable.

Also note the rest of fact 9 refers to work that shows the relationship of Socio-econ factors grow more disparate between races as they improve.

Anyway, I agree all studies and results are biased in some way, or else the motivation to do them would be lacking.

I chose not to dispute the facts, but certain points are moot. The slavery points lack a certain quality of morality that disturbs me. In terms of the suffering of humanity when compared to such forms of government which allow such treatment, the overall quality and respect for life and liberty is cheapened. We all benefit from eliminating such barbarity from our civilization, and the concept of "color blindness" is a very legitimate cause. There is a point where ruling society by genetics devolves into a brutal and immoral way of life.

 

[Big D]

Comrade

At the bottom of the 100 facts there are sites listed that give information and credibilty to these facts.

Here is a site that gives much more information to this subject:

http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/stalkers/jpr_insight.html

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by Comrade
Interesting thread and great debate.

First off in response to at least one link you posted in rebuttal, it does not refute the claim made on testing.



There NO classification by race AT ALL in the results. The only thing this study proved, is that socio-economic factors do play a role in IQ testing. A fact also recognized by the whole section on testing:

FACT #9:
White/Negro I.Q. differences are constantly excused as results of environmental variations. but at least five studies that have attempted to equate socio-economic backgrounds of the two races indicate no significant change in relative results.

FACT #13:
Even when Blacks and Whites have the same backgrounds, in terms of family income and childhood advantages, Blacks still have average I.Q. scores 12 to 15 points lower than comparable Whites. This includes cases where Black children have been adopted by White parents. Their I.Q.s may be improved by environment, but they are still closer to their biological parents than their adoptive parents.

More importantly the study makes the downright ignorant statement of saying that Socio-econ factors are MORE important in determining results, without providing any results or classification by race to even make that comparison. I would have FLUNKED this student, given the conclusion is unsupportable.

Also note the rest of fact 9 refers to work that shows the relationship of Socio-econ factors grow more disparate between races as they improve.

Anyway, I agree all studies and results are biased in some way, or else the motivation to do them would be lacking.

I chose not to dispute the facts, but certain points are moot. The slavery points lack a certain quality of morality that disturbs me. In terms of the suffering of humanity when compared to such forms of government which allow such treatment, the overall quality and respect for life and liberty is cheapened. We all benefit from eliminating such barbarity from our civilization, and the concept of "color blindness" is a very legitimate cause. There is a point where ruling society by genetics devolves into a brutal and immoral way of life. http://www.hamilton.edu/academic/Government/government_375/sp97/Race&Testing/rt4.html

A good answer and good post, however if you read my posts you will see the importance i have placed on socio-economic background in regards to IQ. The material I provided did not discuss race simply because my thesis was based on the fact that since blacks were of a low socio-economic standing, i argue that it is their socio-economic standing rather than race that gives them lower IQ based on the studies I present.

As an aside, one of the reasons why I question the validity of the thesis presented in the 100 "facts" is that there is no mention of other source of cause for the prescribed "facts" other than race along. I would call this a Fallacy of Inclusion (or lack on inclusion in this case), which can make for wholes in the validity of the author's thesis.

In otherwords (and I know i've mentionned this before), it's not necessarily what the author is saying that's not true (though some are suspect as i've mentionned in brief earlier), it's what he's leaving out that gives context and balance. A serious error indeed.

 

[bamthin]

Originally posted by Big D
These 100 facts stood up very well to any most all who criticized them.

The best attempt was to show a handfull of inventions by african-americans. These inventions are great but they where thought of after blacks had came in contact and were influenced by Whites.

As I said, if these facts would have been reversed and were about Whites they would be very easy to dismiss.

Reality does not equal hate

My links were to inventions and innovations that occurred prior to white colonization of Africa. And, I discredited the first two facts and stopped there because of the time it would take to prove any of the other ones were false. I was only tasked to prove that ANY of the FACTS were false and I did that. The task was not to prove EVERY fact was false. What if the guy listed 10000 facts? At what point do you see a spade for a spade? (no pun intended).

It is quite obvious this person has boldly presented at least one fact that was merely an opinion and another fact that was proven false by me. I didn't scour through to pick one I could dispute, I picked FACT #1 and then FACT #2.

The whole list, in my opinion, is driven by white supremacist hate and, as a white person, I am embarassed by it. I don't see Asians posting links to the same studies that "prove" they are more intelligent than caucasians here.


-Bam

 

[jimnyc]

It is quite obvious this person has boldly presented at least one fact that was merely an opinion and another fact that was proven false by me. I didn't scour through to pick one I could dispute, I picked FACT #1 and then FACT #2.

I'd still say 98% is pretty damn telling. And you didn't 'disprove' #1, you just disagreed with the supporting cast he used as comparison.

It is quite obvious this person has boldly presented at least one fact that was merely an opinion and another fact that was proven false by me. I didn't scour through to pick one I could dispute, I picked FACT #1 and then FACT #2.

I'm mostly concerned about the crime statistics. The IQ and other stats don't effect my life directly. The crime statistics are accurate and have risen since most of these 'facts' were written. The crime within the black population is abhorrent and cannot be disputed or disproven in any way.

The whole list, in my opinion, is driven by white supremacist hate and, as a white person, I am embarassed by it. I don't see Asians posting links to the same studies that "prove" they are more intelligent than caucasians here.

It doesn't matter what you think it's driven by, they are facts. I won't debate the rest, but are you stating the crime statistics amongst the black community is inaccurate? If I was black, and I read these crime statistics, then I'd be embarassed.

 

[Comrade]

Originally posted by Big D
Comrade

At the bottom of the 100 facts there are sites listed that give information and credibilty to these facts.

Here is a site that gives much more information to this subject:

http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/stalkers/jpr_insight.html

I got you BigD. It may not have been clear, but I was referring to the study on Socio-Econ Factors linked by I.B., and the fact that nothing in this study disputed your facts. In other words, both race and S.E. factors play a role. Both studies confirm this. His however, claimed a fact which could not be supported, that is, that S.E. factors are MORE important. The damn study didn't even track race at all, so no such conclusion is valid.


Just playing the neutral scientist role in this case. NO WAY would I support using these facts to re-instate slavery, genetic selection, ethnic cleansing, etc. There are more important aspects to humanity than raw cognitive ability.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by Comrade
I got you BigD. It may not have been clear, but I was referring to the study on Socio-Econ Factors linked by I.B., and the fact that nothing in this study disputed your facts. In other words, both race and S.E. factors play a role. Both studies confirm this. His however, claimed a fact which could not be supported, that is, that S.E. factors are MORE important. The damn study didn't even track race at all, so no such conclusion is valid.


Just playing the neutral scientist role in this case. NO WAY would I support using these facts to re-instate slavery, genetic selection, ethnic cleansing, etc. There are more important aspects to humanity than raw cognitive ability.

I never stated that SE factors are more important, rather I was looking for another possible explanation for IQ other than race. My argument that since history of the black race was linked to low SE welfare, that that study would should that it was the SE factors not necessarily limited to blacks that could account for the lower IQ. It was simply another explanation which i certainly don't think is unreasonable.

 

[Big D]

Comrade

I am not for any of the things that you mention such as slavery ect..... the facts are just to point out the many differences there are in different human species.

But clearly White socity would be much better off if they had never come in contact with blacks.

As far as the socio-econ factor:

Does being poor make you dumb,
or does being dumb make you poor?

I myself would think the latter.

 

[jones]

Originally posted by Big D
Comrade

I am not for any of the things that you mention such as slavery ect..... the facts are just to point out the many differences there are in different human species.

But clearly White socity would be much better off if they had never come in contact with blacks.

As far as the socio-econ factor:

Does being poor make you dumb,
or does being dumb make you poor?

I myself would think the latter.

Heh, maybe its the other way around, blacks being much better off without ever coming in contact with whites.

 

[jimnyc]

Does being poor make you dumb,
or does being dumb make you poor?

I vote for the latter!

Heh, maybe its the other way around, blacks being much better off without ever coming in contact with whites.

I guess so. Then rape, murder & assault would be a condoned way of life. The prison population would nearly empty & whites would be free to go wherever they please whenever they please.