1,500 Teachers Paid to Do Union Business While Missing Class

[Provocateur]

We condemn corporate leaders for private jets and expensive vacations, and they steal from the shareholders. This kind of practice in NY steals from the taxpayers. They are both wrong.

Shareholders are required to hold stock in a private company?

But at least you used a feeble 'the evil conservatives do it too'...although it isn't even the same thing.

Points for effort.

 

[thereisnospoon]

We condemn corporate leaders for private jets and expensive vacations, and they steal from the shareholders. This kind of practice in NY steals from the taxpayers. They are both wrong.

Inappropriate. Off topic.
Straw man arguments are dismissed.

 

[Anachronism]

Playing devil's advocate here only a little bit, why not? Why can't union business be done during non business hours? Shouldn't teachers participating in union negotiations be doing that on their own time and not during the taxpayer's time? I have done a ton of voluneer work and also participated on employee committees and it was always on my own time, not my employers' time.

Lets take a look at the situation I deal with. I work for a utility company with workers in Rhode Island, New Hampshire, and from end to end in Massachusetts. To bring everyone together in a common location would require at least a 2 hour one way drive for many of the people. We are a shifted workforce. In many cases the people who need to get together do not necessarily work the same shift, in terms of hours, days, or both in some cases.

In terms of negotiations, this is what you seem to be suggesting..... We all get off of work around 3:30pm. We all travel to the negotiation location to meet with the company. We get started at 6:00. We negotiate for 6 hours, leaving at midnight. It takes some of these people 2 hours to get home. Then they're expected to be at work by 7:30 the next morning. Do you see how ridiculous that is to suggest?

Most of our internal Union business is carried out off-hours. However, if I have to have a meeting with my supervisor, his boss, the Union VP, and a member of the company's Labor Department over an issue of something the company is doing wrong, why shouldn't we be doing it on the company's time. They made the mistake, they can pay the price.

 

[Provocateur]

how's the medicare part b treating you, willow?

wow my dear Jilly. SO uncalled for.
tsk tsk

Have all liberals become completely unhinged?

 

[thereisnospoon]

Willow, I cannot speak for the activities of these teachers specifically, or what the United Federation of Teachers is having them do, but I can say that as a Union Steward and as someone who sat on the Negotiating Team for our last Contract, there are times when Union business does need to be carried out during the regular workday. I missed probably an average of part to all of one day every two weeks for Union Business between January of 2009 and March 31, 2010 related to the negotiations for our contract.

Without the ability to do certain (not all, but certain) business during regular work hours, Unions cease to exist as a viable entity. Whether it's negotiations, grievance hearings, etc... some of these things just cannot be done after hours.

Then you should have been paid by your union, not your employer. And if you are publicly employed, certainly NOT the taxpayers.

 

[Foxfyre]

Playing devil's advocate here only a little bit, why not? Why can't union business be done during non business hours? Shouldn't teachers participating in union negotiations be doing that on their own time and not during the taxpayer's time? I have done a ton of voluneer work and also participated on employee committees and it was always on my own time, not my employers' time.

Lets take a look at the situation I deal with. I work for a utility company with workers in Rhode Island, New Hampshire, and from end to end in Massachusetts. To bring everyone together in a common location would require at least a 2 hour one way drive for many of the people. We are a shifted workforce. In many cases the people who need to get together do not necessarily work the same shift, in terms of hours, days, or both in some cases.

In terms of negotiations, this is what you seem to be suggesting..... We all get off of work around 3:30pm. We all travel to the negotiation location to meet with the company. We get started at 6:00. We negotiate for 6 hours, leaving at midnight. It takes some of these people 2 hours to get home. Then they're expected to be at work by 7:30 the next morning. Do you see how ridiculous that is to suggest?

Most of our internal Union business is carried out off-hours. However, if I have to have a meeting with my supervisor, his boss, the Union VP, and a member of the company's Labor Department over an issue of something the company is doing wrong, why shouldn't we be doing it on the company's time. They made the mistake, they can pay the price.

When I chaired an employee grievance committee once, I can't remember it taking six hours to meet with the boss to express that grievance. It can almost always be expressed in a very few minutes and we always also expressed it in writing. And in every case, the grievances to be expressed were told to me on breaks or over the lunch hour, i.e. on the employees' time, and the committee would discuss them over lunch or after hours. I would ask to see the supervisor or boss for a few minutes after closing. Sometimes he would agree to that and sometimes he would ask me to come on to his office right then. In that case he was willingly expending the value of my time and salary--I was not demanding that he do so.

If the unions want employees to take substantial time--anything over a half hour would be substantial--doing union business, the union should pay those employees, not the boss and certainly not the taxpayer.

 

[thereisnospoon]

doesn't matter how much you use it. it's there when you want it.

just get rid of everyone else's benefits, right?

Jillian, mo chara, don't deflect. Respond to the OP. Right or wrong? Not a hard question.

i did respond. i chose to point out what a hypocrite she is.

Your argument is at best, vapid.
interjecting unrelated nonsense into a discussion only makes you look stupid.
BTW, you're really good at that.

 

[jillian]

Jillian, mo chara, don't deflect. Respond to the OP. Right or wrong? Not a hard question.

i did respond. i chose to point out what a hypocrite she is.

Your argument is at best, vapid.
interjecting unrelated nonsense into a discussion only makes you look stupid.
BTW, you're really good at that.

i tend not to get overly offended when someone like you, with a double digit IQ, insults my intelligence.

 

[Anachronism]

When I chaired an employee grievance committee once, I can't remember it taking six hours to meet with the boss to express that grievance. It can almost always be expressed in a very few minutes and we always also expressed it in writing. And in every case, the grievances to be expressed were told to me on breaks or over the lunch hour, i.e. on the employees' time, and the committee would discuss them over lunch or after hours. I would ask to see the supervisor or boss for a few minutes after closing. Sometimes he would agree to that and sometimes he would ask me to come on to his office right then. In that case he was willingly expending the value of my time and salary--I was not demanding that he do so.

We don't do anything formal in a verbal manner. The employee may come to me verbally, but I end up having to sit down and write up a formal Grievance Notice if it's something we do need to deal with. That's probably 1 in 8 of the things they come to me with. From that point on it's all formal. There are no informal meetings, chats, etc... The standard Grievance hearing takes about an hour. I've been in ones that have taken up to three hours. Often times it will take up to three meetings to remedy an issue. I do know of Grievance hearings that have taken up to eight hours.

The six hours I was referring to were related to contract negotiations more than grievance hearings.

If the unions want employees to take substantial time--anything over a half hour would be substantial--doing union business, the union should pay those employees, not the boss and certainly not the taxpayer.

On the rare occasions that it is truly pure UNION Business (as compared to Union-Company business) there is a provision for the Union to pay for it. In two and a half years, I've had two total instances where that was the case.

 

[Trajan]

Willow, I cannot speak for the activities of these teachers specifically, or what the United Federation of Teachers is having them do, but I can say that as a Union Steward and as someone who sat on the Negotiating Team for our last Contract, there are times when Union business does need to be carried out during the regular workday. I missed probably an average of part to all of one day every two weeks for Union Business between January of 2009 and March 31, 2010 related to the negotiations for our contract.

Without the ability to do certain (not all, but certain) business during regular work hours, Unions cease to exist as a viable entity. Whether it's negotiations, grievance hearings, etc... some of these things just cannot be done after hours.

good post. I agree with your reasoning, some times things just have to be done during bus,. hours, I don't have a problem with that, however, in this particular set of circumstances they are not just letting someone walk off the line with a buddy picking up the slack or someone leaving their office work undone, they are in effect paying 2 salaries for the same work day and one block of work.

I am sure its written into the contract... but......

I do have an issue wht that.

 

[thereisnospoon]

How Much Does Part B Cost?
If you have Part B, you pay a Part B premium each month. Most people will pay the standard premium amount. Social Security will contact some people who have to pay more depending on their income. If you don't sign up for Part B when you are first eligible, you may have to pay a late enrollment penalty




Paid into the system for 30 years.

Have paid premium fees monthly

Have paid for a supplemnt monthly


Have paid a huge deductible when I went for my yearly physical..






and Jillian wants to bitch about me and my use of medicare part B.

and those teachers took lesser salaries in order to obtain their benefits.... by virtue of collective bargaining which you're ok with stripping them of.

sure nuff... balance that budget, but not on your back, eh?

Baloney. As a whole, unionized public sector workers earn about 30% more than their private sector or non union counterparts. Also, when adding in benefits for public employees, that figure rises to nearly 50% more.
Here is a link to the NJ Public employee salaries.
New Jersey by the Numbers - NJ.com...
For example....In the school district from which I graduated, the top 50% of the 500 teachers and staff earn in excess of $100,000 per year. My sociology teacher, a 33 year district veteran earns over $167,000 annually....Fully 75% of the teachers in that same district are paid $75,000 or more per year. This of course does not include the value of their benefits
My home town a quiet northern NJ town of 4,700 where there is little crime and police officer has not fired a shot on duty in over 50 years has officers that are paid over $100,000 per year.
This is how NJ public unions are able to extort these high wages and gold plated benefits. Each municipality must negotiate with the union on it's own. The towns do not have the clout needed to battle against the union, so each contract is essentially rubber stamped. The town then must increase property taxes to fund the new contract. Taxes sometimes were increased by as much as 20% in a single year.
The bottom line is there is no balance. The taxpayers have no say so. No seat at the table. If they did, this would have been under control and the attack on public worker unions would be unnecessary. However, the unions got greedy and the politicians simply went along with the status quo. Why? Because the union bosses contribute big dollars to the political campaigns of shall we say, cooperative" elected officials.
AT the end of the day everyone is happy. The politicians, the union bosses and of course the workers who have been trained to think they are entitled to such taxpayer largess.
Well guess who is missing from the negotiating table?...That's right, the TAXPAYERS.
This cannot continue.

 

[Anachronism]

good post. I agree with your reasoning, some times things just have to be done during bus,. hours, I don't have a problem with that, however, in this particular set of circumstances they are not just letting someone walk off the line with a buddy picking up the slack or someone leaving their office work undone, they are in effect paying 2 salaries for the same work day and one block of work.

I am sure its written into the contract... but...... I do have an issue wht that.

I agree. There definitely sounds like there's something ODD going on there. Why a Union Rep is needed 6 periods a day is beyond me. If there are that many grievances, issues, etc... then it would seem to me that the Union Leadership needs to sit down with the School District and get things worked out once and for all.

You're probably right that it's in the contract and people are taking advantage of it. That's an issue that ought to be dealt with by the Union Leadership and the School District.

 

[Foxfyre]

When I chaired an employee grievance committee once, I can't remember it taking six hours to meet with the boss to express that grievance. It can almost always be expressed in a very few minutes and we always also expressed it in writing. And in every case, the grievances to be expressed were told to me on breaks or over the lunch hour, i.e. on the employees' time, and the committee would discuss them over lunch or after hours. I would ask to see the supervisor or boss for a few minutes after closing. Sometimes he would agree to that and sometimes he would ask me to come on to his office right then. In that case he was willingly expending the value of my time and salary--I was not demanding that he do so.

We don't do anything formal in a verbal manner. The employee may come to me verbally, but I end up having to sit down and write up a formal Grievance Notice if it's something we do need to deal with. That's probably 1 in 8 of the things they come to me with. From that point on it's all formal. There are no informal meetings, chats, etc... The standard Grievance hearing takes about an hour. I've been in ones that have taken up to three hours. Often times it will take up to three meetings to remedy an issue. I do know of Grievance hearings that have taken up to eight hours.

The six hours I was referring to were related to contract negotiations more than grievance hearings.

If the unions want employees to take substantial time--anything over a half hour would be substantial--doing union business, the union should pay those employees, not the boss and certainly not the taxpayer.

On the rare occasions that it is truly pure UNION Business (as compared to Union-Company business) there is a provision for the Union to pay for it. In two and a half years, I've had two total instances where that was the case.

Not having worked in your business, I don't have any serious problem with short term negotiations etc. so long as the employer is not required to pay overtime or take a loss because of union activities that could have been handled outside of business hours.

BUT......at some point the union is going to have to get back to the business of dealing with unethical and unfair employer relations, which is why workers originally unionized, rather than sticking it to the employer for as much as it can get regardless of whether that is good for the business or not.

OSHA and fair labor laws have taken care of most of the unfair and unethical employee relationships these days. That leaves the union mostly in the business of looking to its own power, influence, and wealth and the employer (or the taxpayer) be damned.

Until that situation is turned around, I think unions will continue to be a factor for fewer and fewer workers until they are stripped of their power entirely. Public sector employees--those supported by the taxpayer--are the last mega group to undergo serious soul searching and overhaul.

Non union shops in private industry will continue to kick butt and whittle away at the profits of the union shops unless the unions wise up. The taxpayer can bail out General Motors and Chrysler only so many times.

And the taxpayer can be asked to make up the difference in growing state and federal deficits only so long before they turn en masse against the public sector unions and say enough.

 

[DiveCon]

i did respond. i chose to point out what a hypocrite she is.

Your argument is at best, vapid.
interjecting unrelated nonsense into a discussion only makes you look stupid.
BTW, you're really good at that.

i tend not to get overly offended when someone like you, with a double digit IQ, insults my intelligence.

jillian, back to the topic of the OP

did you notice the story has nothing to do with WI?

 

[uscitizen]

How much do we pay elected officials to campaign for re-election?

 

[WillowTree]

Your argument is at best, vapid.
interjecting unrelated nonsense into a discussion only makes you look stupid.
BTW, you're really good at that.

i tend not to get overly offended when someone like you, with a double digit IQ, insults my intelligence.

jillian, back to the topic of the OP

did you notice the story has nothing to do with WI?

her knee hit her chin, she's passed out. don't wake her up.

 

[Trajan]

good post. I agree with your reasoning, some times things just have to be done during bus,. hours, I don't have a problem with that, however, in this particular set of circumstances they are not just letting someone walk off the line with a buddy picking up the slack or someone leaving their office work undone, they are in effect paying 2 salaries for the same work day and one block of work.

I am sure its written into the contract... but...... I do have an issue wht that.

I agree. There definitely sounds like there's something ODD going on there. Why a Union Rep is needed 6 periods a day is beyond me. If there are that many grievances, issues, etc... then it would seem to me that the Union Leadership needs to sit down with the School District and get things worked out once and for all.

You're probably right that it's in the contract and people are taking advantage of it. That's an issue that ought to be dealt with by the Union Leadership and the School District.

and let it be said, private sector unions are not averse to the same games, that craven mgt. lets them have. I read Crash Course by paul ingrassia in which he chronicles Detroit's rise and fall ala the auto. industry.

And some of the unions rules and work strictures are simply ridiculous; allowing an entire line come to a halt for an hour for want of a fresh fuse that cannot be replaced or touched by anyone other than the Union electrical tech. who was on break, and could not be disturbed, then when the fuse is replaced the workers got OT to make up the line quota because of the stand still, is, well, unreal.

I blame the Unions and I blame mgt. in this case. The point is, just imagine for a second the nonsense that goes on in public sector unions were neither the giver or taker consider profit or where the dollars come from.........

 

[thereisnospoon]

i did respond. i chose to point out what a hypocrite she is.

Your argument is at best, vapid.
interjecting unrelated nonsense into a discussion only makes you look stupid.
BTW, you're really good at that.

i tend not to get overly offended when someone like you, with a double digit IQ, insults my intelligence.

Well you must not be all that insulted then. You really walked into that one ,genius.
You're still guilty of interjecting unrelated nonsense.
Look, if you intend on trying to appear condescending, at least learn some skills first.
Listen cookie, You couldn't outsmart my pinkie toe. You're way out of your league here, sweetie.

 

[uscitizen]

I am sure that Palin forefeited her governors salary while campaining for the VP slot.

Politicians should be like all us working types if we look for another job and just do it after working hours and on weekends. Or take vacation time.

 

[Anachronism]

Not having worked in your business, I don't have any serious problem with short term negotiations etc. so long as the employer is not required to pay overtime or take a loss because of union activities that could have been handled outside of business hours.

There is never any OT involved. Trust me, NONE OF US on either side want to be there. It is about the least enjoyable part of my job, to be honest with you.

BUT......at some point the union is going to have to get back to the business of dealing with unethical and unfair employer relations, which is why workers originally unionized, rather than sticking it to the employer for as much as it can get regardless of whether that is good for the business or not.

The vast majority of my Union Business on company time is initiated by the Company, rather than the Union. For example.... Last Tuesday I spent about two hours emailing, talking, on the phone and meeting with our Union Local VP and three different supervisors about an issue related to what work members of our group were supposed to be doing while on OT. This was initiated because the supervisors had forced two Union employees to do work that is not part of our responsibility while in on OT over the prior weekend. Likewise, last Friday I spent about 30-45 minutes running the appropriate list to fill the company's request for two individuals to work OT that evening.

THAT is the sort of stuff that makes up most of my "Union Business" that gets done on Company time. Not exactly "sticking it to the man" type stuff there, now is it?

OSHA and fair labor laws have taken care of most of the unfair and unethical employee relationships these days. That leaves the union mostly in the business of looking to its own power, influence, and wealth and the employer (or the taxpayer) be damned.

Actually most of what we're involved in these days (at least at my company) is trying to get the Company to live up to the contractual obligations that they have already agreed to in writing.

Until that situation is turned around, I think unions will continue to be a factor for fewer and fewer workers until they are stripped of their power entirely. Public sector employees--those supported by the taxpayer--are the last mega group to undergo serious soul searching and overhaul.

Interestingly enough we have more and more groups in the company I work for that are trying to Unionize. Mostly because it has become exceptionally apparent that the company has no interest in the well-being of its employees and cares only about its profit margin.

Non union shops in private industry will continue to kick butt and whittle away at the profits of the union shops unless the unions wise up. The taxpayer can bail out General Motors and Chrysler only so many times.

And the taxpayer can be asked to make up the difference in growing state and federal deficits only so long before they turn en masse against the public sector unions and say enough.

I work in a regulated private industry. No government money but lots of government oversight. Mostly at the State level, but some at the Federal level as well. There's no way the Unions are going away in this line of business.