Zundel is released from the gulag

[feduptaxpayer]

Well the day is here and Ernst Zundel is a free man. For those who don't know the story, Zundel was thrown in a German gulag for daring to question a so-called historical event ie: the Holocaust. He was thrown in the gulag for five long years because he dared to question an event that took place over 65 years ago. Whether the Holocaust happenned as they say it did or it didn't, no one should be put in prison for questioning any historical event. What was done to him was truly a crime against humanity. There are several European countries that will also throw one in the gulag for daring to question the Hollywood version, as they call it, of the Holocaust.


They say race does not exist, but at other times, diversity is our greatest strength. What a play on words, uhm?

so the fascist actually won the war after all...thats just sick..anyone can have any kind of completely outrageous theory of any other historical event in the history of man ..but not the holcaust...thats just wrong..bordering on evil

The whole point of this topic is to point out that no historical event being questioned by anyone, even you, should result in someone being put in jail. Five years in a prison for questioning an historical event shows that this is what is "wrong" and "borders on evil". The holocaust is the only historical event that can get you thrown in the gulag and must never be challenged. The Hollywood version of the holocaust is what is always being questioned and it would appear for good reason. The figures don't match up. Don't have to believe me, go google it and find things out for yourself, while we still have the freedom to use the internet for information services.

 

[feduptaxpayer]

Nice to see a reasonable argument, with well-weighted words, civilized speech and good manners.

Anyway:
To question an historical event in itself is not a crime and definitely not a crime in Germany.

What Ernst Zundel did was far worse from that.
If you question that the Americans have not been on the moon, you might be a lunatic or just someone who has some strange ideas.
Questioning the Holocaust is a far more serious thing.
We are talking about one of the central and most important events of modern history.
It has so many implications and it changed the modern history in such a way, that denying it means to deny a lot of events and changes afterwards.
So, it means, that when you are denying the Holocaust, you definitely have an agenda.

Also, to tell a victim of Auschwitz afterwards, that he actually is a liar means that you are willing to scale down what happened to him.
So, as Germany is the country of which the Holocaust came, the majority of the Germans decided, that this part of their history will not be falsified, misjudged or scaled down.
It is what is is.

Just to give you an idea:
How the holocaust is seen by a person is a good lackmus test.
Or to put it vice versa:

The holocaust deniers are neither leftist or liberals.

regards
ze germanguy

So just what did Zundel do that "was far worse"? And why are people like Zundel being put in jail for questioning any historical event, even if it is the holocaust, because that is what this topic was all about. He violated a German law and was thrown in the gulag for five years for daring to deny something. Anyone should be able to deny anything they want to without a threat from big government putting them in jail. That is a crime against humanity and we blame the nazis for doing the samething? We didn't learn anything from history. We just keep repeating it. It is well known that many people have said they were holocaust victims of the Germans but during an investigation they were found out to have fabricated their stories. So just who is telling the truth? That is where I think that Zundel is coming from, he wants to know and learn the truth. Nothing wrong with that is there?

Regards.

 

[feduptaxpayer]

Germanguy, correct me if I am wrong but I do not recolect the German populace having a vote on who, what or how many persons were killed during the war years. And Zudels book questioned how many died not it never happened. Many holocausts have taken place over the centuries all but one are discussed and all but one you can end up in prison for.

One must question why anyone would want to imprison anyone for not believing in something or wanting to discuss the subject. Thats what we did in the middle ages to none believers. If the Holocaust is what it is claimed to be then it should be able to stand up to any amount of examination or scrutiny. Every other atrocity in mans history and there are many are frequently and openly debated.

This is not a German matter but a global one as this historical event affects the whole world unlike any other event. If we decide to imprison those who would challenge such events then we by virtue imprison ourselves to any form of truth lest the real culprits of a crime are exposed.

Locking people up does not stop people thinking what they do, you cannot kill an idea or a thought. It is better to openly debate any such matters to reveal the truth and educate people rather than hide behind threats and punishment.

Well said, and I couldn't have said or explained what you said any better. Yes, there is only one historical event that must never be debated or questioned for fear of persecution and possible jail time. Zundel is one of many thousands today who are questioning the Hollywood version of the holocaust and why not. If there is some doubt about what is being told then let's have a look at that doubt out in the open and correct any errors if neccasary. But don't go throwing people in some gulag for daring to question something. Does this make us look any better than the nazis who basically were doing the samething? Jailing people for their right to question or deny is totally wrong,a crime against humanity.

 

[germanguy]

Funny how stringent people get, when they are not allowed to spread hatred...

Anyway.

The aforesaid feduptaxpayers etc. (well who is not a f. ?) seem to have a very narrow and limited knowledge of the german law.

It is far from true, that simply by denying the holocaust the german state will put you in a gulag (btw, check some links about germany´s prisons, i.e. Strafvollzug ? Wikipedia but you need german to understand it).
The respective law is § 189 and §194 of the Federal Penal Code and states, that the "denigration of the memory of deceased" is prohibited. If the denigration is done via mass media, while in public or in print and is directed against a part of the german populatiion, which was victim of the national socialist regime, the penalty can be up to 5 years of prison.
So, actually not the questioning of historical facts is prohibited, but the denigration of humans.
As the German Constitutional Court has already decided in the 1970s, that stating an opinion is not covered by the freedom of speech, if the opinion is violating the personality of a single person or a group.
Or, to put it otherwise:
I can say, that I do not agree with you or I can call you an asshole. The latter might be true or not, but -according to german law - is not covered by our constitution.
As Jews have been a persecuted group during the NS time, any denigration of this group as victim is persecuted.
A sentence like: " Jews only claim to be victims to press high compensations from germans" wil get you a fine of perhaps 6000,00 EUR.
If you write a book about this subject, the fine will be much higher etc.

So, not the opinion in itself is persecuted in Germany, but the use of an opinion to denigrate victims of the NS regime.

I personally consider myself to be rather liberal and I try to respect any opinion.
I can understand a certain uneasyness about persecuting opinions in general, but in specific cases it can be necessary.

When the Federal Republic was founded in 1949, the Fathers and Mothers of the Basic Law have laid down certain priinciples of which one is the "defending democracy". The enemies of the Republic in the 1920s and 30s used democratic rights to abolish freedom and the republic, therefore this Republic is more on the watch.

Again, the most so-called revisionists are in no way beacons of freedom and liberty.

regards
ze germanguy

 

[feduptaxpayer]

Funny how stringent people get, when they are not allowed to spread hatred...

Anyway.

The aforesaid feduptaxpayers etc. (well who is not a f. ?) seem to have a very narrow and limited knowledge of the german law.

It is far from true, that simply by denying the holocaust the german state will put you in a gulag (btw, check some links about germany´s prisons, i.e. Strafvollzug ? Wikipedia but you need german to understand it).
The respective law is § 189 and §194 of the Federal Penal Code and states, that the "denigration of the memory of deceased" is prohibited. If the denigration is done via mass media, while in public or in print and is directed against a part of the german populatiion, which was victim of the national socialist regime, the penalty can be up to 5 years of prison.
So, actually not the questioning of historical facts is prohibited, but the denigration of humans.
As the German Constitutional Court has already decided in the 1970s, that stating an opinion is not covered by the freedom of speech, if the opinion is violating the personality of a single person or a group.
Or, to put it otherwise:
I can say, that I do not agree with you or I can call you an asshole. The latter might be true or not, but -according to german law - is not covered by our constitution.
As Jews have been a persecuted group during the NS time, any denigration of this group as victim is persecuted.
A sentence like: " Jews only claim to be victims to press high compensations from germans" wil get you a fine of perhaps 6000,00 EUR.
If you write a book about this subject, the fine will be much higher etc.

So, not the opinion in itself is persecuted in Germany, but the use of an opinion to denigrate victims of the NS regime.

I personally consider myself to be rather liberal and I try to respect any opinion.
I can understand a certain uneasyness about persecuting opinions in general, but in specific cases it can be necessary.

When the Federal Republic was founded in 1949, the Fathers and Mothers of the Basic Law have laid down certain priinciples of which one is the "defending democracy". The enemies of the Republic in the 1920s and 30s used democratic rights to abolish freedom and the republic, therefore this Republic is more on the watch.

Again, the most so-called revisionists are in no way beacons of freedom and liberty.

regards
ze germanguy

Whatever. But you cannot believe that denigrating or violating some deceased person or group justifies someone to be put in some gulag for 5 years? Be resonable will you? Five years seems a bit unresonable and a bit too much to waste and ruin someone's life.

So, what you are saying here is that if I want to prove that someone lied, years later after they have been deceased, I guess that I cannot for fear of being persecuted by the state for trying to denigrate whomever. So, the lie goes on without challenge then? Doesn't sound like a good law to me. Sounds more like the law is there to allow coverup of a lie or a crime that may have been committed in the past by a person or group, that might not want it revealed. As you mentioned, "jews only claim to be victims to press high compensations from Germans". This could be one of the main reasons why this law was created? Who knows, eh?

 

[L.K.Eder]

Funny how stringent people get, when they are not allowed to spread hatred...

Anyway.

The aforesaid feduptaxpayers etc. (well who is not a f. ?) seem to have a very narrow and limited knowledge of the german law.

It is far from true, that simply by denying the holocaust the german state will put you in a gulag (btw, check some links about germany´s prisons, i.e. Strafvollzug ? Wikipedia but you need german to understand it).
The respective law is § 189 and §194 of the Federal Penal Code and states, that the "denigration of the memory of deceased" is prohibited. If the denigration is done via mass media, while in public or in print and is directed against a part of the german populatiion, which was victim of the national socialist regime, the penalty can be up to 5 years of prison.
So, actually not the questioning of historical facts is prohibited, but the denigration of humans.
As the German Constitutional Court has already decided in the 1970s, that stating an opinion is not covered by the freedom of speech, if the opinion is violating the personality of a single person or a group.
Or, to put it otherwise:
I can say, that I do not agree with you or I can call you an asshole. The latter might be true or not, but -according to german law - is not covered by our constitution.
As Jews have been a persecuted group during the NS time, any denigration of this group as victim is persecuted.
A sentence like: " Jews only claim to be victims to press high compensations from germans" wil get you a fine of perhaps 6000,00 EUR.
If you write a book about this subject, the fine will be much higher etc.

So, not the opinion in itself is persecuted in Germany, but the use of an opinion to denigrate victims of the NS regime.

I personally consider myself to be rather liberal and I try to respect any opinion.
I can understand a certain uneasyness about persecuting opinions in general, but in specific cases it can be necessary.

When the Federal Republic was founded in 1949, the Fathers and Mothers of the Basic Law have laid down certain priinciples of which one is the "defending democracy". The enemies of the Republic in the 1920s and 30s used democratic rights to abolish freedom and the republic, therefore this Republic is more on the watch.

Again, the most so-called revisionists are in no way beacons of freedom and liberty.

regards
ze germanguy

Whatever. But you cannot believe that denigrating or violating some deceased person or group justifies someone to be put in some gulag for 5 years? Be resonable will you? Five years seems a bit unresonable and a bit too much to waste and ruin someone's life.

So, what you are saying here is that if I want to prove that someone lied, years later after they have been deceased, I guess that I cannot for fear of being persecuted by the state for trying to denigrate whomever. So, the lie goes on without challenge then? Doesn't sound like a good law to me. Sounds more like the law is there to allow coverup of a lie or a crime that may have been committed in the past by a person or group, that might not want it revealed. As you mentioned, "jews only claim to be victims to press high compensations from Germans". This could be one of the main reasons why this law was created? Who knows, eh?

i am fed up with feduptaxpayer.

 

[eots]

Well the day is here and Ernst Zundel is a free man. For those who don't know the story, Zundel was thrown in a German gulag for daring to question a so-called historical event ie: the Holocaust. He was thrown in the gulag for five long years because he dared to question an event that took place over 65 years ago. Whether the Holocaust happenned as they say it did or it didn't, no one should be put in prison for questioning any historical event. What was done to him was truly a crime against humanity. There are several European countries that will also throw one in the gulag for daring to question the Hollywood version, as they call it, of the Holocaust.


They say race does not exist, but at other times, diversity is our greatest strength. What an play on words, uhm?

so the fascist actually won the war after all...thats just sick..anyone can have any kind of completely outrageous theory of any other historical event in the history of man ..but not the holcaust...thats just wrong..bordering on evil

The whole point of this topic is to point out that no historical event being questioned by anyone, even you, should result in someone being put in jail. Five years in a prison for questioning an historical event shows that this is what is "wrong" and "borders on evil". The holocaust is the only historical event that can get you thrown in the gulag and must never be challenged. The Hollywood version of the holocaust is what is always being questioned and it would appear for good reason. The figures don't match up. Don't have to believe me, go google it and find things out for yourself, while we still have the freedom to use the internet for information services.

I think you misunderstand my position...I was saying how I feel about this man being jailed for a opinion

 

[eots]

Funny how stringent people get, when they are not allowed to spread hatred...

Anyway.

The aforesaid feduptaxpayers etc. (well who is not a f. ?) seem to have a very narrow and limited knowledge of the german law.

It is far from true, that simply by denying the holocaust the german state will put you in a gulag (btw, check some links about germany´s prisons, i.e. Strafvollzug ? Wikipedia but you need german to understand it).
The respective law is § 189 and §194 of the Federal Penal Code and states, that the "denigration of the memory of deceased" is prohibited. If the denigration is done via mass media, while in public or in print and is directed against a part of the german populatiion, which was victim of the national socialist regime, the penalty can be up to 5 years of prison.
So, actually not the questioning of historical facts is prohibited, but the denigration of humans.
As the German Constitutional Court has already decided in the 1970s, that stating an opinion is not covered by the freedom of speech, if the opinion is violating the personality of a single person or a group.
Or, to put it otherwise:
I can say, that I do not agree with you or I can call you an asshole. The latter might be true or not, but -according to german law - is not covered by our constitution.
As Jews have been a persecuted group during the NS time, any denigration of this group as victim is persecuted.
A sentence like: " Jews only claim to be victims to press high compensations from germans" wil get you a fine of perhaps 6000,00 EUR.
If you write a book about this subject, the fine will be much higher etc.

So, not the opinion in itself is persecuted in Germany, but the use of an opinion to denigrate victims of the NS regime.

I personally consider myself to be rather liberal and I try to respect any opinion.
I can understand a certain uneasyness about persecuting opinions in general, but in specific cases it can be necessary.

When the Federal Republic was founded in 1949, the Fathers and Mothers of the Basic Law have laid down certain priinciples of which one is the "defending democracy". The enemies of the Republic in the 1920s and 30s used democratic rights to abolish freedom and the republic, therefore this Republic is more on the watch.

Again, the most so-called revisionists are in no way beacons of freedom and liberty.

regards
ze germanguy

What a steaming pile of horseshit

 

[eots]

what if you deny world war 2 ever happened is that illegal ?..what if you believe the whole world is a holographic projection and nothing including the Holocaust ever happend...what if I say the we are butterfly's dreaming we are men.??? and therefore the Holocaust never happened ??

 

[eots]

could the Matrix be a subtle form of Holocaust denial ?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vVi8bZNl10[/ame]

 

[feduptaxpayer]

Funny how stringent people get, when they are not allowed to spread hatred...

Anyway.

The aforesaid feduptaxpayers etc. (well who is not a f. ?) seem to have a very narrow and limited knowledge of the german law.

It is far from true, that simply by denying the holocaust the german state will put you in a gulag (btw, check some links about germany´s prisons, i.e. Strafvollzug ? Wikipedia but you need german to understand it).
The respective law is § 189 and §194 of the Federal Penal Code and states, that the "denigration of the memory of deceased" is prohibited. If the denigration is done via mass media, while in public or in print and is directed against a part of the german populatiion, which was victim of the national socialist regime, the penalty can be up to 5 years of prison.
So, actually not the questioning of historical facts is prohibited, but the denigration of humans.
As the German Constitutional Court has already decided in the 1970s, that stating an opinion is not covered by the freedom of speech, if the opinion is violating the personality of a single person or a group.
Or, to put it otherwise:
I can say, that I do not agree with you or I can call you an asshole. The latter might be true or not, but -according to german law - is not covered by our constitution.
As Jews have been a persecuted group during the NS time, any denigration of this group as victim is persecuted.
A sentence like: " Jews only claim to be victims to press high compensations from germans" wil get you a fine of perhaps 6000,00 EUR.
If you write a book about this subject, the fine will be much higher etc.

So, not the opinion in itself is persecuted in Germany, but the use of an opinion to denigrate victims of the NS regime.

I personally consider myself to be rather liberal and I try to respect any opinion.
I can understand a certain uneasyness about persecuting opinions in general, but in specific cases it can be necessary.

When the Federal Republic was founded in 1949, the Fathers and Mothers of the Basic Law have laid down certain priinciples of which one is the "defending democracy". The enemies of the Republic in the 1920s and 30s used democratic rights to abolish freedom and the republic, therefore this Republic is more on the watch.

Again, the most so-called revisionists are in no way beacons of freedom and liberty.

regards
ze germanguy

Whatever. But you cannot believe that denigrating or violating some deceased person or group justifies someone to be put in some gulag for 5 years? Be resonable will you? Five years seems a bit unresonable and a bit too much to waste and ruin someone's life.

So, what you are saying here is that if I want to prove that someone lied, years later after they have been deceased, I guess that I cannot for fear of being persecuted by the state for trying to denigrate whomever. So, the lie goes on without challenge then? Doesn't sound like a good law to me. Sounds more like the law is there to allow coverup of a lie or a crime that may have been committed in the past by a person or group, that might not want it revealed. As you mentioned, "jews only claim to be victims to press high compensations from Germans". This could be one of the main reasons why this law was created? Who knows, eh?

i am fed up with feduptaxpayer.

Why? At least have the kahonnes to say why? Saying your fedup doesn't say much about you. But then again maybe there is nothing much about you, uhm?


"When people fear government, it is tryanny, when government fears people, it is democracy".

 

[feduptaxpayer]

so the fascist actually won the war after all...thats just sick..anyone can have any kind of completely outrageous theory of any other historical event in the history of man ..but not the holcaust...thats just wrong..bordering on evil

The whole point of this topic is to point out that no historical event being questioned by anyone, even you, should result in someone being put in jail. Five years in a prison for questioning an historical event shows that this is what is "wrong" and "borders on evil". The holocaust is the only historical event that can get you thrown in the gulag and must never be challenged. The Hollywood version of the holocaust is what is always being questioned and it would appear for good reason. The figures don't match up. Don't have to believe me, go google it and find things out for yourself, while we still have the freedom to use the internet for information services.

I think you misunderstand my position...I was saying how I feel about this man being jailed for a opinion

I stand corrected.

 

[L.K.Eder]

Whatever. But you cannot believe that denigrating or violating some deceased person or group justifies someone to be put in some gulag for 5 years? Be resonable will you? Five years seems a bit unresonable and a bit too much to waste and ruin someone's life.

So, what you are saying here is that if I want to prove that someone lied, years later after they have been deceased, I guess that I cannot for fear of being persecuted by the state for trying to denigrate whomever. So, the lie goes on without challenge then? Doesn't sound like a good law to me. Sounds more like the law is there to allow coverup of a lie or a crime that may have been committed in the past by a person or group, that might not want it revealed. As you mentioned, "jews only claim to be victims to press high compensations from Germans". This could be one of the main reasons why this law was created? Who knows, eh?

i am fed up with feduptaxpayer.

Why? At least have the kahonnes to say why? Saying your fedup doesn't say much about you. But then again maybe there is nothing much about you, uhm?


"When people fear government, it is tryanny, when government fears people, it is democracy".

i am fed up with your atrocious spelling, your continuing misuse of the term gulag, your smarmy way of making a martyr out of a propaganda con-artist and your insinuations about german law and german history. fuck off.

 

[germanguy]

It is an interesting fact, that all neo-nazis, holocaust deniers, nazis and other enemies of mankind start to get brave democrats, when someone faces them with severe consequences for spilling hatred and undermining the fundaments of our republic.

We may have an uneasy past, but we Germans have learned the lesson, that you should not give the Nazis again a possibility to ruin this country.

So you do not like our laws, suit yourself, simply do not break them here.
If you want to fight it out, you can go from the lower courts to the German Constitutional Court or the European Court and so on. Do it if you want, but I would bet a rather high amount that you will lose.

And this was that.

no regards
ze germanguy

 

[feduptaxpayer]

i am fed up with feduptaxpayer.

Why? At least have the kahonnes to say why? Saying your fedup doesn't say much about you. But then again maybe there is nothing much about you, uhm?


"When people fear government, it is tryanny, when government fears people, it is democracy".

i am fed up with your atrocious spelling, your continuing misuse of the term gulag, your smarmy way of making a martyr out of a propaganda con-artist and your insinuations about german law and german history. fuck off.

What? Have you never made any spelling errors in your life? Get real will you and get over yourself because you are not so perfect. Besides that, I think that your use of the words "fuck off" is atrocious. What's the matter, can't debate properly so you have to start swearing at people? I am not trying to make a martyr out of anybody. I standup for people who have been denied their right to speak freely and be allowed to have an opinion without having to fear being thrown into some communist "gulag" like what happened to Zundel in Germany. Did you ever think that the people you maybe listening to are nothing more than "propaganda con artists? Think about it. Do some research and you might learn something, if that is possible for you to do. I have news for you buddy boy, there are two sides to every story. It's obvious you only listen to oneside of any story. Sad for you fella.

 

[Dr Grump]

I don't think he should have been jailed. He should be branded a fucking idiot though for sure..

 

[feduptaxpayer]

I don't think he should have been jailed. He should be branded a fucking idiot though for sure..

That is right, he should not have been jailed. And if someone doesn't like what someone else has to say then they have the option to ignore him/her. Although if you did some research on Zundel you would find that he is no f'n idiot. And if you have never taken the time to do a little research then maybe someone could brand you an f'n idiot for not knowing what you are talking about. It's funny how when people don't like what others have to say they are immediately labeled some ignorant rude name. It just shows the lack of intelligence on their part. But hey, the world is full of f'n idiots like that. What the hell.

 

[feduptaxpayer]

It is an interesting fact, that all neo-nazis, holocaust deniers, nazis and other enemies of mankind start to get brave democrats, when someone faces them with severe consequences for spilling hatred and undermining the fundaments of our republic.

We may have an uneasy past, but we Germans have learned the lesson, that you should not give the Nazis again a possibility to ruin this country.

So you do not like our laws, suit yourself, simply do not break them here.
If you want to fight it out, you can go from the lower courts to the German Constitutional Court or the European Court and so on. Do it if you want, but I would bet a rather high amount that you will lose.

And this was that.

no regards


I don't think that it was the nazis that ruined your country so much as the communists did, well at least half of it. And the communists were far more brutal and murdered far more people then the nazis ever did. It's interesting how Hollywood and the media always make movies or TV programs about the evils of nazis and nazism but when it comes to the evils of communism they seem to be very quiet. Why is that? Zundel and many others know why and that is why he spent five years in the gulag for. You need to read a little more.

Btw, you are right I would not bet anything either because I know what the outcome would be. I don't think that Germans understand the true meaning of "freedom of speech".

And this was that.

Ditto(no regards)

 

[L.K.Eder]

Why? At least have the kahonnes to say why? Saying your fedup doesn't say much about you. But then again maybe there is nothing much about you, uhm?


"When people fear government, it is tryanny, when government fears people, it is democracy".

i am fed up with your atrocious spelling, your continuing misuse of the term gulag, your smarmy way of making a martyr out of a propaganda con-artist and your insinuations about german law and german history. fuck off.

What? Have you never made any spelling errors in your life? Get real will you and get over yourself because you are not so perfect. Besides that, I think that your use of the words "fuck off" is atrocious. What's the matter, can't debate properly so you have to start swearing at people? I am not trying to make a martyr out of anybody. I standup for people who have been denied their right to speak freely and be allowed to have an opinion without having to fear being thrown into some communist "gulag" like what happened to Zundel in Germany. Did you ever think that the people you maybe listening to are nothing more than "propaganda con artists? Think about it. Do some research and you might learn something, if that is possible for you to do. I have news for you buddy boy, there are two sides to every story. It's obvious you only listen to oneside of any story. Sad for you fella.

here is a pro-tip: fuck off when told to fuck off!

 

[eots]

It is an interesting fact, that all neo-nazis, holocaust deniers, nazis and other enemies of mankind start to get brave democrats, when someone faces them with severe consequences for spilling hatred and undermining the fundaments of our republic.

We may have an uneasy past, but we Germans have learned the lesson, that you should not give the Nazis again a possibility to ruin this country.

So you do not like our laws, suit yourself, simply do not break them here.
If you want to fight it out, you can go from the lower courts to the German Constitutional Court or the European Court and so on. Do it if you want, but I would bet a rather high amount that you will lose.

And this was that.

no regards
ze germanguy

If you can be jailed for questioning a historical event the NAZIS did ruin the country,Why should there be this one sacred cow in all the history of mankind ?