CDZ Wow! They are gonna pass it, so I'm going to take it, but wow, just wow!

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by usmbguest5318, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. usmbguest5318
    Offline

    usmbguest5318 Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Messages:
    10,929
    Thanks Received:
    1,607
    Trophy Points:
    290
    Location:
    D.C.
    Ratings:
    +5,766
    You just keep thinking that....
     
  2. yiostheoy
    Offline

    yiostheoy Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2016
    Messages:
    20,330
    Thanks Received:
    1,879
    Trophy Points:
    290
    Location:
    Rocky Mountains
    Ratings:
    +9,866
    Now you get to join the Romney And Trump club -- high incomes and low taxes.

    Enjoy !!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  3. yiostheoy
    Offline

    yiostheoy Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2016
    Messages:
    20,330
    Thanks Received:
    1,879
    Trophy Points:
    290
    Location:
    Rocky Mountains
    Ratings:
    +9,866
    I believe that the main problem at the Federal level is that they (the Feds) are still operating on a war footing such as during WW2 and Korea. They (the Feds) never stood down or lowered taxes after WW2. As a result they have an unquenchable hunger and thirst for mo money.

    The Feds need to cut their spending by half. This includes massive cuts in the military (Trump wants more military spending) and getting rid of foreign aid completely and cutting Federal programs that the States should be running themselves, such as education and welfare.

    Medicare is killing the Federal budget and it should probably be transferred to the States.

    And the USA should NOT be the world's policeman.
     
  4. usmbguest5318
    Offline

    usmbguest5318 Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Messages:
    10,929
    Thanks Received:
    1,607
    Trophy Points:
    290
    Location:
    D.C.
    Ratings:
    +5,766
    Here are some of the "burdens" that the government imposes on citizens and are paid for by the "burdensome" taxes Americans pay:
    • The FAA. Crashes are a rarity here, thanks to equipment safety tests and massively successful air flight controlling. The result is the safest air transportation system on the planet.
    • Medicaid: private sector insurance companies make money by ditching their customers when they get very sick. Medicaid picks up the castoffs. Would you rather they remain infirmed, or worse die, instead of receiving healthcare?
    • Social Security: What if Mr. Bush had succeeded in privatizing SS before the markets crashed? Imagine how many old people would be working at WalMart, since their SS would have been cut in half.

      David M. Kennedy, the Stanford historian and author of ''Freedom From Fear: The American People in Depression and War,'' said that he found it paradoxical that the current debate over Social Security ''is being couched in terms of individual ownership and privatization of the system, when those kinds of ideas deeply informed the way the original Social Security system was put together.''
    • SCHIP: Healthcare insurance for children who would not otherwise have it -- enormously preventive of school absence, long-term illness, loss of physical and mental development
    • School hot lunch programs: For many children, their only serious nutrition all day every day. What industry would do it?
    • The Soil Conservation Service: though bureaucratic, there is no private industry comparable. How vastly different would America be without the wetlands your dad and a thousand like him have created.
    • Head Start: kids from homes that have seriously dysfunctional emotional and learning environments have benefited enormously.
    • E911 commissions: how long does it take an ambulance or fire truck to reach you if a child who can call 911 can’t tell the operator an address?
    • National Institutes of Health -- known around the world for ground-breaking medical research.
    • Open meetings laws for city, county, and state government office -- nothing like it at all in the private sector. But if public officials make decisions without notifying us, they can get in big trouble.
    • Public health services -- how many lives have been saved by free and low-cost immunizations?
      • Scientists at the National Institutes of Health sequenced the human genome, which set a new course for developing ways to diagnose and treat diseases like cancer, Parkinson's Disease and Alzheimer's Disease.
      • How do we know that the virulence of H1N1 is less than expected? Who is telling the world that US pork is safe to eat? How do we know whether an illness is H1N1 or not? It’s all the CDC.
      • Military doctors eliminated disease like typhoid and yellow fever.
      • The National Cancer Institute has made many discoveries in the treatment of the disease.
    • Construction and maintenance of interstate highways link the country. Because of our interstate highway network, we enjoy the most extensive road system in the world.
    • The FDIC: how safe are your savings and checking account funds on deposit? Prior to the FDIC, if your bank got greedy and lent more than it could support and, in turn, went bankrupt, depositors' had no recompense because "you can't get blood from a turnip."
    • College loan programs help millions who might otherwise not be able to afford higher education.
    • U.S. Postal Service inspection programs help prevent mail fraud.
    • Myriad standards established not only the NIST but also by the body of consumer focused agencies and departments -- For example:
    • Organic foods are certified thus by U.S. Department of Agriculture standards. Absent those standards, "organic" means whatever the grower/seller says it means.
      • how does one know that the Adderall one is really Adderall, and really the dosage I’m told? Much of the world does not. The FDA constantly catches businesses attempting to cheat.
      • Uniform Building Codes
      • Public water systems provide safe drinking water based on standards set by the EPA.
    • OSHA regulations and inspections protect America’s workforce by limiting exposure to toxic chemicals.
    • The National Archives is the nation’s record keeper, overseeing the Declaration of Independence, Constitution and Bill of Rights.
    • Bank regulations limit your loss to $50 if someone steals money from your account with your ATM card.
    • Copyright and patent laws protect an invention or creative work from being stolen.
    • The U.S. Mint prints currency and manufactures coin. Even fifth graders know of the calamity that was currency in the U.S. prior to our central banking system.
    • Federal dams provide electrical power, flood control and irrigation.
    • The U.S. Weather Service provides storm and hurricane warnings.
    • The Federal Housing Authority and the Veterans Administration help Americans become homeowners.
    • Consulates and embassies help U.S. citizens traveling abroad.
    • FEMA provides support for victims of hurricanes, floods or other disasters.
    • The National Park Service maintains several thousand miles of trail for park visitors.
    • The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers helps maintain the nation’s ports, harbors and navigation channels.
    • Veterans receive education assistance through the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs’ GI Bill.
    • The Library of Congress is the largest library in the world with millions of books, recordings, photographs, maps and manuscripts in its collections, which are made available to the public.
    • The Transportation Security Administration monitors the 39 billion tons of cargo that are transported annually by passenger and freight carriers.
    • The Small Business Administration helps Americans start, grow and build businesses.
    • The Americans with Disabilities Act guarantees equal opportunity for people with disabilities in public accommodations, employment, transportation, state and local government services and telecommunications.
    • Labor laws guarantee you cannot be prematurely replaced if you strike over unfair labor practices.
    • Economic statistics-keeping helps track inflation.
    • The “Do Not Call” Registry makes it easier for consumers to stop getting telemarketing calls that they don’t want.
    And those aren't all the "burdens," as you call them, that government imposes. Do you or other citizens overtly avail themselves of every one of those things? No, of course, not, but what folks who, like you perceive funding the government and its undertakings a "burden" completely ignore is that a good number of the things funded by our taxes are so ubiquitous, expected and glibly used that you take for granted that you have them because of the taxes all Americans pay and have paid, not in spite of those payments.

    As Mount Holyoke politics professor Douglas J. Amy writes:

    Conservatives like to portray America as the land of “rugged individualism” where people would rather go it alone than ever depend on government for anything. And surveys show that a large majority of Americans believe that people should take individual responsibility for their lives. But these surveys also reveal that surprisingly large numbers of people believe that the government should take the lead and be responsible for dealing with a wide variety of social and economic problems. 71% of Americans believe that the government has an important or essential responsibility for seeing to it that anyone who wants a job can have one. 63% believe that the government has an important or essential responsibility to provide citizens with adequate housing; and 78% of us think that the government has an important or essential responsibility to provide citizens with good medical care. Similarly large majorities strongly support the notion that it is the responsibility of the public sector to “guarantee a quality public education,” “protect the environment,” and “ensure equal opportunity for everyone.” Clearly when we stop to think about what government can do for us in specific areas, we don’t believe that we should be going it alone without any help from the government.​

    Therein lies the cognitive incongruity you and others exhibit when you make remarks such as the one quoted above. Quite simply, one cannot and would not have the things noted above and so much more without the government.

    Well, that you think that I was even so much as intimating such an absurd notion highlights another dimension of your either cognitive myopia or utter ignorance. Of course governments aren't businesses; government initiatives aren't driven or undertaken in dogged pursuit of self profit for the government itself. Rather they are undertaken for the overall and primary benefit of the citizenry. No business has "everyone else's" interests in mind when undertaking to do anything; businesses have only business owners' profit interest in mind.

    The business of business is business and the goal of business is to earn a profit in the provision of goods and services. The business of government is service -- well managed, one hopes, but never at a profit. There is no such thing as government money. Governments have no money; they have only what they receive from their citizens, either in taxes or by inflation. And if government accrues profit it can only have done so by taxing too much or eroding the value of the citizens' income and savings -- in either case doing harm, not good, to the people who have created it for the advantages such a common effort is presumed to bestow.

    Businesses are efficiency maximizers; governments are efficiency satisficers. (See also: "Maximizing and Satisficing in Decision-Making Dyads" and "Satisficing Consequentialism") We might well save a considerable amount of money by delegating our national security to mercenary armies drawn from other countries (as opposed to keeping a high-cost standing army and paying U.S. wages to private combat zone contractors), thus erasing the need to maintain a perpetual and costly military infrastructure. We could assign the processing of Social Security checks and welfare payments to low-wage workers in Madras or Oaxaca. State governments could close welfare offices and require that all transactions with government be conducted electronically, with no recourse to potentially sympathetic human beings. These are choices governments make reluctantly and businesses make routinely.

    Consider the question of earned merit. In business, very much a merit-based enterprise, one's employment is continued so long as he or she maintains sufficient production. Producers continue to receive paychecks; non-producers are cut loose. That may seem unfair to the bleeding-hearted, but it is productivity that provides profit and insufficient productivity that drains profit and therefore survivability. Distinguish that ethic from the commitment of government to provide a safety net for those who are, quite often due to no fault of their own, non-productive members of society (at least as measured by the workplace). In business, the non-productive are cut loose; in government, the non-productive are cut checks. That is because the society as a whole, with the full support of Republicans and Democrats alike, believes widows, orphans, the mentally or physically infirm deserve sustenance and protection. Men and women whose careers are in business may, in fact probably do, share that belief, but it flies directly in the face of a belief in maximizing profit and winning bonuses but cutting loose the deadwood.

    Notwithstanding that governments are not profit-seeking organizatins, the fact remains that citizens must pay for the services their governments provide. Taxes are how they pay for them. Construing that I may have implied or meant anything other than that is "on you."
     
  5. william the wie
    Online

    william the wie Gold Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    12,002
    Thanks Received:
    1,395
    Trophy Points:
    265
    Ratings:
    +4,875
    credibility is shortlived given the reconciliation process the house is going to have to take another vote tomorrow because of the senate Parliamentarian' rulings to take an obvious example.
     
  6. usmbguest5318
    Offline

    usmbguest5318 Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Messages:
    10,929
    Thanks Received:
    1,607
    Trophy Points:
    290
    Location:
    D.C.
    Ratings:
    +5,766
    I'm willing to be fair. "Sh*t" people say need only be true at the moment when they utter their remarks. I realize things change and I recognize that when discussing a dynamic matter, things can change faster than all speakers/writers on the matter can keep up with. Things changing doesn't make a speaker a liar, thus incredible, nor does one's simply being honestly mistaken.
     
  7. Votto
    Offline

    Votto Gold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Messages:
    16,270
    Thanks Received:
    2,488
    Trophy Points:
    280
    Ratings:
    +12,859
    I never really understood this type of thinking.

    So what if Joe Shmoe millionaire pays a million dollars in taxes or not money in taxes? It's not like the government is sitting there thinking, "Gee, if we don't get more tax money then we will have to stop paying this other money to the poor".

    No, the government runs trillion dollar deficits ever year. They could care less how much money they take in, they will spend what they want to spend either way.

    The real issue here is creating Marxist class warfare. That is the real heart of the matter. They want people to get angry at the rich and resentful, so the rich in the DNC can demagogue their way into office.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Votto
    Offline

    Votto Gold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Messages:
    16,270
    Thanks Received:
    2,488
    Trophy Points:
    280
    Ratings:
    +12,859
    If liberals in liberal states think that the corporate tax rate should be increased or the personal incomes of evil rich folk should be increased, then why don't the blue states do just that? Why not just tax them all at a 90% rate if it is all so wonderful to do?
     
  9. william the wie
    Online

    william the wie Gold Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    12,002
    Thanks Received:
    1,395
    Trophy Points:
    265
    Ratings:
    +4,875
    Government accounting is also bizarre and economic accounting is worse.

    2.4% GDP growth is budget neutral so we are currently seeing a contribution rate of 0.6% possible debt reduction per qtr. If the Reagan and Irish examples are valid we will see an annual debt reduction of 5.6%

    If migration and output cause a red state output rise to 10T p a the possible contribution margin would be 42.4% and a blue state real estate crash in the 100T range, that would not budge the needle because only new goods and services count towards GDP.

    Trying to figure out the new tax reform's impact on the economy is going to be very strange.
     
  10. william the wie
    Online

    william the wie Gold Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    12,002
    Thanks Received:
    1,395
    Trophy Points:
    265
    Ratings:
    +4,875
    True but this situation is a pain in the butt.
     

Share This Page