World's largest solar plant now online

[elektra]

So what?

^^^^^^^^^^ THAT is the reaction of a True Denier out of ammo..

You shouldn't have wasted so many posts attempting to defend an undefendable claim.. That's what.
And then shouting "So What?" only makes you look like you don't care you wasted your time (or the topic)..

SOMEDAY -- IvanPah might work as planned.. But even then --- it solves virtually no grid capacity problem for California.. It's just an interesting (and very expensive) experiment at this point.. Bravo to the brave souls who's money got flushed...

My claims are facts.

1) Ivanpah produces electricity - and will continue to produce electricity - producing a tiny fraction of the GHGs that a fossil fuel-powered plant would of the same capacity would produce.

HOWEVER

2) Whether Ivanpah works better than could have ever been hoped or burns to the ground in a heap of slag HAS NO BEARING WHATSOEVER ON THE VALIDITY OF AGW.

So, whatever comments you may have about the operation of the plant, my sole and appropriate response is "SO WHAT?"

And I didn't waste any posts. I told you long ago that the function of Ivanpah was irrelevant. Anything you posted beyond that point is on your head.

Function of Ivanpah is irrelevant in a thread strictly about Ivanpah? ha ha ha (that is lol outloud so you can hear it).

Abraham, how come you numbered four points as two? I guess details are not important, what difference do they make, right.

1a) Ivanpah is a complete failure and has not delivered 1 watt of electricity to 1 single home at a cost of 2.2 billion dollars of which the taxpayer's of the east coast must pay the banks 1.6 billion dollars under the Dictate of rogue President.

1b) Ivanpah may or may not continue to operate, it can operate but only with its Natural Gas boiler which is Ivanpah's heart.

1c) A tiny fraction of GHG's?, A Fossil Fuel plant is constructed with a Tiny Fraction of the GHG's emitted as compared to any Solar Plant. Equivalent? A 2.2 Billion Dollar solar plant has no equivalent, there is no Natural Gas plant that is so inefficient. There is no Natural Gas power plant that produces and delivers next to no power.

1cc) There is no Natural Gas plant equivalent to the worlds largest monstrosities.

2) The Validity of AGW? AbraHAM's Validity has no Bearing on what AbraHAM chooses to believe and worship.

Nope, AbraHAM did not waste any posts, not even words, like

My claims are facts.

AbraHAM can even define words, powerful you are AbraHAM.

No Abraham, a claim is a claim, even if AbraHAM says it. At least AbraHAM has admitted that all of AbraHAM's "facts" were in fact, simply "claims".

Finally, so no more wasted posts, AbraHAM, if you keep repeating yourself your wasting posts which contributes more "GHG's" than our atmosphere can handle, or is CO2 not a problem?

 

[polarbear]

You can find almost everything you search for with Google who is one of the main partners of "Brightsource", but when it comes to find Ivanpah performance data you hit a stone wall.
You have to dig deep to get the current total thermal solar output for the California "Solar Energy Generating Systems (SEGS)"

http://www.caiso.com/market/Pages/ReportsBulletins/DailyRenewablesWatch.aspx
They publish some dates in plain text but most of them are in pdf and with minimal detail information.

But you can still get it in detail for any date see below (***)

For some reason "SEGS" prefers to lump all the other 9 "Solar Thermal" power plants together with "Ivanpah1-3" even though they must have individual data for each to do so:

(SEGS) in California, with the combined capacity from three separate locations at 354 megawatts
It consists of nine solar power plants in California's Mojave Desert, where insolation is among the best available in the United States. SEGS I–II (44 MW) are located at Daggett (34°51′45″N 116°49′45″W), SEGS III–VII (150 MW) are installed at Kramer Junction, and SEGS VIII–IX (160 MW) are placed at Harper Lake (35°02′N 117°21′W).[1] NextEra Energy Resources operates and partially owns the plants located at Kramer Junction and Harper Lake.

If you want to see the total "Solar Thermal" power output broken down by the hour then you have to paste in this URL:

http://content.caiso.com/green/renewrpt/20140325_DailyRenewablesWatch.txt


(***)
For any other date change the numbers I highlighted in red for example Feb25.
http://content.caiso.com/green/renewrpt/20140225_DailyRenewablesWatch.txt

02 is the month and 25 the day
It was zero up until 09:00 then 85,222,243,270,284,313,322,256, down to 84 MW at 17:00 and then zero at 18:00 for everything they got as "Solar Thermal" in California, including Ivanpah

When they had their "Opening ceremony" on Feb the 13th they must have tried their best, but there is nothing to brag about in the combined total solar thermal power output for that day either:

http://content.caiso.com/green/renewrpt/20140213_DailyRenewablesWatch.txt

Nothing at all until 10 am then it starts at 60 MW, climbs to a maximum of 269 MW at 18:00 and is down to zero again at 6 in the afternoon.

Then the day after the grand opening ceremony :
http://content.caiso.com/green/renewrpt/20140214_DailyRenewablesWatch.txt
Nothing till 9am then 14 MW a maximum of 117 MW at noon then everything was down to zero at 6 in the afternoon


...and on the 15th it was zero MW all day long and at stayed around 120 MW tops for about 5 hours each day for the next 5 days.
http://content.caiso.com/green/renewrpt/20140215_DailyRenewablesWatch.txt



Nuclear was most of the time at a steady 1130 MW, conventional thermal at 11 000- 13 000 MW

 

[elektra]

So is it operating or not. There seems to be some contention on this thread that this site is not up. Problems have been encountered. Have you posted that yet?

The site is not operating. As far as the problems at Ivanpah, the owners have been silent,
Google is one of the owners, I imagine Google will not link to news stories about the problems.

Either way, this is the very last CSP of this type that will ever be built. It has proven itself to be a failure.

The cost is prohibitive, this one was built because Obama gave 1.6$ billion to the project.

Further, you must take public land, land that is suppose to be ours forever, and give it to the private corporations. not many Corporations have the cash to buy 17 square miles.

The cost to the environment is too great.

The amount of water is extreme, and that its in the desert, and california is in another drought season, which sometimes lasts as long as 7 years.

And with an unproven capacity factor of 31.7%, it will not provide a miniscule amount of electricity needed to simply pump water, which in California is 80% of our electrical usage (agriculture and industry use 90% of the water in California).

You've got an amazing penchant for posting falsehoods.

— All Three Units of 392 megawatt Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System Now Delivering Solar Power to California’s Electric Grid —

World?s Largest Solar Thermal Power Project at Ivanpah Achieves Commercial Operation

Solar thermal has not failed. The plant is doing precisely what it was built to do at precisely the predicted cost. No more solar thermal plants will get built for the foreseeable future because the cost of photovoltaic and natural gas have fallen. The dropping cost of PV has made the idea of distributed power generation far more feasible. We're all going to start putting PV panels on our roofs.

The government did not give 1.6 billion for the construction of the plant. They gave a loan guarantee on which they have not had to pay out one cent. They DID give Bright Source a tax credit because the plant is not nuclear and does not emit GHGs. This will total about $800 million over the next two years.

The land used by Ivanpah - in fact the public land available for use by wind and solar concerns (and these are rights of way vice leases since no mineral extraction is performed - the land could be restored to its original conditions simply by removing the installed equipment) - are less than 3% of the land available for lease for oil, coal, gas and mineral extraction. http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40806.pdf

The amount of water used by Ivanpah is less than a nearby golf course uses to water two of its holes. Water is NOT used to cool the working fluid. The only water used at the plant is keeping the mirrors clean.

I don't like being called a liar missy. Put up or shut up, as the saying goes. I want to know specifically what statements of mine you believe were lies and the evidence that makes you think so. And let me say up front that I don't call mistakes, lies; else I would have had more than a few additional comments for you along the way.

ps: if you don't like my absences, don't get involved with people who still work for a living.

You are either a complete idiot or a liar. You go to Brightsource, the company covering up the inoperation of Ivanpah? You post a press release? Which I already pointed out was false, in light of the dedication ceremony by Energy Secretary Moniz on the same exact day? On the 13th its dedicated and declared operational while Obamas man Moniz is there.

Energy Secretary Moniz Dedicates World?s Largest Concentrating Solar Power Project | Department of Energy



How do I know its not operational?

California ISO - Todays Outlook



20 mwh of total Solar, not just CSP, this includes photovoltaic.

Given Ivanpah is only capable of 105 mwh and this figure include all solar, what is going on?

Is Ivanpah Online? | CleanTechnica

To further complicate matters, January ISO data shows practically no CSP output during nearly all days in January 2014, meaning that neither SEGS nor Ivanpah were what we would call operational.

Abraham is looking at a Press Release by the owner of Ivanpah for power output?

Elektra is looking at data put out by the California Grid Operators.

Which is more accurate, a press release from the owners (Google, Brightsource, NRG) the day the President sends the Energy Secretary to Ivanpah to dedicate it, or the Data from the grid operators?

Of course, I already posted this, in this thread, which Abraham ignores for three days, and then Abraham comes back and says I am a liar and posts a press release like this information is not in this thread already.

Is Ivanpah Online? | CleanTechnica

Operational or Non-operational?
California ISO does provide more clues to this mystery. The organization keeps a list of “curtailed and non-operational” power plants, and Ivanpah’s three units have been on this list for months. During four of the first five days of February, at least one unit was listed as fully curtailed or non-operational, and the other two partially curtailed.

The position of the three units have switched on this list. On February 2nd, it was unit 2 that was fully off-line, with the other two partially restricted; and on February 3rd, 4th, and 5th, unit 3 was fully off-line. On February 1st, all three units are listed as only partially “curtailed or non-operational.”

So in the end, we simply don’t know how much power is being produced by Ivanpah at this time. It is likely that as the units ramp up for full production, one or the other is being taken off-line for technical tweaking.

I’m willing to wager that construction contractor Bechtel and Brightsource are making one Hell of an effort to get everything up and running for next week, when Energy Secretary Ernie Moniz flies out from DC for the big unveiling. Around February 13th, 2014 we are likely to see a big jump in solar power output in California

You can find almost everything you search for with Google who is one of the main partners of "Brightsource", but when it comes to find Ivanpah performance data you hit a stone wall.
You have to dig deep to get the current total thermal solar output for the California "Solar Energy Generating Systems (SEGS)"

California ISO - Daily renewables watch
They publish some dates in plain text but most of them are in pdf and with minimal detail information.

But you can still get it in detail for any date see below (***)

For some reason "SEGS" prefers to lump all the other 9 "Solar Thermal" power plants together with "Ivanpah1-3" even though they must have individual data for each to do so:

(SEGS) in California, with the combined capacity from three separate locations at 354 megawatts
It consists of nine solar power plants in California's Mojave Desert, where insolation is among the best available in the United States. SEGS I–II (44 MW) are located at Daggett (34°51′45″N 116°49′45″W), SEGS III–VII (150 MW) are installed at Kramer Junction, and SEGS VIII–IX (160 MW) are placed at Harper Lake (35°02′N 117°21′W).[1] NextEra Energy Resources operates and partially owns the plants located at Kramer Junction and Harper Lake.

If you want to see the total "Solar Thermal" power output broken down by the hour then you have to paste in this URL:

http://content.caiso.com/green/renewrpt/20140325_DailyRenewablesWatch.txt


(***)
For any other date change the numbers I highlighted in red for example Feb25.
http://content.caiso.com/green/renewrpt/20140225_DailyRenewablesWatch.txt

02 is the month and 25 the day
It was zero up until 09:00 then 85,222,243,270,284,313,322,256, down to 84 MW at 17:00 and then zero at 18:00 for everything they got as "Solar Thermal" in California, including Ivanpah

When they had their "Opening ceremony" on Feb the 13th they must have tried their best, but there is nothing to brag about in the combined total solar thermal power output for that day either:

http://content.caiso.com/green/renewrpt/20140213_DailyRenewablesWatch.txt

Nothing at all until 10 am then it starts at 60 MW, climbs to a maximum of 269 MW at 18:00 and is down to zero again at 6 in the afternoon.

Then the day after the grand opening ceremony :
http://content.caiso.com/green/renewrpt/20140214_DailyRenewablesWatch.txt
Nothing till 9am then 14 MW a maximum of 117 MW at noon then everything was down to zero at 6 in the afternoon


...and on the 15th it was zero MW all day long and at stayed around 120 MW tops for about 5 hours each day for the next 5 days.
http://content.caiso.com/green/renewrpt/20140215_DailyRenewablesWatch.txt



Nuclear was most of the time at a steady 1130 MW, conventional thermal at 11 000- 13 000 MW

These links have been posted and quoted and ignored.

 

[flacaltenn]

Interesting that only "small hydro" shows in that CALISO graph..
Where is LARGE hydro ?? Plenty of that in Northern Cali..
Must have been purged from the list of Cali "renewables"..

They got the mirrors at Ivanpah --- but they forgot the smoke...
I'm figuring what happened is that the mirrors servos stuck at the 7PM position
and 80,000 (whatever) of them have to be hand-cranked back to the mid-range home position...

Abe and Rocks are volunteering as mirror crankers...

 

[elektra]

in MURICA too deniers:

The World's Largest Solar Plant Started Creating Electricity Today

The Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System is now operational and delivering solar electricity to California customers. At full capacity, the facility's trio of 450-foot high towers produces a gross total of 392 megawatts (MW) of solar power, enough electricity to provide 140,000 California homes with clean energy and avoid 400,000 metric tons of carbon dioxide per year, equal to removing 72,000 vehicles off the road.

But there is another thread that says this failed, I wonder how many in this thread made false claims, other than the author of the op.

 

[Billy_Bob]

in MURICA too deniers:

The World's Largest Solar Plant Started Creating Electricity Today

The Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System is now operational and delivering solar electricity to California customers. At full capacity, the facility's trio of 450-foot high towers produces a gross total of 392 megawatts (MW) of solar power, enough electricity to provide 140,000 California homes with clean energy and avoid 400,000 metric tons of carbon dioxide per year, equal to removing 72,000 vehicles off the road.

But there is another thread that says this failed, I wonder how many in this thread made false claims, other than the author of the op.

Less than 20% of its rated capacity.. IS FAILURE!

 

[Crick]

"So far, however, the plant is producing about half of its expected annual output for 2014, according to calculations by the California Energy Commission."

 

[Old Rocks]

Another typical Billy Boob lie.

 

[westwall]

Another typical Billy Boob lie.

Rated capacity.....Expected annual output....are different. Doesn't matter though. Ivanpah is a failure. A big fat ugly failure. And you all love it!

 

[Billy_Bob]

Another typical Billy Boob lie.

Tell me moron, what is its designed capacity? Your the Liar. You project to much..

 

[Billy_Bob]

"So far, however, the plant is producing about half of its expected annual output for 2014, according to calculations by the California Energy Commission."

20% of its designed output.... LOL Solar arrays are only designed for 40% maximum efficiency because the sun only shines during the day...



Worse still is we have to keep online Coal Fired generation too.. because it is unreliable.

 

[elektra]

But Obama used Ivanpah in speech proclaiming how great Ivanpah is, a shining example of how smart Scientists of the Government, are. The Secretary of Energy even said it worked great.

Milestone Ivanpah Solar Plant Formally Opens Concentrating Solar Rewire KCET

Moniz lauded the plant in a press release issued before the ceremony, to which ReWire was not invited for some reason. "The Ivanpah project is a shining example of how America is becoming a world leader in solar energy," said Moniz. "As the President made clear in the State of the Union, we must continue to move toward a cleaner energy economy, and this project shows that building a clean energy economy creates jobs, curbs greenhouse gas emissions, and fosters American innovation."

The Department of Energy backed Ivanpah's construction with $1.6 billion in loan guarantees from its Loan Programs Office. At the ceremony, NRG Energy president Tom Doyle credited that loan guarantee with the plant's successful completion. (Though BrightSource developed the tech used at ISEGS, the plant is co-owned and co-managed by NRG Energy with Google owning part of the plant as well.)