Will Americans outlast the insurgency?

[LuvRPgrl]

Bringing the troops home now isnt even a topic.

It WONT happen anytime soon.

The political figures of America that have any influence on the decision, wouldnt dare take part in any vote to bring them home, it would be political suicide.

If the military were brought home now, any poliltician who had a hand in it would be held responsable by their political opponents for the resulting chaos, civil war and bad end results in Iraq. Their political opponent could then accuse them of bring the troops home to early so that those who did die, died for nothing.

Anyone who is speaking out about bringing them home, or is critical of the handlling of the war, are only doing it for political reasons, they dont actually want to see anything done other than what is happening right now.

 

[Annie]

Bringing the troops home now isnt even a topic.

It WONT happen anytime soon.

The political figures of America that have any influence on the decision, wouldnt dare take part in any vote to bring them home, it would be political suicide.

If the military were brought home now, any poliltician who had a hand in it would be held responsable by their political opponents for the resulting chaos, civil war and bad end results in Iraq. Their political opponent could then accuse them of bring the troops home to early so that those who did die, died for nothing.

Anyone who is speaking out about bringing them home, or is critical of the handlling of the war, are only doing it for political reasons, they dont actually want to see anything done other than what is happening right now.

Yes it is a topic. The drawdown will start soon, though we will have troops there for the forseeable future. As the Iraqis are more able to provide self-protection, we will begin withdrawing. On another post somewhere we were reminded that we have only begun pulling out of Europe after 60 years from WWII; we are still in the Balkans; we are still in Korea after 50 years; etc.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Yes it is a topic. The drawdown will start soon, though we will have troops there for the forseeable future. As the Iraqis are more able to provide self-protection, we will begin withdrawing. On another post somewhere we were reminded that we have only begun pulling out of Europe after 60 years from WWII; we are still in the Balkans; we are still in Korea after 50 years; etc.

What I mean by it isnt a topic, is that all discussions are moot, what is gonna happen is gonna happen. They will be withdrawn when, and only when the Iraqis are capable of handling the duties themselves. NO amount of protests, or anything else is gonna change that.

 

[deaddude]

You made the statement, YOU provide the facts. PROVE Its true.

Seems the 52% level has been pretty steady for the last year. And besides, thats only questioning if it was worth it, not IF WE SHOULD STAY

Lets see, PJ made a statement and provided a link to back up his claim, RWA made a statement with no evidence to back it up whatsoever. His best "fact" was to repeat the same statement in his next post. An argument (even if it is a counter argument) does require evidence to back it up.

Or do you exempt RWA from the same rules of debate that you apply to PJ simply because you agree with RWA's position.

 

[Gunny]

Lets see, PJ made a statement and provided a link to back up his claim, RWA made a statement with no evidence to back it up whatsoever. His best "fact" was to repeat the same statement in his next post. An argument (even if it is a counter argument) does require evidence to back it up.

Or do you exempt RWA from the same rules of debate that you apply to PJ simply because you agree with RWA's position.

Posting polls as evidence to back an argument is shakey at best.

 

[deaddude]

Posting polls as evidence to back an argument is shakey at best.

I would hold that it is better than posting nothing as evidence. Yet everyone jumps PJ and no one jumps RWA.

 

[dilloduck]

I would hold that it is better than posting nothing as evidence. Yet everyone jumps PJ and no one jumps RWA.

I would say that's a pretty accurate assesment of how this board operates.

 

[deaddude]

I would say that's a pretty accurate assesment of how this board operates.

As a biased and partizan out put for you guys to pat eachother on the back and bash libs? How exactly does that make you better than DU?

 

[dilloduck]

As a biased and partizan out put for you guys to pat eachother on the back and bash libs? How exactly does that make you better than DU?

I never claimed that this board was better than any other. If you think it is just a bunch of back patters so be it. I have however seen some of these "back patters" go at each others throats when the topic changes.

 

[deaddude]

I have also seen many of the conservative members on this board go at each others throats, usually where one of them is more moderate on a particular issue than the other. However I have also seen PJ get grief for using a poll as evidence, and RWA get away with providing no evidence at all.

 

[sitarro]

Posting polls as evidence to back an argument is shakey at best.

I agree Gunny, polls of the amazingly uninformed American public are meaningless. All they reflect is how well the propaganda machine is working. The typical poll-ee couldn't find Iraq on a map of the Middle East much less a globe. They hear a few sound bites from the loudest mouth in between their favorite ball game and sitcom and that becomes their opinion.

I know very few that have even a passing interest in politics, that is reflected in the pathetic turnouts to the real polls each election. They may blame it on politicians but the fact is they just aren't interested, they are more concerned with what some fictional character on a fictional TV show is doing than what is happening in the real world. The feel powerless because they have made sure they are by not participating.

 

[theHawk]

Hi the president isn't up for re-election.



so....

 

[deaddude]

Because the actions of the current president can reflect badly on his party, giving the opposing party a better chance in the next election.

 

[Palestinian Jew]

I feel confident in the polls I provided. Its not just one poll, but mulitple polls done over a long period of time.

So far, no one has been able to point out flaws in my argument that an erosion of support, coupled with the fact that insurgencies take an average of 10 years to defeat, will result in the premature withdrawl of troops.

Yes, improvements are being made, but whether or not a 9 story rental real estate is built matters little if it is destroyed by the insurgency. If American troops are taken out of the equation, and Iraqi troops still aren't up to speed, the terrorists within their country will have a free-for-all.

Thats not even taking into account the ethnic divisions that exist.

 

[sitarro]

I feel confident in the polls I provided. Its not just one poll, but mulitple polls done over a long period of time.

So far, no one has been able to point out flaws in my argument that an erosion of support, coupled with the fact that insurgencies take an average of 10 years to defeat, will result in the premature withdrawl of troops.

Yes, improvements are being made, but whether or not a 9 story rental real estate is built matters little if it is destroyed by the insurgency. If American troops are taken out of the equation, and Iraqi troops still aren't up to speed, the terrorists within their country will have a free-for-all.

Thats not even taking into account the ethnic divisions that exist.

Where is the UN? Where are all of the concerned millions around the world? The U.S. is forced to stay and keep the peace as always because the asswipes around the world don't give a crap really, they just took the opportunity to protest the United States, why didn't they protest that asshole Hussein? Where were the protesters when he was stealing the oil for food money and keeping it for himself rather than feeding his people and providing them medicines? The anti-war protesters are a bunch of hypocritical fools that don't provide any action just bullshit to help the insurgents. France is finding out right now what inaction does just as Spain learned a few years ago.

The world has a huge roach problem and it seems that they count on us and the rest of the coalition to be the exterminators, that's not going to be good enough. It is going to take a global effort to take these shits out. . . or learn to bow on your knees and take what they want to give you..

 

[Palestinian Jew]

Where is the UN? Where are all of the concerned millions around the world? The U.S. is forced to stay and keep the peace as always because the asswipes around the world don't give a crap really, they just took the opportunity to protest the United States, why didn't they protest that asshole Hussein? Where were the protesters when he was stealing the oil for food money and keeping it for himself rather than feeding his people and providing them medicines? The anti-war protesters are a bunch of hypocritical fools that don't provide any action just bullshit to help the insurgents. France is finding out right now what inaction does just as Spain learned a few years ago.

The world has a huge roach problem and it seems that they count on us and the rest of the coalition to be the exterminators, that's not going to be good enough. It is going to take a global effort to take these shits out. . . or learn to bow on your knees and take what they want to give you..

I'm not exactly sure what this has to do with my topic. Please make it clearer.

Unless if your grouping me with the "asswipes". I didn't identify myself with one group or the other. My topic is non-partisan. My reason for withdrawing is based on what seems inevitable to me.

 

[Gunny]

I feel confident in the polls I provided. Its not just one poll, but mulitple polls done over a long period of time.

So far, no one has been able to point out flaws in my argument that an erosion of support, coupled with the fact that insurgencies take an average of 10 years to defeat, will result in the premature withdrawl of troops.

Yes, improvements are being made, but whether or not a 9 story rental real estate is built matters little if it is destroyed by the insurgency. If American troops are taken out of the equation, and Iraqi troops still aren't up to speed, the terrorists within their country will have a free-for-all.

Thats not even taking into account the ethnic divisions that exist.

Well of course you feel confident in the polls you provided. They support YOUR argument. What an amazing coincidence.

The fact is that WHO was polled, and what region they live in is not provided.

IF the troops are withdrawn prematurely because of whiney-ass liberalism then the left will have succeeded in doing what they have been attempting for the past three years --- to recreate the the Vietnam War and its results.

It would be strategically a beyond stupid decision. If you lefties think you are reviled now, wait until when and if you manage to pull that one off and the American public wakes up to see the results. It will be the end for you.

 

[deaddude]

Reviled by people on the other side of the argument, who would have thought? Dont get me wrong, I think it would be foolish to leave, and knowing PJ, he does to. It is just that people are starting to think that it was foolish to go in their in the first place.

 

[Palestinian Jew]

Well of course you feel confident in the polls you provided. They support YOUR argument. What an amazing coincidence.
QUOTE]

I meant the source. There is even a poll from Fox News. Each poll points to the same thing, we will leave before we should.

 

[Gunny]

Reviled by people on the other side of the argument, who would have thought? Dont get me wrong, I think it would be foolish to leave, and knowing PJ, he does to. It is just that people are starting to think that it was foolish to go in their in the first place.

Starting to think? It was a commonly held idea in the military back in 91 that taking out Saddam would result in the Shia, Sunni's, Kurds and Ba'ath's waging civil war for control and that leaving him in place was the wiser course of action. We also thought that taking Saddam out would create the power vaccum it has, drawing every fruitloop in the region like flies.

That is not saying there was not sufficient justification to take Saddam out. IMO, there was way more than enough. But the only real way to control the radical Islamic groups that currently run rampant is by doing it the same way Saddam did -- isolate and contain.

From a military standpoint, the occupation of Iraq has been amateurish at best because of politics. Too many in power here are more worried about what those on the political fronts both here and abroad than they are doing what's right.

They need to turn the military loose on search and destroy and let them drive these dogs to ground when and where found.

Be all that as it may, second-guessing with hindsight is about as useful as tits on a boar. We ARE there. The correct course of action is to finish the job and I will continue to support that and nothign short of that even if I don't agree with the tactics being used.