Why do Teacher's Unions prioritize job security over pay?

[Jomama]

I never understood it and would be happy to pay good teachers $100,000+. But we need to have some accountability in the system. Currently teaching may be the highest paying non-accountability job in the country. I'd love to see it become an attractive career path instead.

The union bosses have nothing to lose, any changes can be on future teachers, not the old tenured ones who have already chosen job security over pay. Is there a moral argument they have that I'm missing?

FWIW, my wife taught for years and I got somewhat of an inside view.

 

[regent]

At one time teachers, as many government employees, were fired when a new board of education or local government was elected. It was part of the spoils system. Some districts replaced all their teachers with new teachers after winning an election. Eventually civil service laws and tenure laws were implemented to end the spoils system. It was also implemented to keep an independent teaching staff from being told what to teach by local politicians. Education was a state concern.
Teachers with tenure are fired all the time, many administrators, however, do not want to go through the process.

 

[DGS49]

What is the evidence that teachers' unions are more concerned about job security than they are about compensation? Do you have examples of unions making concessions on compensation in exchange for better job security?

That would be truly remarkable. In my neck of the woods, teachers unions never make concessions on anything. They occasionally make PRETEND concessions. For example, in response to a demand that it be made easier to fire an ineffective teacher, they agree to begin thinking about teacher evaluations sometime in the distant future. In response to a demand that they pay "something" toward the exploding cost of health benefits, they pay $10/month - and complain as though they had sacrificed their firstborn sons.

Why should they ever make a concession? Is their employer going to go bankrupt? Will it lose business to a competitor? Will it outsource teaching to a foreign supplier?

 

[TheOldSchool]

People in this country are sue happy. That's why teachers unions exist.

 

[bodecea]

I never understood it and would be happy to pay good teachers $100,000+. But we need to have some accountability in the system. Currently teaching may be the highest paying non-accountability job in the country. I'd love to see it become an attractive career path instead.

The union bosses have nothing to lose, any changes can be on future teachers, not the old tenured ones who have already chosen job security over pay. Is there a moral argument they have that I'm missing?

FWIW, my wife taught for years and I got somewhat of an inside view.

They do?

 

[bodecea]

There are some states with no teachers' unions. How are they making out in educational rankings?

 

[regent]

Most people join organizations rather than try to implement political policies on their own. For example the Chamber of Commerce for business, the veterans groups for veterans, even the disabled veterans have an organization. Labor unions represent labor, and teacher unions for teachers. I'm sure there are organizations for boards of education, for school administrators and so on. We even have political parties to represent our own political beliefs. This is America.

 

[Jomama]

DGS49 - I agree with you, they negotiate against no opposition. Board of education members have told me about the false dance negotiations but never anything like the private sector.

Old School - "People in this country are sue happy. That's why teachers unions exist". WHAT??? Who is suing who and how does the union help?

Bodecea - correlation is not causation. Those 5 states trail in damn near everything.

 

[initforme]

Teachers have surrendered making a decent wage in the private sector to make a pittance working with the screwed up ilk of America. Can you imagine working in an inner city school in a big city for what they get paid? Answer? Not aq chance when one can make ALOT alot more in the private sector. On top of that even good teachers a.are bastardized by our somewhat dim witted nation.

 

[regent]

After teaching five years half the new teachers have quit.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Really? Pay or job security? If you don't have a job, what difference does it make how much you'd have earned?

 

[squeeze berry]

People in this country are sue happy. That's why teachers unions exist.

ding, ding, ding

winner

 

[squeeze berry]

DGS49 - I agree with you, they negotiate against no opposition. Board of education members have told me about the false dance negotiations but never anything like the private sector.

Old School - "People in this country are sue happy. That's why teachers unions exist". WHAT??? Who is suing who and how does the union help?

Bodecea - correlation is not causation. Those 5 states trail in damn near everything.

or false accusations

Sexting Hysteria Falsely Brands Educator as Child Pornographer WIRED

in a nutshell

administrator confiscates cell phone from male student that has a provocative pic on it
later incident, that male student pulls down girl's pants and is suspended
boy's parents get even with administrator for the suspension claiming the administrator had child porn
county prosecutor agrees with parents and pursues felony charges
administrator fights charges and is vindicated, but his life is ruined
boy, parents, county prosecutor face no consequences


former Redskins stepson accuses teaching aid of hitting him
parents of child goes ape shit
teaching aid fired
child later admits to lying
teaching aid's life ruined

PS I have other stories like this. That is why I joined the union

 

[DGS49]

(1) There is nothing wrong with joining a union, and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with unions. Unions in Europe (for the most part) understand that everyone works for the same company and if the company is profitable everyone benefits. Here, unions were formed before the government-mandated protections were very expansive or effective, so they had to be aggressive - sometime stupidly so. But this same attitude should not prevail in teachers' unions and yet it does. They should not be fighting teacher performance evaluations (which are a joke even where they do exist), or removal of incompetent teachers, yet they do.

(2) In my neck of the woods, teachers are VERY well compensated when you consider total hours worked annually and their qualifications. People want to compare teachers' wages with accountants and engineers and MBA's. Baloney. Teaching degrees have minimal academic rigor, and should be compared with degrees in history, ethnic studies, and humanities. and don't tell me about "Masters Degrees." Their masters degrees are even less rigorous than the undergrad degrees. Compared to people with comparable professional education, teachers are making out like bandits.

(3) There is essentially NO teacher turnover around here. New openings are almost entirely the result of retirements or pregnancy. People leaving the teaching profession for something more lucrative? It ain't happening.

 

[squeeze berry]

(1) There is nothing wrong with joining a union, and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with unions. Unions in Europe (for the most part) understand that everyone works for the same company and if the company is profitable everyone benefits. Here, unions were formed before the government-mandated protections were very expansive or effective, so they had to be aggressive - sometime stupidly so. But this same attitude should not prevail in teachers' unions and yet it does. They should not be fighting teacher performance evaluations (which are a joke even where they do exist), or removal of incompetent teachers, yet they do.

(2) In my neck of the woods, teachers are VERY well compensated when you consider total hours worked annually and their qualifications. People want to compare teachers' wages with accountants and engineers and MBA's. Baloney. Teaching degrees have minimal academic rigor, and should be compared with degrees in history, ethnic studies, and humanities. and don't tell me about "Masters Degrees." Their masters degrees are even less rigorous than the undergrad degrees. Compared to people with comparable professional education, teachers are making out like bandits.

(3) There is essentially NO teacher turnover around here. New openings are almost entirely the result of retirements or pregnancy. People leaving the teaching profession for something more lucrative? It ain't happening.

where are you from, if you don't mind my asking?

 

[HenryBHough]

At one time teachers, as many government employees, were fired when a new board of education or local government was elected. It was part of the spoils system. Some districts replaced all their teachers with new teachers after winning an election. Eventually civil service laws and tenure laws were implemented to end the spoils system. It was also implemented to keep an independent teaching staff from being told what to teach by local politicians. Education was a state concern.
Teachers with tenure are fired all the time, many administrators, however, do not want to go through the process.

The above is all too true. Especially in smaller communities where population was small, teachers few. I watched it happen up though most of the 1950s. Interestingly, though, the really good teachers feared control of education being centralized (anything above local level). The concern was that am appointed, politicized state board of education would turn schools into indoctrination centers. They recognized that the same sometimes did that at the local level but the manipulators could more easily be removed from office than could be unelected bureaucrats.

 

[Unkotare]

Teaching degrees have minimal academic rigo....

How do you know that?

 

[mgh80]

People in this country are sue happy. That's why teachers unions exist.

ding, ding, ding

winner

I'm a teacher and joined the union for one reason: they'll provide me with a lawyer in case I get sued. People are VERY sue happy in this country and will jump on anybody if they think they can make a buck-even if it's ridiculous. A few years ago a teacher broke up a fight (one girl was on top of another and was literally slamming this girl's head down on the ground). The teacher grabbed the aggressor (or at least the girl winning the fight) by the shoulders and yanked her off. That girl's parents sued because when the teacher broke up the fight she left a mark on the girl's shoulder...and WON.

It's sad but it's cases like this which is why I wont break up a fight in school. If a video of my fight in my classroom (haven't had one in years-knock on wood), were to go viral everybody would assume I was doing the wrong thing....well sorry but I can't risk the security of my family in a situation like that. It's sad and pathetic that our country has come to that point...but it has.