Why Did The South Secede?

[PoliticalChic]

PC's blathering reveals she has little clue to anything outside of her extremely limited view of reality.

Hey....be fair!

It's my job to make you look like a fool......stop doing my job!!

This is the opening line of the Mississippi secession declaration:

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.


"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world."

...and to the specifics:

"That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

The hostility to this institution commenced before the adoption of the Constitution, and was manifested in the well-known Ordinance of 1787, in regard to the Northwestern Territory.

The feeling increased, until, in 1819-20, it deprived the South of more than half the vast territory acquired from France.

The same hostility dismembered Texas and seized upon all the territory acquired from Mexico.

It has grown until it denies the right of property in slaves, and refuses protection to that right on the high seas, in the Territories, and wherever the government of the United States had jurisdiction.

It refuses the admission of new slave States into the Union, and seeks to extinguish it by confining it within its present limits, denying the power of expansion.

It tramples the original equality of the South under foot.

It has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State in the Union, and has utterly broken the compact which our fathers pledged their faith to maintain.

It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.

It has enlisted its press, its pulpit and its schools against us, until the whole popular mind of the North is excited and inflamed with prejudice.

It has made combinations and formed associations to carry out its schemes of emancipation in the States and wherever else slavery exists.

It seeks not to elevate or to support the slave, but to destroy his present condition without providing a better.

It has invaded a State, and invested with the honors of martyrdom the wretch whose purpose was to apply flames to our dwellings, and the weapons of destruction to our lives.

It has broken every compact into which it has entered for our security.

It has given indubitable evidence of its design to ruin our agriculture, to prostrate our industrial pursuits and to destroy our social system.

It knows no relenting or hesitation in its purposes; it stops not in its march of aggression, and leaves us no room to hope for cessation or for pause.

It has recently obtained control of the Government, by the prosecution of its unhallowed schemes, and destroyed the last expectation of living together in friendship and brotherhood.


Utter subjugation awaits us in the Union, if we should consent longer to remain in it."

Now go ahead and make your argument that secession was not about the fear of the abolishment of the institution of slavery.

link Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Mississippi Secession

This is where the thread ended.

Any argument to which you agree must be a loser.

I documented the South claiming that the entire world would knuckle under to the power of "King Cotton."

I provide the speech by the Senator from South Carolina.

I gave Abraham Lincoln's own words, post #62, stating that slavery was safe in those states that wanted it.

I have proven that is was Southern misjudgment about their own importance that caused secession, not fears of slavery being outlawed.


So....neither facts nor logic support your position.




But here is what does: your irritation over how frequently I eat your lunch in these disagreements.
And the reason for that is that my posts are based on something you and the other mental midgets cannot understand: knowledge.

scientia sit potentia

 

[NoNukes]

As Abraham Lincoln and I have shown, the proximate reason for secession was not slavery.
Seems to have silenced the peanut gallery.



5. Well, if the issue wasn't about slavery, what was it about???

This, from the Op-
" You see, the South believed that they ruled the world.
Really. Ruled!
Whether or not they imagined that they could defeat the North militarily,they fervently believed that they could oblige....compel... the greatest military power in the world to back them."



Here are some facts that you make it clear:


a. 75% of the world's cotton, and up to 84% of Britain's, came from the South's cotton fields. The Cotton Economy in the South FREE The Cotton Economy in the South information Encyclopedia.com Find The Cotton Economy in the South research

b. In Britain's industrial heartland, where all but 500 of the country's 2,650 cotton factories, employing 440 000 people, were located, and almost all of the cotton came from the Southern United States. A history of the Lancashire cotton mills

c. "In 1861 the London Times estimated that one fifth of the British population was dependent, directly or indirectly, on the success of the cotton districts." "Double Death: The True Story of Pryce Lewis, the Civil War's Most Daring Spy,"byGavin Mortimer, p.72




6. "The Trent Affairwas an international diplomatic incident that occurred during the American Civil War. On November 8, 1861, the USS San Jacinto, commanded by Union Captain Charles Wilkes, intercepted the British mail packet RMSTrent and removed, as contraband of war, two Confederate diplomats, James Mason and John Slidell. The envoys were bound for Great Britain and France to press the Confederacy's case for diplomatic recognition and financial support for the Confederacy in the name of King Cotton."
Trent Affair - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

What and where is your conclusion?

Are you saying that the Union went to war with the Confederacy because the Union was afraid of the success of the South's cotton exports?

I think the most significant reason the US Civil War occurred was slavery, most people think its slavery, and most experts do as well because that is the cause the evidence most strongly supports.

But neo-Confederates, conservative revisionists, and those willing to make fools of themselves just to make a name for themselves can try to spin the causes of the Civil War into something anti-progressive. We'll all enjoy the gymnastics required for the attempt.

It never ceases to amaze, how few posters can read.

The title to which you were ostensibly addressing your post was
"Why Did The South Secede?"

Is your point that there was only ONE reason?

 

[PoliticalChic]

I think a running tally of PolitialChic's insanity is in order.

Yesterday, or whenever, it was Roosevelt prolonged WWII by 2 years. Today it's Slavery had nothing to do with the secession of the Confederate states.

Stay tuned for even more delightful dementia...

It's part and parcel of "The Lost Cause". After the war was over, the South had to come up with a new theme as to what the war was about.....since fighting FOR slavery was not really a pleasant thing to be remembered for.

The weird thing about this lunacy of PC is that her premise isn't even an argument against slavery as the cause of the war,

and she doesn't even realize it. Her cockeyed argument is that the South felt confident that they could secede, and thus preserve the institution of slavery,

because they expected help from Great Britain.

The the war of northern aggression wasn't fought to preserve... nor abolish ....slavery.

Lincoln couldn't have cared less about the negroes either way. He said so himself.

Disagree.

Lincoln hated slavery.

But he felt that maintaining the Union was, at that moment, the most important thing he could do.

You can see that in the Emancipation Proclamation, where he threatened to free slaves in the states that seceded.


Lincoln's Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861:

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.
Those who nominated and elected me did so with full knowledge that I had made this and many similar declarations and had never recanted them; and more than this, they placed in the platform for my acceptance, and as a law to themselves and to me, the clear and emphatic resolution which I now read:

'Resolved', That the maintenance inviolate of the rights of the States, and especially the right of each State to order and control its own domestic institutions according to its own judgment exclusively, is essential to that balance of power on which the perfection and endurance of our political fabric depend; and we denounce the lawless invasion by armed force of the soil of any State or Territory, no matter what pretext, as among the gravest of crimes. I now reiterate these sentiments,..."
Abraham Lincoln Inaugural Address

 

[PoliticalChic]

As Abraham Lincoln and I have shown, the proximate reason for secession was not slavery.
Seems to have silenced the peanut gallery.



5. Well, if the issue wasn't about slavery, what was it about???

This, from the Op-
" You see, the South believed that they ruled the world.
Really. Ruled!
Whether or not they imagined that they could defeat the North militarily,they fervently believed that they could oblige....compel... the greatest military power in the world to back them."



Here are some facts that you make it clear:


a. 75% of the world's cotton, and up to 84% of Britain's, came from the South's cotton fields. The Cotton Economy in the South FREE The Cotton Economy in the South information Encyclopedia.com Find The Cotton Economy in the South research

b. In Britain's industrial heartland, where all but 500 of the country's 2,650 cotton factories, employing 440 000 people, were located, and almost all of the cotton came from the Southern United States. A history of the Lancashire cotton mills

c. "In 1861 the London Times estimated that one fifth of the British population was dependent, directly or indirectly, on the success of the cotton districts." "Double Death: The True Story of Pryce Lewis, the Civil War's Most Daring Spy,"byGavin Mortimer, p.72




6. "The Trent Affairwas an international diplomatic incident that occurred during the American Civil War. On November 8, 1861, the USS San Jacinto, commanded by Union Captain Charles Wilkes, intercepted the British mail packet RMSTrent and removed, as contraband of war, two Confederate diplomats, James Mason and John Slidell. The envoys were bound for Great Britain and France to press the Confederacy's case for diplomatic recognition and financial support for the Confederacy in the name of King Cotton."
Trent Affair - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

What and where is your conclusion?

Are you saying that the Union went to war with the Confederacy because the Union was afraid of the success of the South's cotton exports?

I think the most significant reason the US Civil War occurred was slavery, most people think its slavery, and most experts do as well because that is the cause the evidence most strongly supports.

But neo-Confederates, conservative revisionists, and those willing to make fools of themselves just to make a name for themselves can try to spin the causes of the Civil War into something anti-progressive. We'll all enjoy the gymnastics required for the attempt.

It never ceases to amaze, how few posters can read.

The title to which you were ostensibly addressing your post was
"Why Did The South Secede?"

Is your point that there was only ONE reason?

My point, as always, is to reveal truth that government schools fail to.

Surprising that you haven't recognized that.

 

[Rotagilla]

PC's blathering reveals she has little clue to anything outside of her extremely limited view of reality.

Hey....be fair!

It's my job to make you look like a fool......stop doing my job!!

This is the opening line of the Mississippi secession declaration:

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.


"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world."

...and to the specifics:

"That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

The hostility to this institution commenced before the adoption of the Constitution, and was manifested in the well-known Ordinance of 1787, in regard to the Northwestern Territory.

The feeling increased, until, in 1819-20, it deprived the South of more than half the vast territory acquired from France.

The same hostility dismembered Texas and seized upon all the territory acquired from Mexico.

It has grown until it denies the right of property in slaves, and refuses protection to that right on the high seas, in the Territories, and wherever the government of the United States had jurisdiction.

It refuses the admission of new slave States into the Union, and seeks to extinguish it by confining it within its present limits, denying the power of expansion.

It tramples the original equality of the South under foot.

It has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State in the Union, and has utterly broken the compact which our fathers pledged their faith to maintain.

It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.

It has enlisted its press, its pulpit and its schools against us, until the whole popular mind of the North is excited and inflamed with prejudice.

It has made combinations and formed associations to carry out its schemes of emancipation in the States and wherever else slavery exists.

It seeks not to elevate or to support the slave, but to destroy his present condition without providing a better.

It has invaded a State, and invested with the honors of martyrdom the wretch whose purpose was to apply flames to our dwellings, and the weapons of destruction to our lives.

It has broken every compact into which it has entered for our security.

It has given indubitable evidence of its design to ruin our agriculture, to prostrate our industrial pursuits and to destroy our social system.

It knows no relenting or hesitation in its purposes; it stops not in its march of aggression, and leaves us no room to hope for cessation or for pause.

It has recently obtained control of the Government, by the prosecution of its unhallowed schemes, and destroyed the last expectation of living together in friendship and brotherhood.


Utter subjugation awaits us in the Union, if we should consent longer to remain in it."

Now go ahead and make your argument that secession was not about the fear of the abolishment of the institution of slavery.

link Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Mississippi Secession

This is where the thread ended.

Any argument to which you agree must be a loser.

I documented the South claiming that the entire world would knuckle under to the power of "King Cotton."

I provide the speech by the Senator from South Carolina.

I gave Abraham Lincoln's own words, post #62, stating that slavery was safe in those states that wanted it.

I have proven that is was Southern misjudgment about their own importance that caused secession, not fears of slavery being outlawed.


So....neither facts nor logic support your position.




But here is what does: your irritation over how frequently I eat your lunch in these disagreements.
And the reason for that is that my posts are based on something you and the other mental midgets cannot understand: knowledge.

scientia sit potentia

The south attempted to peacefully withdraw from the union.... like the Patriots attempted in 1776 and for the same reasons.
The north invaded what the people who lived there determined was a new, sovereign nation.....like the British did in 1776.

The north decided it was better to crush freedom by force than to allow people the right of self determination.

 

[Rotagilla]

I think a running tally of PolitialChic's insanity is in order.

Yesterday, or whenever, it was Roosevelt prolonged WWII by 2 years. Today it's Slavery had nothing to do with the secession of the Confederate states.

Stay tuned for even more delightful dementia...

It's part and parcel of "The Lost Cause". After the war was over, the South had to come up with a new theme as to what the war was about.....since fighting FOR slavery was not really a pleasant thing to be remembered for.

The weird thing about this lunacy of PC is that her premise isn't even an argument against slavery as the cause of the war,

and she doesn't even realize it. Her cockeyed argument is that the South felt confident that they could secede, and thus preserve the institution of slavery,

because they expected help from Great Britain.

The the war of northern aggression wasn't fought to preserve... nor abolish ....slavery.

Lincoln couldn't have cared less about the negroes either way. He said so himself.

Disagree.

Lincoln hated slavery.

But he felt that maintaining the Union was, at that moment, the most important thing he could do.

You can see that in the Emancipation Proclamation, where he threatened to free slaves in the states that seceded.


Lincoln's Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861:

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.
Those who nominated and elected me did so with full knowledge that I had made this and many similar declarations and had never recanted them; and more than this, they placed in the platform for my acceptance, and as a law to themselves and to me, the clear and emphatic resolution which I now read:

'Resolved', That the maintenance inviolate of the rights of the States, and especially the right of each State to order and control its own domestic institutions according to its own judgment exclusively, is essential to that balance of power on which the perfection and endurance of our political fabric depend; and we denounce the lawless invasion by armed force of the soil of any State or Territory, no matter what pretext, as among the gravest of crimes. I now reiterate these sentiments,..."
Abraham Lincoln Inaugural Address

If the war was about abolishing slavery, why did he wait so long to "emancipate" them?...and why only in "certain" areas?
He did it to purposely destabilize the south because he knew there would be roving bands of criminal negroes wreaking havoc in the south since many of the white men were off elsewhere fighting.

He could make all the "proclamations" he wanted but slavery wasn't illegal and he can't pick and choose which laws he would support .

Lincoln also believed in the declaration of independence where it says;

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Declaration of Independence
1776
____________________________________________________________________________

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can may revolutionize and make their own of so many of the territory as they inhabit."


Abraham Lincoln
Jan 12, 1848

 

[rightwinger]

Why Did The South Secede?

Because they were as delusional as right wingernuts are today.

Thats about it

They had the same hatred of anyone who was not white, male and Christian

 

[PoliticalChic]

PC's blathering reveals she has little clue to anything outside of her extremely limited view of reality.

Hey....be fair!

It's my job to make you look like a fool......stop doing my job!!

This is the opening line of the Mississippi secession declaration:

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.


"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world."

...and to the specifics:

"That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

The hostility to this institution commenced before the adoption of the Constitution, and was manifested in the well-known Ordinance of 1787, in regard to the Northwestern Territory.

The feeling increased, until, in 1819-20, it deprived the South of more than half the vast territory acquired from France.

The same hostility dismembered Texas and seized upon all the territory acquired from Mexico.

It has grown until it denies the right of property in slaves, and refuses protection to that right on the high seas, in the Territories, and wherever the government of the United States had jurisdiction.

It refuses the admission of new slave States into the Union, and seeks to extinguish it by confining it within its present limits, denying the power of expansion.

It tramples the original equality of the South under foot.

It has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State in the Union, and has utterly broken the compact which our fathers pledged their faith to maintain.

It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.

It has enlisted its press, its pulpit and its schools against us, until the whole popular mind of the North is excited and inflamed with prejudice.

It has made combinations and formed associations to carry out its schemes of emancipation in the States and wherever else slavery exists.

It seeks not to elevate or to support the slave, but to destroy his present condition without providing a better.

It has invaded a State, and invested with the honors of martyrdom the wretch whose purpose was to apply flames to our dwellings, and the weapons of destruction to our lives.

It has broken every compact into which it has entered for our security.

It has given indubitable evidence of its design to ruin our agriculture, to prostrate our industrial pursuits and to destroy our social system.

It knows no relenting or hesitation in its purposes; it stops not in its march of aggression, and leaves us no room to hope for cessation or for pause.

It has recently obtained control of the Government, by the prosecution of its unhallowed schemes, and destroyed the last expectation of living together in friendship and brotherhood.


Utter subjugation awaits us in the Union, if we should consent longer to remain in it."

Now go ahead and make your argument that secession was not about the fear of the abolishment of the institution of slavery.

link Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Mississippi Secession

This is where the thread ended.

Any argument to which you agree must be a loser.

I documented the South claiming that the entire world would knuckle under to the power of "King Cotton."

I provide the speech by the Senator from South Carolina.

I gave Abraham Lincoln's own words, post #62, stating that slavery was safe in those states that wanted it.

I have proven that is was Southern misjudgment about their own importance that caused secession, not fears of slavery being outlawed.


So....neither facts nor logic support your position.




But here is what does: your irritation over how frequently I eat your lunch in these disagreements.
And the reason for that is that my posts are based on something you and the other mental midgets cannot understand: knowledge.

scientia sit potentia

The south attempted to peacefully withdraw from the union.... like the Patriots attempted in 1776 and for the same reasons.
The north invaded what the people who lived there determined was a new, sovereign nation.....like the British did in 1776.

The north decided it was better to crush freedom by force than to allow people the right of self determination.

You may see it that way....there is an argument to be made there.
But it wasn't a "peaceful withdrawl"....it was born of an act of war.

1. Major Robert Anderson and 85 men were stranded in Fort Sumter.

2. Surrounding him were hundreds of militiamen and coastal guns.

3. Lincoln refused to give the fort up, but the fort was running out of food: if he sent a supply convoy into Charleston Bay, he would be blamed for starting the war.....but how could he give in, and give up the fort?

4. William Seward tried to undermine Lincoln....telling Lincoln to give up the fort for 'goodwill.'

5. On April 5, Lincoln dispatched a fleet of supply ships with the proviso that was relayed to Jefferson Davis: the vessels would be unarmed, with the only cargo "food for hungry men."

6. Firing on the defenseless ships would have been an act of war by the Confederacy.

7. On Tuesday, April 9, Davis held a cabinet meeting, deciding on war. Three days later, and hours before the ships would arrive....the Southern forces attacked the fort.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I think a running tally of PolitialChic's insanity is in order.

Yesterday, or whenever, it was Roosevelt prolonged WWII by 2 years. Today it's Slavery had nothing to do with the secession of the Confederate states.

Stay tuned for even more delightful dementia...

It's part and parcel of "The Lost Cause". After the war was over, the South had to come up with a new theme as to what the war was about.....since fighting FOR slavery was not really a pleasant thing to be remembered for.

The weird thing about this lunacy of PC is that her premise isn't even an argument against slavery as the cause of the war,

and she doesn't even realize it. Her cockeyed argument is that the South felt confident that they could secede, and thus preserve the institution of slavery,

because they expected help from Great Britain.

The the war of northern aggression wasn't fought to preserve... nor abolish ....slavery.

Lincoln couldn't have cared less about the negroes either way. He said so himself.

Disagree.

Lincoln hated slavery.

But he felt that maintaining the Union was, at that moment, the most important thing he could do.

You can see that in the Emancipation Proclamation, where he threatened to free slaves in the states that seceded.


Lincoln's Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861:

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.
Those who nominated and elected me did so with full knowledge that I had made this and many similar declarations and had never recanted them; and more than this, they placed in the platform for my acceptance, and as a law to themselves and to me, the clear and emphatic resolution which I now read:

'Resolved', That the maintenance inviolate of the rights of the States, and especially the right of each State to order and control its own domestic institutions according to its own judgment exclusively, is essential to that balance of power on which the perfection and endurance of our political fabric depend; and we denounce the lawless invasion by armed force of the soil of any State or Territory, no matter what pretext, as among the gravest of crimes. I now reiterate these sentiments,..."
Abraham Lincoln Inaugural Address

If the war was about abolishing slavery, why did he wait so long to "emancipate" them?...and why only in "certain" areas?
He did it to purposely destabilize the south because he knew there would be roving bands of criminal negroes wreaking havoc in the south since many of the white men were off elsewhere fighting.

He could make all the "proclamations" he wanted but slavery wasn't illegal and he can't pick and choose which laws he would support .

Lincoln also believed in the declaration of independence where it says;

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Declaration of Independence
1776
____________________________________________________________________________

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can may revolutionize and make their own of so many of the territory as they inhabit."


Abraham Lincoln
Jan 12, 1848

"If the war was about abolishing slavery, why did he wait so long to "emancipate" them?...and why only in "certain" areas?"

I said no such thing.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Why Did The South Secede?

Because they were as delusional as right wingernuts are today.

Thats about it

They had the same hatred of anyone who was not white, male and Christian

Slanderous lies.

To be expected from Leftists/

 

[NoNukes]

[


So...resolved: slavery was not the precipitation for secession.
......

That's been proven false. Your point, such as it was, about Great Britain may or may not have merit, but it is totally unconnected to the REASON for secession.

She is assuming that there was only ONE reasons for secession. Slavery was actually be encompassed in her reason.

 

[PoliticalChic]

[


So...resolved: slavery was not the precipitation for secession.
......

That's been proven false. Your point, such as it was, about Great Britain may or may not have merit, but it is totally unconnected to the REASON for secession.

She is assuming that there was only ONE reasons for secession. Slavery was actually be encompassed in her reason.

Interesting how you choose to tell what I believe.
You're not smart enough to do that.

 

[rightwinger]

PC's blathering reveals she has little clue to anything outside of her extremely limited view of reality.

Hey....be fair!

It's my job to make you look like a fool......stop doing my job!!

This is the opening line of the Mississippi secession declaration:

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.


"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world."

...and to the specifics:

"That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

The hostility to this institution commenced before the adoption of the Constitution, and was manifested in the well-known Ordinance of 1787, in regard to the Northwestern Territory.

The feeling increased, until, in 1819-20, it deprived the South of more than half the vast territory acquired from France.

The same hostility dismembered Texas and seized upon all the territory acquired from Mexico.

It has grown until it denies the right of property in slaves, and refuses protection to that right on the high seas, in the Territories, and wherever the government of the United States had jurisdiction.

It refuses the admission of new slave States into the Union, and seeks to extinguish it by confining it within its present limits, denying the power of expansion.

It tramples the original equality of the South under foot.

It has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State in the Union, and has utterly broken the compact which our fathers pledged their faith to maintain.

It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.

It has enlisted its press, its pulpit and its schools against us, until the whole popular mind of the North is excited and inflamed with prejudice.

It has made combinations and formed associations to carry out its schemes of emancipation in the States and wherever else slavery exists.

It seeks not to elevate or to support the slave, but to destroy his present condition without providing a better.

It has invaded a State, and invested with the honors of martyrdom the wretch whose purpose was to apply flames to our dwellings, and the weapons of destruction to our lives.

It has broken every compact into which it has entered for our security.

It has given indubitable evidence of its design to ruin our agriculture, to prostrate our industrial pursuits and to destroy our social system.

It knows no relenting or hesitation in its purposes; it stops not in its march of aggression, and leaves us no room to hope for cessation or for pause.

It has recently obtained control of the Government, by the prosecution of its unhallowed schemes, and destroyed the last expectation of living together in friendship and brotherhood.


Utter subjugation awaits us in the Union, if we should consent longer to remain in it."

Now go ahead and make your argument that secession was not about the fear of the abolishment of the institution of slavery.

link Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Mississippi Secession

This is where the thread ended.

Any argument to which you agree must be a loser.

I documented the South claiming that the entire world would knuckle under to the power of "King Cotton."

I provide the speech by the Senator from South Carolina.

I gave Abraham Lincoln's own words, post #62, stating that slavery was safe in those states that wanted it.

I have proven that is was Southern misjudgment about their own importance that caused secession, not fears of slavery being outlawed.


So....neither facts nor logic support your position.




But here is what does: your irritation over how frequently I eat your lunch in these disagreements.
And the reason for that is that my posts are based on something you and the other mental midgets cannot understand: knowledge.

scientia sit potentia

The south attempted to peacefully withdraw from the union.... like the Patriots attempted in 1776 and for the same reasons.
The north invaded what the people who lived there determined was a new, sovereign nation.....like the British did in 1776.

The north decided it was better to crush freedom by force than to allow people the right of self determination.

The south formed a nation of traitors dedicated to the proposition that owning other human beings was an essential right

 

[bodecea]

I think a running tally of PolitialChic's insanity is in order.

Yesterday, or whenever, it was Roosevelt prolonged WWII by 2 years. Today it's Slavery had nothing to do with the secession of the Confederate states.

Stay tuned for even more delightful dementia...

It's part and parcel of "The Lost Cause". After the war was over, the South had to come up with a new theme as to what the war was about.....since fighting FOR slavery was not really a pleasant thing to be remembered for.

The weird thing about this lunacy of PC is that her premise isn't even an argument against slavery as the cause of the war,

and she doesn't even realize it. Her cockeyed argument is that the South felt confident that they could secede, and thus preserve the institution of slavery,

because they expected help from Great Britain.

The the war of northern aggression wasn't fought to preserve... nor abolish ....slavery.

Lincoln couldn't have cared less about the negroes either way. He said so himself.

Disagree.

Lincoln hated slavery.

But he felt that maintaining the Union was, at that moment, the most important thing he could do.

You can see that in the Emancipation Proclamation, where he threatened to free slaves in the states that seceded.


Lincoln's Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861:

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.
Those who nominated and elected me did so with full knowledge that I had made this and many similar declarations and had never recanted them; and more than this, they placed in the platform for my acceptance, and as a law to themselves and to me, the clear and emphatic resolution which I now read:

'Resolved', That the maintenance inviolate of the rights of the States, and especially the right of each State to order and control its own domestic institutions according to its own judgment exclusively, is essential to that balance of power on which the perfection and endurance of our political fabric depend; and we denounce the lawless invasion by armed force of the soil of any State or Territory, no matter what pretext, as among the gravest of crimes. I now reiterate these sentiments,..."
Abraham Lincoln Inaugural Address

If the war was about abolishing slavery, why did he wait so long to "emancipate" them?...and why only in "certain" areas?
He did it to purposely destabilize the south because he knew there would be roving bands of criminal negroes wreaking havoc in the south since many of the white men were off elsewhere fighting.

He could make all the "proclamations" he wanted but slavery wasn't illegal and he can't pick and choose which laws he would support .

Lincoln also believed in the declaration of independence where it says;

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Declaration of Independence
1776
____________________________________________________________________________

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can may revolutionize and make their own of so many of the territory as they inhabit."


Abraham Lincoln
Jan 12, 1848

"If the war was about abolishing slavery, why did he wait so long to "emancipate" them?...and why only in "certain" areas?"

I said no such thing.

Because it was political. Lincoln was ORIGINALLY only for stopping the expansion of slavery to new states....Remember that the Republican party was made up mostly of "Free Soilers". Lincoln may not have had the intent to free slaves, but you would never have convinced the Southern states of that. They saw the demographic writing on the wall...somewhat like the GOP base sees the writing on the wall today. And they got just as frantic about it.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I think a running tally of PolitialChic's insanity is in order.

Yesterday, or whenever, it was Roosevelt prolonged WWII by 2 years. Today it's Slavery had nothing to do with the secession of the Confederate states.

Stay tuned for even more delightful dementia...

It's part and parcel of "The Lost Cause". After the war was over, the South had to come up with a new theme as to what the war was about.....since fighting FOR slavery was not really a pleasant thing to be remembered for.

The weird thing about this lunacy of PC is that her premise isn't even an argument against slavery as the cause of the war,

and she doesn't even realize it. Her cockeyed argument is that the South felt confident that they could secede, and thus preserve the institution of slavery,

because they expected help from Great Britain.

The the war of northern aggression wasn't fought to preserve... nor abolish ....slavery.

Lincoln couldn't have cared less about the negroes either way. He said so himself.

Disagree.

Lincoln hated slavery.

But he felt that maintaining the Union was, at that moment, the most important thing he could do.

You can see that in the Emancipation Proclamation, where he threatened to free slaves in the states that seceded.


Lincoln's Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861:

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.
Those who nominated and elected me did so with full knowledge that I had made this and many similar declarations and had never recanted them; and more than this, they placed in the platform for my acceptance, and as a law to themselves and to me, the clear and emphatic resolution which I now read:

'Resolved', That the maintenance inviolate of the rights of the States, and especially the right of each State to order and control its own domestic institutions according to its own judgment exclusively, is essential to that balance of power on which the perfection and endurance of our political fabric depend; and we denounce the lawless invasion by armed force of the soil of any State or Territory, no matter what pretext, as among the gravest of crimes. I now reiterate these sentiments,..."
Abraham Lincoln Inaugural Address

If the war was about abolishing slavery, why did he wait so long to "emancipate" them?...and why only in "certain" areas?
He did it to purposely destabilize the south because he knew there would be roving bands of criminal negroes wreaking havoc in the south since many of the white men were off elsewhere fighting.

He could make all the "proclamations" he wanted but slavery wasn't illegal and he can't pick and choose which laws he would support .

Lincoln also believed in the declaration of independence where it says;

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Declaration of Independence
1776
____________________________________________________________________________

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can may revolutionize and make their own of so many of the territory as they inhabit."


Abraham Lincoln
Jan 12, 1848

"If the war was about abolishing slavery, why did he wait so long to "emancipate" them?...and why only in "certain" areas?"

I said no such thing.

Because it was political. Lincoln was ORIGINALLY only for stopping the expansion of slavery to new states....Remember that the Republican party was made up mostly of "Free Soilers". Lincoln may not have had the intent to free slaves, but you would never have convinced the Southern states of that. They saw the demographic writing on the wall...somewhat like the GOP base sees the writing on the wall today. And they got just as frantic about it.

Essentially correct, but let me remind you, first the thread to which you have subscribed shows that, had it not been for mistaken beliefs about their importance in the world, the Southern elite probably would not have got to war against the North: they believed that the English fleet would make up for their lack of a navy.

Second, the basis of the Rightwing differences are principled: we believe in American sovereignty, and that people should be treated as individuals, not groups.


The subtext of the thread is that Obama is the South redux: "...mistaken beliefs ..."

 

[NoNukes]

[


So...resolved: slavery was not the precipitation for secession.
......

That's been proven false. Your point, such as it was, about Great Britain may or may not have merit, but it is totally unconnected to the REASON for secession.

She is assuming that there was only ONE reasons for secession. Slavery was actually be encompassed in her reason.

Interesting how you choose to tell what I believe.
You're not smart enough to do that.

Telling what you believe is not a sign of intelligence. I agree with that.

 

[edthecynic]

I see you can't even discuss history without infusing your contempt for the current president, which is most disingenuous to your premise...

"...you can't even discuss history without....blah blah blah..."

What an excellent time for a teachable moment.

As you Liberals are limited in education, you may not know of the American philosopher George Santayana, who wrote (in The Life of Reason, 1905): “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”


So we have you, and (most merciful) Barack Obama who failed to understand the provenance of the Civil War.....and cause woe as a result.




To put it another way.....why do you suppose those of us with an education study the past at all???

Well obviously to lie about the past, since your "education" is obviously very limited.

Another quote from Santayana that the better educated are aware of:
"History is a pack of lies about events that never happened told by people who weren't there."

And a better quote from the author you love most to lie about.

If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens, how incapable must Man be of learning from experience.
George Bernard Shaw

Y'know what I love about the dunces who are so infuriated about my incontestable OPs.....

....they pour out all sorts of vituperation about me....

....not realizing that I am my favorite subject!





Hey...still sporting a quote from the socialist who supported genocide....great!

Do I have your lies down pat before you even spew them?
Why yes, yes I do.

As you well know, the SHAVIAN eugenics you call genocide, an honest person calls women choosing who they mate with. But that is just your lack of education showing.

Same lie you always post with the same lying YouTube video where he satirizes eugenicists and the dishonest liars who made the video ignore the satire.
Can't you come up with any new lies????

Again, only the grossly uneducated fall for the lie in your video. The educated know that Shaw is satirizing eugenicists, and this has been pointed out to you every time you posted the same lie, proving that you are too stupid to learn.

Shaw supported SHAVIAN eugenics in which women create the "Superman" by who they choose to mate with. In your edited video Shaw is mocking all NON-SHAVIAN eugenics, which is the edited part all premeditated liars use, exposing their ignorance and lack of higher education having never read Shaw's play "Man And Superman." Only those ignorant of what is in that play are stupid enough to be deceived by your dishonestly edited video.

Here is a taste of your own medicine:

"America sucks" - Rush Limbaugh

"We are racists, sexists, bigots, homophobes. We discriminate against people who worship differently than we do, have skin color different from ours, and we have not always behaved properly in the world. And we torture." - Rush Limbaugh

You imbecile....he spoke without a teleprompters.

Talk about an uneducated imbecile, "a" is singular and "teleprompters" is plural.

 

[NYcarbineer]

[


So...resolved: slavery was not the precipitation for secession.
......

That's been proven false. Your point, such as it was, about Great Britain may or may not have merit, but it is totally unconnected to the REASON for secession.

She is assuming that there was only ONE reasons for secession. Slavery was actually be encompassed in her reason.

Interesting how you choose to tell what I believe.
You're not smart enough to do that.

Telling what you believe is not a sign of intelligence. I agree with that.

She's just wrong. It isn't any more complicated than that. She's connected two irrelevant points to form an erroneous conclusion.

 

[rightwinger]

The South Seceded so they could create a conservative utopia

A society run by white males that enforces a pool of free labor. A society that doesn't recognize human rights. A society built to ensure the dominance of the white race

 

[Wry Catcher]

says PC the fool!

And you even have to imitate my posts????

So....you have no shame; goes with no brains.

Rather than defend the premise (notice, I did not say her premise) PC once again and always defaults to attacking others. It is an example, once again, of someone seeking attention by trolling - even negative attention is gleeful to someone starved for it.