Why Did Roosevelt Extend WWII By 2 Years??

[PoliticalChic]

Excuse me. I was looking for the History board, but I see by the OP that somehow I have ended up in the Rubber Room....

Bet you said that in every classroom you've ever entered.

The result is evident.

 

[whitehall]

I can't see how WW2 was extended longer than it needed to be. The Normandy landings took place in 1944 and the Ardennes Offensive aka the Battle of the Bulge in Dec 1944 showed that Germany still had a powerful army. Japan was ready to surrender in the Pacific but Harry Truman would not discuss surrender terms until he got to try out his new toy.

 

[Steven_R]

OP is fail.

Logistics (particularly assault boats and cargo carriers) in 1943 as the Mediterranean and Pacific theatres competed for assets made anything other than Italian and western Pacific islands targets.

Until western Europe was assaulted in June 1944, the Axis had no trouble keeping the Allies contained on the Italian boot.

The Axis collapsed 11 months later. If the Allies had stayed in the central and eastern from Mediterranean only from 1942 on, the war in Europe would have lasted until 1948 or later.

Not just that, but the US Army in 42 was both materially and tactically incapable of fighting the Germans. Kasserine Pass illustrated that. It took a year just to get the Army in any shape to fight. In the meantime, we built up to invade Sicily, took on the heavy bombing role (with severe casualties in the process), started building up for France, and was dealing with that minor dust up in the Pacific. By the end of 43, the US was slogging its way through Italy and was putting on the finishing touches for D-Day.

It wasn't like Marshall and King were sitting in DC looking for ways to hamper the war effort on FDR's orders.

 

[Ravi]

Sad to see PC disrespecting some of America's greatest heroes in an attempt to defame FDR.

Why don't you find a nursing home, PC, and tell those old fighters that they are trash, in your opinion.

 

[Steven_R]

Your education is about to be advanced: pay close attention-


The OP stated that "We were secretly master-manipulated" by Stalin and the Soviets.

Let's get an idea of how thorough, and long-range their planning is.....


3. Before we proceed to Stalin's plan for Germany, learn about how the Soviets operate, starting with Pearl Harbor.

Not only did Stalin know about Japanese plans to attack the United States many months in advance, but there is evidence that the Soviets were involved in instigating the attack on America!
(see INVESTIGATIONS: The Case Against I.P.R. - TIME and "Blacklisted By History," Stanton Evans, p. 393-395)




a. From both Tokyo and Washington, KGB cells 'worked in mid-1941 to avert a Japanese invasion of the Soviet Union..."
"Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History," by Leona Schecter and Jerrold Schecter

b. Soviet military intelligence officer, Richard Sorge, directed the espionage network in Tokyo, which included member of the Institute of Pacific Relations, managed to push the Japanese to strike, not north into the Soviet Union, but at American interests.
"Blacklisted By History," Stanton Evans, p. 390-392




4. In Washington, agent Lauchlin Currie, White House economic adviser to President Franklin Roosevelt, worked at undermining any rapprochement between the US and Japan, and influenced the US to provoke the Japanese.





5. In 1995, Kremlin agent Vitaly Pavlov revealed "Operation Snow," the plan to manipulate Japan and America into war.

a.In "Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History," Leona Schecter and Jerrold Schecter make a very strong case for Pearl Harbor being the most complex and successful KGB operation, designed to avert a Japanese attack on the USSR, and to force the United States to fight a two-front war, and be unable to stop Stalin from control of at least half of Europe. In 1995, former Kremlin agent Vitaly Pavlov revealed his role in this "Operation Snow."

b. Pavlov "was sent to the United States seven months before the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor to meet with Harry Dexter White, then director of Monetary Research for the Treasury. Did "Snow" mean "White"? Yes,
Harry Dexter White had been a Soviet "asset" since the early 1930s, providing information to Whittaker Chambers, a courier for the communist underground. By 1941 White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury. Pavlov wrote that the Soviets feared a Japanese attack from the east, and his mission was to discuss with White what could be done to keep the Japanese from joining forces with the Germans."
Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History



Keep in mind 'White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury'.....this will prove important later.




c. "The chapter on Pearl Harbor is likewise instructive as to how Soviet agents operated. Japan seriously considered an attack on Russia, but Stalin’s agents in the Japanese government and in the highly efficient Sorge spy ring on the island nation helped persuade Imperial Japan to turn its aggression “elsewhere.” That “elsewhere” eventually turned out to be Pearl Harbor. Stalin’s acolytes in the U.S. were simultaneously pushing a foreign policy against Japan that would lead the Japanese away from any designs on Siberia and toward conflict with America." Infiltration, intrigue and Communists - Conservative News


Machiavelli could have learned from Stalin!

Interesting conspiracy theory cut and paste

But it does nothing to prove the premise of the OP. Do you even know what your own thread is about?

Completely ignores Japans main motivation, oil. The oil was in the south and controlled by the US and allies. Was no oil in the north.

There is, but it was inaccessible to Japan. Japan only looked into Indochina and the Philippines after the Russians cleaned their clocks in 39 in a nasty border war in Manchuria.

 

[Two Thumbs]

b/c he hadn't killed off enough Americans yet.

There weren't enough jobs for all of them to come back to, so to save his legacy people had to die.

He was, w/o a doubt, the most evil person to ever be President.

 

[JakeStarkey]

b/c he hadn't killed off enough Americans yet.

There weren't enough jobs for all of them to come back to, so to save his legacy people had to die.

He was, w/o a doubt, the most evil person to ever be President.

 

[Camp]

Interesting conspiracy theory cut and paste

But it does nothing to prove the premise of the OP. Do you even know what your own thread is about?

Completely ignores Japans main motivation, oil. The oil was in the south and controlled by the US and allies. Was no oil in the north.

There is, but it was inaccessible to Japan. Japan only looked into Indochina and the Philippines after the Russians cleaned their clocks in 39 in a nasty border war in Manchuria.

It was inaccessible to everyone. There was speculation about Siberian oil in the 30's but it didn't get developed until after the war. First real strike was in 1948. Everything else was as you said, inaccessible to Japan, as you said.

Oil of Russia : www.oilru.com : No. 2, 2010 / THE FIRST SIBERIAN OIL GUSHER

 

[rightwinger]

The leadership of FDR not only helped to end the war early but allowed the US to emerge as the preeminent global power

 

[Idadunno]

The US was still trying to financially recover from WWI, as were the rest of the allied countries. The US could not afford to get involved with the war, so it rented ships to Britain. Roosevelt stalled the allies as long as possible to keep the US out of the war. The country was broke--really, really, seriously broke.
This became a dire situation for the US later in dealing with Japan.
Japan and China have been arm wrestling forever. Japan did not want Nazi Germany to get hold of the oil in China, so it moved in and once France fell under Germany, the French controlled Indochina gave in to Japan and let them have it. Japan has always wanted to expand into China--this is a centuries old on-going thing.
Roosevelt sanctioned Japan to attempt to keep Japan from expanding. Japan had taken Vietnam and the US got most of its rubber from Vietnam so... really, it was just one more thing the US did to piss off Japan. The list is endless, dating back many years and many presidents.
Hitler was developing an atomic bomb. Roosevelt put a rush order on beating Hitler to it before Hitler dropped it on (possibly) the US. Roosevelt had hoped to use the bomb on Hitler to spare troops on the ground. That did not work out, unfortunately, so the US used its bomb on Japan in hopes of squishing an extension of the war.
Russia was an ally of Germany until Hitler broke treaty and attacked them. Russia made nice with the US to keep Germany from taking the country. The US and Russia were not friends at all... but they needed each other to stop a madman.
To truly understand WWII, one must go back to mid 19th century--Otto Bismarck and Prussia.
WWII did not just happen because a crazy person got a uniform, or because of conspiracy theories about presidents. WWII was a direct result of WWI. What we learned from all that was not to leave countries in destitute situations after wars, never let a madman expand too far, and containment is a country's best friend. We learn from history... but the problem is that few people bother to learn history because conspiracy theories and guesstimations are much more fun.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Do you contest the accepted historical record that indicates that the decision for unconditional surrender was reached at Casablanca? How was Stalin involved if he was not there? What are the sources relied upon to reach this conclusion?

Your education is about to be advanced: pay close attention-


The OP stated that "We were secretly master-manipulated" by Stalin and the Soviets.

Let's get an idea of how thorough, and long-range their planning is.....


3. Before we proceed to Stalin's plan for Germany, learn about how the Soviets operate, starting with Pearl Harbor.

Not only did Stalin know about Japanese plans to attack the United States many months in advance, but there is evidence that the Soviets were involved in instigating the attack on America!
(see INVESTIGATIONS: The Case Against I.P.R. - TIME and "Blacklisted By History," Stanton Evans, p. 393-395)




a. From both Tokyo and Washington, KGB cells 'worked in mid-1941 to avert a Japanese invasion of the Soviet Union..."
"Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History," by Leona Schecter and Jerrold Schecter

b. Soviet military intelligence officer, Richard Sorge, directed the espionage network in Tokyo, which included member of the Institute of Pacific Relations, managed to push the Japanese to strike, not north into the Soviet Union, but at American interests.
"Blacklisted By History," Stanton Evans, p. 390-392




4. In Washington, agent Lauchlin Currie, White House economic adviser to President Franklin Roosevelt, worked at undermining any rapprochement between the US and Japan, and influenced the US to provoke the Japanese.





5. In 1995, Kremlin agent Vitaly Pavlov revealed "Operation Snow," the plan to manipulate Japan and America into war.

a.In "Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History," Leona Schecter and Jerrold Schecter make a very strong case for Pearl Harbor being the most complex and successful KGB operation, designed to avert a Japanese attack on the USSR, and to force the United States to fight a two-front war, and be unable to stop Stalin from control of at least half of Europe. In 1995, former Kremlin agent Vitaly Pavlov revealed his role in this "Operation Snow."

b. Pavlov "was sent to the United States seven months before the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor to meet with Harry Dexter White, then director of Monetary Research for the Treasury. Did "Snow" mean "White"? Yes,
Harry Dexter White had been a Soviet "asset" since the early 1930s, providing information to Whittaker Chambers, a courier for the communist underground. By 1941 White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury. Pavlov wrote that the Soviets feared a Japanese attack from the east, and his mission was to discuss with White what could be done to keep the Japanese from joining forces with the Germans."
Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History



Keep in mind 'White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury'.....this will prove important later.




c. "The chapter on Pearl Harbor is likewise instructive as to how Soviet agents operated. Japan seriously considered an attack on Russia, but Stalin’s agents in the Japanese government and in the highly efficient Sorge spy ring on the island nation helped persuade Imperial Japan to turn its aggression “elsewhere.” That “elsewhere” eventually turned out to be Pearl Harbor. Stalin’s acolytes in the U.S. were simultaneously pushing a foreign policy against Japan that would lead the Japanese away from any designs on Siberia and toward conflict with America." Infiltration, intrigue and Communists - Conservative News


Machiavelli could have learned from Stalin!

Interesting conspiracy theory cut and paste

But it does nothing to prove the premise of the OP. Do you even know what your own thread is about?

Now, I know that you are so old that you hesitate to buy green bananas.....but, try to relax....

I said I'd prove the premise....but not in bumper-stickers.
I document, and link.....

OK...your next lesson is here:

6. The OP provides an indication of the ability, the motive, and the malevolence of Soviet machinations, as does the post revealing the KGB plan to set Japan and the United States at each other's throats.


Earlier I said not to forget this, as it is most significant:
" Harry Dexter White had been a Soviet "asset" since the early 1930s, providing information to Whittaker Chambers, a courier for the communist underground. By 1941 White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury."

This was Stalin's leverage to extend WWII.
White had Morganthau agree to Stalin's plan for Germany.

Stalin and his spies in the Roosevelt administration insisted....demanded!.....that Germany not be allowed to surrender. It had to be obliterated....

....even though this meant extending the war and dramatically increasing Allies casualties.





Soviet agents engineered the Morgenthau Plan.

7. Morganthau Plan: "The Morgenthau Plan, first proposed by United States Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau, Jr. in a memorandum entitled Suggested Post-Surrender Program for Germany, advocated that the Allied occupation of Germany following World War II include measures to eliminate Germany's ability to wage war by eliminating its armament industry, and the removal or destruction of other key industries basic to military strength. This included the removal or destruction of all industrial plants and equipment in the Ruhr area. "
Morgenthau Plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


a. " Morgenthau, Henry (1944). "Suggested Post-Surrender Program for Germany [The original memorandum from 1944, signed by Morgenthau] (text and facsimile)".
Box 31, Folder Germany: Jan.-Sept. 1944 (i297). Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum (published 27 May 2004).
Archived from the original on 12 November 2013.
"Demilitarization of Germany: It should be the aim of the Allied Forces to accomplish the complete demilitarization of Germany in the shortest possible period of time after surrender. This means completely disarming the German Army and people (including the removal or destruction of all war material), the total destruction of the whole German armament industry, and the removal or destruction of other key industries which are basic to military strength."






8. Now note the testimony by converted Soviet spy, Elizabeth Bentley, who revealed Stalin's plans for Germany:
Elizabeth Bentley, a former operative of the Soviet underground testified before the Senate subcommittee on August 14, 1951, naming some 80 Soviet spies. Her testimony was summarized in an FBI report, dated November 25, 1945.

Glimpse the methods and purpose of the Soviet operation:

Miss Bentley testified as follows about the Morgenthau plan, Stalin's plans for Germany:
Senator Eastland: "Did you know who drew that plan?"
Miss Bentley: "Due to Mr. [Harry Dexter] White's influence, to push the devastation of Germany, because that was what the Russians wanted."
Senator Ferguson: "That was what the Communists wanted?"

Miss Bentley: "Definitely Moscow wanted them completely razed because then they would be of no help to the allies."
Senator Eastland: "What you say is that it was a Communist plot to destroy Germany and weaken her to where she could not help us?"

Miss Bentley: "That is correct. She could no longer be a barrier to protect the western world." Manly, 'The Twenty Year Revolution,' p.102-103



Again: ""Due to Mr. [Harry Dexter] White's influence, to push the devastation of Germany, because that was what the Russians wanted."




For Stalin, Communism's post-war march across Europe could be stymied by a Germany with any military potential. What better way to obviate same than by using the Allies to obliterate....not merely accept the surrender.....but obliterate his most fearsome enemy.



The only question is why Roosevelt agreed to it....and the extension of the war by several years....

 

[rightwinger]

Your education is about to be advanced: pay close attention-


The OP stated that "We were secretly master-manipulated" by Stalin and the Soviets.

Let's get an idea of how thorough, and long-range their planning is.....


3. Before we proceed to Stalin's plan for Germany, learn about how the Soviets operate, starting with Pearl Harbor.

Not only did Stalin know about Japanese plans to attack the United States many months in advance, but there is evidence that the Soviets were involved in instigating the attack on America!
(see INVESTIGATIONS: The Case Against I.P.R. - TIME and "Blacklisted By History," Stanton Evans, p. 393-395)




a. From both Tokyo and Washington, KGB cells 'worked in mid-1941 to avert a Japanese invasion of the Soviet Union..."
"Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History," by Leona Schecter and Jerrold Schecter

b. Soviet military intelligence officer, Richard Sorge, directed the espionage network in Tokyo, which included member of the Institute of Pacific Relations, managed to push the Japanese to strike, not north into the Soviet Union, but at American interests.
"Blacklisted By History," Stanton Evans, p. 390-392




4. In Washington, agent Lauchlin Currie, White House economic adviser to President Franklin Roosevelt, worked at undermining any rapprochement between the US and Japan, and influenced the US to provoke the Japanese.





5. In 1995, Kremlin agent Vitaly Pavlov revealed "Operation Snow," the plan to manipulate Japan and America into war.

a.In "Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History," Leona Schecter and Jerrold Schecter make a very strong case for Pearl Harbor being the most complex and successful KGB operation, designed to avert a Japanese attack on the USSR, and to force the United States to fight a two-front war, and be unable to stop Stalin from control of at least half of Europe. In 1995, former Kremlin agent Vitaly Pavlov revealed his role in this "Operation Snow."

b. Pavlov "was sent to the United States seven months before the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor to meet with Harry Dexter White, then director of Monetary Research for the Treasury. Did "Snow" mean "White"? Yes,
Harry Dexter White had been a Soviet "asset" since the early 1930s, providing information to Whittaker Chambers, a courier for the communist underground. By 1941 White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury. Pavlov wrote that the Soviets feared a Japanese attack from the east, and his mission was to discuss with White what could be done to keep the Japanese from joining forces with the Germans."
Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History



Keep in mind 'White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury'.....this will prove important later.




c. "The chapter on Pearl Harbor is likewise instructive as to how Soviet agents operated. Japan seriously considered an attack on Russia, but Stalin’s agents in the Japanese government and in the highly efficient Sorge spy ring on the island nation helped persuade Imperial Japan to turn its aggression “elsewhere.” That “elsewhere” eventually turned out to be Pearl Harbor. Stalin’s acolytes in the U.S. were simultaneously pushing a foreign policy against Japan that would lead the Japanese away from any designs on Siberia and toward conflict with America." Infiltration, intrigue and Communists - Conservative News


Machiavelli could have learned from Stalin!

Interesting conspiracy theory cut and paste

But it does nothing to prove the premise of the OP. Do you even know what your own thread is about?

Now, I know that you are so old that you hesitate to buy green bananas.....but, try to relax....

I said I'd prove the premise....but not in bumper-stickers.
I document, and link.....

OK...your next lesson is here:

6. The OP provides an indication of the ability, the motive, and the malevolence of Soviet machinations, as does the post revealing the KGB plan to set Japan and the United States at each other's throats.


Earlier I said not to forget this, as it is most significant:
" Harry Dexter White had been a Soviet "asset" since the early 1930s, providing information to Whittaker Chambers, a courier for the communist underground. By 1941 White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury."

This was Stalin's leverage to extend WWII.
White had Morganthau agree to Stalin's plan for Germany.

Stalin and his spies in the Roosevelt administration insisted....demanded!.....that Germany not be allowed to surrender. It had to be obliterated....

....even though this meant extending the war and dramatically increasing Allies casualties.





Soviet agents engineered the Morgenthau Plan.

7. Morganthau Plan: "The Morgenthau Plan, first proposed by United States Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau, Jr. in a memorandum entitled Suggested Post-Surrender Program for Germany, advocated that the Allied occupation of Germany following World War II include measures to eliminate Germany's ability to wage war by eliminating its armament industry, and the removal or destruction of other key industries basic to military strength. This included the removal or destruction of all industrial plants and equipment in the Ruhr area. "
Morgenthau Plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


a. " Morgenthau, Henry (1944). "Suggested Post-Surrender Program for Germany [The original memorandum from 1944, signed by Morgenthau] (text and facsimile)".
Box 31, Folder Germany: Jan.-Sept. 1944 (i297). Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum (published 27 May 2004).
Archived from the original on 12 November 2013.
"Demilitarization of Germany: It should be the aim of the Allied Forces to accomplish the complete demilitarization of Germany in the shortest possible period of time after surrender. This means completely disarming the German Army and people (including the removal or destruction of all war material), the total destruction of the whole German armament industry, and the removal or destruction of other key industries which are basic to military strength."






8. Now note the testimony by converted Soviet spy, Elizabeth Bentley, who revealed Stalin's plans for Germany:
Elizabeth Bentley, a former operative of the Soviet underground testified before the Senate subcommittee on August 14, 1951, naming some 80 Soviet spies. Her testimony was summarized in an FBI report, dated November 25, 1945.

Glimpse the methods and purpose of the Soviet operation:

Miss Bentley testified as follows about the Morgenthau plan, Stalin's plans for Germany:
Senator Eastland: "Did you know who drew that plan?"
Miss Bentley: "Due to Mr. [Harry Dexter] White's influence, to push the devastation of Germany, because that was what the Russians wanted."
Senator Ferguson: "That was what the Communists wanted?"

Miss Bentley: "Definitely Moscow wanted them completely razed because then they would be of no help to the allies."
Senator Eastland: "What you say is that it was a Communist plot to destroy Germany and weaken her to where she could not help us?"

Miss Bentley: "That is correct. She could no longer be a barrier to protect the western world." Manly, 'The Twenty Year Revolution,' p.102-103



Again: ""Due to Mr. [Harry Dexter] White's influence, to push the devastation of Germany, because that was what the Russians wanted."




For Stalin, Communism's post-war march across Europe could be stymied by a Germany with any military potential. What better way to obviate same than by using the Allies to obliterate....not merely accept the surrender.....but obliterate his most fearsome enemy.



The only question is why Roosevelt agreed to it....and the extension of the war by several years....

LOL

Does nothing to prove the assertion of your own thread that the war could have ended two years earlier

Why don't you cut and paste some more rightwing revisionist propaganda?

 

[Mad_Cabbie]

What would have happened if things had been different, and counter-factual world history is notoriously difficult to prove.

The world is the way it is and if it were different, we would just as clueless as to what "might have been,"

That being said, no one was in a position to end the war in 1943. The biggest navel victory of all time helped to end the war by cutting japan off from its oil.

The Battle of Leyte Gulf turned the tide. It was the largest naval battle in history, in terms both of tonnage displaced, and area traversed.

That notwithstanding, I understand what the OP is saying and I'm certainly not dismissing it.

I'm not certain that we would have been in a position to negotiate anything with any kind of authority.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Interesting conspiracy theory cut and paste

But it does nothing to prove the premise of the OP. Do you even know what your own thread is about?

Now, I know that you are so old that you hesitate to buy green bananas.....but, try to relax....

I said I'd prove the premise....but not in bumper-stickers.
I document, and link.....

OK...your next lesson is here:

6. The OP provides an indication of the ability, the motive, and the malevolence of Soviet machinations, as does the post revealing the KGB plan to set Japan and the United States at each other's throats.


Earlier I said not to forget this, as it is most significant:
" Harry Dexter White had been a Soviet "asset" since the early 1930s, providing information to Whittaker Chambers, a courier for the communist underground. By 1941 White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury."

This was Stalin's leverage to extend WWII.
White had Morganthau agree to Stalin's plan for Germany.

Stalin and his spies in the Roosevelt administration insisted....demanded!.....that Germany not be allowed to surrender. It had to be obliterated....

....even though this meant extending the war and dramatically increasing Allies casualties.





Soviet agents engineered the Morgenthau Plan.

7. Morganthau Plan: "The Morgenthau Plan, first proposed by United States Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau, Jr. in a memorandum entitled Suggested Post-Surrender Program for Germany, advocated that the Allied occupation of Germany following World War II include measures to eliminate Germany's ability to wage war by eliminating its armament industry, and the removal or destruction of other key industries basic to military strength. This included the removal or destruction of all industrial plants and equipment in the Ruhr area. "
Morgenthau Plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


a. " Morgenthau, Henry (1944). "Suggested Post-Surrender Program for Germany [The original memorandum from 1944, signed by Morgenthau] (text and facsimile)".
Box 31, Folder Germany: Jan.-Sept. 1944 (i297). Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum (published 27 May 2004).
Archived from the original on 12 November 2013.
"Demilitarization of Germany: It should be the aim of the Allied Forces to accomplish the complete demilitarization of Germany in the shortest possible period of time after surrender. This means completely disarming the German Army and people (including the removal or destruction of all war material), the total destruction of the whole German armament industry, and the removal or destruction of other key industries which are basic to military strength."






8. Now note the testimony by converted Soviet spy, Elizabeth Bentley, who revealed Stalin's plans for Germany:
Elizabeth Bentley, a former operative of the Soviet underground testified before the Senate subcommittee on August 14, 1951, naming some 80 Soviet spies. Her testimony was summarized in an FBI report, dated November 25, 1945.

Glimpse the methods and purpose of the Soviet operation:

Miss Bentley testified as follows about the Morgenthau plan, Stalin's plans for Germany:
Senator Eastland: "Did you know who drew that plan?"
Miss Bentley: "Due to Mr. [Harry Dexter] White's influence, to push the devastation of Germany, because that was what the Russians wanted."
Senator Ferguson: "That was what the Communists wanted?"

Miss Bentley: "Definitely Moscow wanted them completely razed because then they would be of no help to the allies."
Senator Eastland: "What you say is that it was a Communist plot to destroy Germany and weaken her to where she could not help us?"

Miss Bentley: "That is correct. She could no longer be a barrier to protect the western world." Manly, 'The Twenty Year Revolution,' p.102-103



Again: ""Due to Mr. [Harry Dexter] White's influence, to push the devastation of Germany, because that was what the Russians wanted."




For Stalin, Communism's post-war march across Europe could be stymied by a Germany with any military potential. What better way to obviate same than by using the Allies to obliterate....not merely accept the surrender.....but obliterate his most fearsome enemy.



The only question is why Roosevelt agreed to it....and the extension of the war by several years....

LOL

Does nothing to prove the assertion of your own thread that the war could have ended two years earlier

Why don't you cut and paste some more rightwing revisionist propaganda?

Now....stay with this.....and have that pair of cardiac paddles handy....

...I'd hate to lose you just as I reach the denouement!!

 

[PoliticalChic]

What would have happened if things had been different, and counter-factual world history is notoriously difficult to prove.

The world is the way it is and if it were different, we would just as clueless as to what "might have been,"

That being said, no one was in a position to end the war in 1943. The biggest navel victory of all time helped to end the war by cutting japan off from its oil.

The Battle of Leyte Gulf turned the tide. It was the largest naval battle in history, in terms both of tonnage displaced, and area traversed.

That notwithstanding, I understand what the OP is saying and I'm certainly not dismissing it.

I'm not certain that we would have been in a position to negotiate anything with any kind authority.

1. "... we would just as clueless...."
That's why I'm here.


2. " ...no one was in a position to end the war in 1943."

Au contraire, brainless...er, headless one!

This thread will prove otherwise.


3. "...I understand what the OP is saying and I'm certainly not dismissing it."

Hold your applause 'til the end....my curtsey.

 

[Camp]

This is one of the weakest conspiracy theories you have ever posted PC. That is saying a lot. Your thesis isn't even held together with a thin thread. More like old cob webs. You should know better than to use those old worn out unreliable and bogus sources to make your points here.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

There was no other option, but unconditional surrender...Hitler was never going to negotiate any peace treaty.
The plan used to pursue the war allowed the US as an untested military force,, to learn how to fight the modern war of combined arms and to build up armed forces which were still weak at unit level. Hitler did the same during the 1930's with the new strategy of blitzkrieg...His troops were allowed to gain experience before taking on France..and Russia.
Hindsight is 20-20 to the uninitiated...

The Germans would have surrendered to the US and Brits in a heartbeat. They knew Stalin was a fucking savage who already starved 3 million kids in the Ukraine in 1933

Most laughable....Hitler never surrendered, even when the Ruskies were on his doorstep....Your fallacy of the truth has been demoted to another hate filled attempt to yet again play character assassin to a dead man....

Hitler never surrendered to Uncle Joe. That's the whole point!

 

[PoliticalChic]

This is one of the weakest conspiracy theories you have ever posted PC. That is saying a lot. Your thesis isn't even held together with a thin thread. More like old cob webs. You should know better than to use those old worn out unreliable and bogus sources to make your points here.

Now....give me a chance to go over all the list you've comprised of all the mistakes in my posts so far.....


....wait.....you didn't provide any?????


(And....the best is yet to come.)

 

[Camp]

This is one of the weakest conspiracy theories you have ever posted PC. That is saying a lot. Your thesis isn't even held together with a thin thread. More like old cob webs. You should know better than to use those old worn out unreliable and bogus sources to make your points here.

Now....give me a chance to go over all the list you've comprised of all the mistakes in my posts so far.....


....wait.....you didn't provide any?????


(And....the best is yet to come.)

Yes I did. I pointed out a very key blatant omission you made in ignoring the Casablanca Conference and your apparent lack of knowledge about availability of oil resources to Japan if they had made an early attack on Russia.

 

[PoliticalChic]

This is one of the weakest conspiracy theories you have ever posted PC. That is saying a lot. Your thesis isn't even held together with a thin thread. More like old cob webs. You should know better than to use those old worn out unreliable and bogus sources to make your points here.

Now....give me a chance to go over all the list you've comprised of all the mistakes in my posts so far.....


....wait.....you didn't provide any?????


(And....the best is yet to come.)

Yes I did. I pointed out a very key blatant omission you made in ignoring the Casablanca Conference and your apparent lack of knowledge about availability of oil resources to Japan if they had made an early attack on Russia.

"the list you've comprised of all the mistakes in my posts so far..."


None.