Why Did FDR Censor Criticism of Stalin?

[PoliticalChic]

PoliticalChic's OP Why Did FDR Censor Criticism of Stalin? has been competently answered: to win the war and nothing more.

Let's move on.

I used to believe your were a gibbering idiot.

Now my opinion of you is much lower.

 

[regent]

PoliticalChic's OP Why Did FDR Censor Criticism of Stalin? has been competently answered: to win the war and nothing more.

Let's move on.

I say the argument will be back in two days, if not sooner. Posters will go over that and other problems from those FDR years once again.
In the course of FDR's three plus terms, that included the Great Depression and WWII, probably the most momentous period in our modern history, a lot of ground was covered. In that ground can be found incidents and events that can be used to question FDR's rating as best American president, and those are topics that will continue to be brought up until historians see the error of their ways and rate a Republican as best American president.

 

[PoliticalChic]

PoliticalChic's OP Why Did FDR Censor Criticism of Stalin? has been competently answered: to win the war and nothing more.

Let's move on.

I say the argument will be back in two days, if not sooner. Posters will go over that and other problems from those FDR years once again.
In the course of FDR's three plus terms, that included the Great Depression and WWII, probably the most momentous period in our modern history, a lot of ground was covered. In that ground can be found incidents and events that can be used to question FDR's rating as best American president, and those are topics that will continue to be brought up until historians see the error of their ways and rate a Republican as best American president.

"In that ground can be found incidents and events that can be used to question FDR's rating as best American president, and those are topics that will continue to be brought up until historians see the error of their ways and rate a Republican as best American president."



“Many a true word hath been spoken in jest.”


― William Shakespeare, King Lear

 

[LA RAM FAN]

You weren't alive then and neither was I. But I think FDR didn't really understand Stalin or Communism. America allied itself with the Soviets in a war to fight fascism, then the cold war came, cold war went. Communism and fascism both lost. Coincidence, maybe? FDR wasn’t some kind of divine oracle. He was elected 12 years by people suffering from the depression. I can respect THAT. People recognize evil and they reject it, eventually.

You might want to explain why he rushed to recognize the homicidal regime shortly after he was elected....reversing the long standing policy of previous Presidents.
He did so in 1933, long before any war with Germany was anticipated.

1. "Four Presidents and their six Secretaries of State for over a decade and a half held to this resolve," i.e., refusal to recognize the Soviet government. That was written by Herbert Hoover, one of those four Presidents. He wrote it in his "Freedom Betrayed: Herbert Hoover's Secret History of the Second World War and Its Aftermath" by George H. Nash, published posthumously, obviously, in 2011, pg 24-29.



In doing so, he ignored murder and massacres by Stalin.

2. Bear in mind, eight months earlier, journalist Gareth Jones had exposed Stalin's Terror Famine: "In the train a Communist denied to me that there was a famine. I flung a crust of bread which I had been eating from my own supply into a spittoon. A peasant fellow-passenger fished it out and ravenously ate it." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gareth_Jones_(journalist)

a. Malcolm Muggeridge "was the first writer to reveal the true nature of Stalin s regime when in 1933 he exposed the terror famine in the Ukraine. " [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Time-Eternity-Uncollected-Writings-Muggeridge/dp/1570759057]Time and Eternity: The Uncollected Writings of Malcolm Muggeridge: Malcolm Muggeridge, Nicholas Flynn: 9781570759055: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]

a. So FDR knew of the Terror Famine...yet he enveloped Joe Stalin in " the cloak of his popularity..." Time Magazine, December 17, 1934.




"Communism and fascism both lost."
Do you not understand that Roosevelt did everything he could to make certain that the USSR survived to dominate and subjugate millions of Eastern Europeans.....and to dictate United States policy for years?

It remained for Ronald Reagan to reverse that.

"Still, it should be beyond cavil that the Soviets were big winners and that their scheming, markedly advanced by their penetration of the White House and State Department, forged the post-war order dominated to this day by transnational progressives, at considerable cost to American sovereignty and liberty."
Red herrings by Andrew C. McCarthy - The New Criterion




Bottom line: it would be difficult for any informed individual to argue that Stalin was any better than Adolph Hitler.

Man the world must be coming to an end.i cant believe I am actually siding with her for once but this says it all right here and spells it out.The bastard went around coddling with a known dictater.traitor.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

PoliticalChic's OP Why Did FDR Censor Criticism of Stalin? has been competently answered: to win the war and nothing more.

Let's move on.

I say the argument will be back in two days, if not sooner. Posters will go over that and other problems from those FDR years once again.
In the course of FDR's three plus terms, that included the Great Depression and WWII, probably the most momentous period in our modern history, a lot of ground was covered. In that ground can be found incidents and events that can be used to question FDR's rating as best American president, and those are topics that will continue to be brought up until historians see the error of their ways and rate a Republican as best American president.

The last great republican president we had was Calvin Coolidge.

 

[Steven_R]

My point was American's were lacking material at the BEGINNING of the war. We have discussed this in other threads and documented it. The USSR was being flooded with munitions, while Americans in the Pacific were lacking, at the BEGINNING of the war. Do the research yourself.

Your point was that FDR provided Stalin with huge amounts of war material after the war began and was being waged that was needed in the Pacific. Now you are saying your point is that the American forces were lacking at the BEGINNING and that we were flooding the USSR with munitions. The problem I have with those claims, which ever one you decide to stick with, is that the lend lease program with Russia wasn't agreed upon and signed until Nov of 1941. Less than a month before the Japanese attack of Dec 7 at Pearl and Dec. 8 at Singapor. At that point in time the Russian's had only gotten 59 fighter aircraft from us, and that was a straight out purchase. The only aircraft that they got at that point in time under lend lease were 5 B-25 Mitchell's. FDR refused to sell or give them B-17's or B-26's, which is what they were begging for.
The Russian's got very little in the way of actual munitions during the course of the war. 2/3's of the heavy trucks (2 1/2 TON) in their "arsenal", about 20,000 vehicals came from the US through lend lease. They got alot of raw material so they could manufacture their own equipment, which they did.

You are telling ME what my point was...too funny.

My point was clear...FDR provided Stalin vast quantities of war material even AFTER Pearl Harbor and our entry into the war. He provided even MORE than the murderous Uncle Joe requested. This hurt our war effort in the Pacific. That is historical fact.

Yes, my use of the word munitions, was incorrect...it was war materials as you describe.

Germany was the primary concern and always was. The Pacific was a sideshow. It makes perfect sense to arm the Russians so they can bleed Germany white so that the US could assist England and liberate France and the Low Countries.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Truman had the guts to drop the A-bomb, ended WWII But then we question his decision ad infinitum. Since then everyone and their Uncle thought America was wrong for everything... Funny thing about HINDSIGHT. Everyone knows all the facts. Yeah. Like how the Japanese shouldn't have invaded China or attacked Pearl Harbor, or how Germany shouldn't have invaded Poland and started WWII. Yeah, we ALL knew that. Well then there is that creep Edward Snowden, he IS a traitor. He made Benedict Arnold look like piker.

snowden a traiter? comedy gold. Thanks for defending the atrocities of our evil government.He is a traiter for exposing the corruption that goes on in our government. Next thing you'll be saying is Daniel Ellsberg was a traiter for exposing what an evil bastard that mass murderer dick Nixon was.

 

[gipper]

Your point was that FDR provided Stalin with huge amounts of war material after the war began and was being waged that was needed in the Pacific. Now you are saying your point is that the American forces were lacking at the BEGINNING and that we were flooding the USSR with munitions. The problem I have with those claims, which ever one you decide to stick with, is that the lend lease program with Russia wasn't agreed upon and signed until Nov of 1941. Less than a month before the Japanese attack of Dec 7 at Pearl and Dec. 8 at Singapor. At that point in time the Russian's had only gotten 59 fighter aircraft from us, and that was a straight out purchase. The only aircraft that they got at that point in time under lend lease were 5 B-25 Mitchell's. FDR refused to sell or give them B-17's or B-26's, which is what they were begging for.
The Russian's got very little in the way of actual munitions during the course of the war. 2/3's of the heavy trucks (2 1/2 TON) in their "arsenal", about 20,000 vehicals came from the US through lend lease. They got alot of raw material so they could manufacture their own equipment, which they did.

You are telling ME what my point was...too funny.

My point was clear...FDR provided Stalin vast quantities of war material even AFTER Pearl Harbor and our entry into the war. He provided even MORE than the murderous Uncle Joe requested. This hurt our war effort in the Pacific. That is historical fact.

Yes, my use of the word munitions, was incorrect...it was war materials as you describe.

Germany was the primary concern and always was. The Pacific was a sideshow. It makes perfect sense to arm the Russians so they can bleed Germany white so that the US could assist England and liberate France and the Low Countries.

Let me complete your post....and to enslave half of Europe to the world's most evil political ideology and most heinous dictator...and for an added bonus, make the back water nation...the USSR a superpower.

Good job.

 

[regent]

The way this thread sounds it's as if Britain and America had three choices not two during WWII. In the days of WWII we thought we had only two choices rid Europe of Germany or the USSR, and we chose Germany.
Today, some 70 years later it sounds like we had a third choice, rid Europe of both Germany and the USSR. Am I reading this revision correctly?

 

[Camp]

The way this thread sounds it's as if Britain and America had three choices not two during WWII. In the days of WWII we thought we had only two choices rid Europe of Germany or the USSR, and we chose Germany.
Today, some 70 years later it sounds like we had a third choice, rid Europe of both Germany and the USSR. Am I reading this revision correctly?

The premise is ridiculous, as most conspiricy theorys are, but it is entertaining. I'm finding it difficult to keep up with the distorted quotes and lame sources being posted. Maj. Jordan's testimony for McCarthy at the House Committee on Un-American Affairs and his later writings are the original source for the claim that FDR sent atomic bomb secrets to Stalin. Jordan could have been tried for treason. Jordan was the guy in charge of checking, inspecting and approving items and material sent to Russia for lend lease under his command stucture, which included the material in question relating to the so called atomic bomb materials. Investigations did in fact show that these items where shipped by rail to Montana to be loaded onto C-47's for transport to Alaska where they were turned over to Russian pilots for the remainder of the flight to Siberia (standard procedure). The problem for Jordan is that not one document or scrap of evidence was ever found that indicated approval of any sort for the loading of the material onto the transports. Jordan had a stunning excuse for this awkward occurance.
Jordan claimed this shipment was the first and only shipment he ever released without the proper paperwork. Why did he do this? He claimed in his testimony and later writings that the top Russian laison insisted this was a top secret shipment approved by the highest authorities in the US Gov. Jordan claims he remained steadfast and would not release the cargo for shipment. Now it gets really weird. According to Jordan himself, the Russian laison made a phone call. Keep in mind this is all happening person to person between the Russian and Jordan at the airbase in Montana. From Jordan's own words, the laison begins the phone conversation speaking in Russian! He hands the phone to Jordan and tells him his (Jordan's) boss wants to speak to him. A man on the line identifies himself as Jordan's boss, Harry Hopkins. Jordan admits he had never spoken with Hopkins. He claims the man identifying himself as Hopkins instructs him to keep the shipment secret and not to record the cargo. He tells him that twice, making it clear that no record is to be made and Jordan should not discuss the shipment with anyone. Jordan makes no attempt to confirm with Hopkin's office that Hopkin's had in fact communicated with him. That is his story.
That is the original source for the nonsense that FDR shipped secret atomic bomb material and information to Stalin. What was more likely a theft of material orchestrated by the Russian's and facilatated by an American officier. His piss poor explaination of how the shipment got past him worked because the Un-American Affairs Committee was looking for something else besides simple corruption. The Russians simply outsmarting the Americans and achieving an intelligence coup did not fit with the whole government infiltrated with Soviet spies agenda.

 

[PoliticalChic]

The way this thread sounds it's as if Britain and America had three choices not two during WWII. In the days of WWII we thought we had only two choices rid Europe of Germany or the USSR, and we chose Germany.
Today, some 70 years later it sounds like we had a third choice, rid Europe of both Germany and the USSR. Am I reading this revision correctly?

FDR certainly had another choice.....one advised by experts in the State Department, and by the Soviet expert George Kennan....



1. "Not only did FDR overlook the external evidence; FDR ignored the counsel of key experts at the State Department, which, at the time, was home...to an educated and experienced cadre of anti-Communists....who would be neutralized and purged....n 1937...the Russian research library at the State Department was broken up, the files on Communists, foreign and domestic, ordered destroyed. The second, in 1943. Both purges took place under Soviet pressure and even direction as when in March 1943 Foreign Minister Litvinov, incredibly, handed over a list of American diplomats the Soviets wanted fired....a "guilt offering to Stalin from Roosevelt"...
West, "American Betrayal," p.193.



2. " After commenting bitterly on the “inexcusable body of ignorance about the Russian Communist movement, about the history of its diplomacy, about what had happened in
the purges, and about what had been going on in Poland and the Baltic States,” Kennan turns more directly to FDR alone: I also have in mind FDRs evident conviction that Stalin, while perhaps a somewhat difficult customer, was only, after all, a person like any other person; that the reason we hadn’t been able to get along with him in the past was that we had never really had anyone with the proper personality and the proper qualities of sympathy and imagination to deal with him, that he had been snubbed all along by the arrogant conservatives of the Western capitals; and that if only he could be exposed to the persuasive charms of someone like FDR himself, ideological preconceptions would melt and Russia’s cooperation with the West could be easily arranged. For these assumptions
there were no grounds whatsover; and they were of a puerility that was unworthy of a statesman of FDRs stature?
http://www.mmisi.org/ma/30_02/nisbet.pdf



3. Nor was Kennan the only one warning FDR:
a. In a letter to FDR, dated January 29, 1943, William Bullitt (Franklin D. Roosevelt appointed Bullitt the first US ambassador to the Soviet Union, a post that he filled from 1933 to 1936.) warned Roosevelt about what would happen if he continued pursuing the policies of appeasement toward Stalin that formed the foundation of the American war strategy. He pleaded with FDR not to 'permit our war to prevent Nazi domination of Europe to be turned into a war to establish Soviet domination of Europe.' He predicted the Soviet annexation of half of Europe; George Kennan identified that letter as the earliest warning of what would be the result of FDR's policies.
"For the President Personal & Secret: Correspondence Between Franklin D. Roosevelt and William C. Bullitt," Orville H. Bullitt, p. 575-590


4. What could, should have happened?
When the (anticipated) event that Hitler would attack Stalin's Russia, as they did June 21st, 1941, America should have done nothing...no more than relaxing restrictions on exports to the Russians...but at the same time securing a quid pro quo for further assistance! Lend-Lease should not have been the automatic and unlimited buffet that it turned into! "Finally, should the Soviet regime fall,...we should refuse to recognize a Communist government-in-exile, leaving the path clear for establishment for a non-Communist government in Russia after the war." These were the words of Loy Henderson, Soviet and Eastern European affairs expert and Foreign Service officer, as quoted by
Martin Weil in "A pretty good club: The founding fathers of the U.S. Foreign Service," p. 106.

 

[Steven_R]

You are telling ME what my point was...too funny.

My point was clear...FDR provided Stalin vast quantities of war material even AFTER Pearl Harbor and our entry into the war. He provided even MORE than the murderous Uncle Joe requested. This hurt our war effort in the Pacific. That is historical fact.

Yes, my use of the word munitions, was incorrect...it was war materials as you describe.

Germany was the primary concern and always was. The Pacific was a sideshow. It makes perfect sense to arm the Russians so they can bleed Germany white so that the US could assist England and liberate France and the Low Countries.

Let me complete your post....and to enslave half of Europe to the world's most evil political ideology and most heinous dictator...and for an added bonus, make the back water nation...the USSR a superpower.

Good job.

Poland was expendable. France and Britain weren't.

 

[PoliticalChic]

The way this thread sounds it's as if Britain and America had three choices not two during WWII. In the days of WWII we thought we had only two choices rid Europe of Germany or the USSR, and we chose Germany.
Today, some 70 years later it sounds like we had a third choice, rid Europe of both Germany and the USSR. Am I reading this revision correctly?

The premise is ridiculous, as most conspiricy theorys are, but it is entertaining. I'm finding it difficult to keep up with the distorted quotes and lame sources being posted. Maj. Jordan's testimony for McCarthy at the House Committee on Un-American Affairs and his later writings are the original source for the claim that FDR sent atomic bomb secrets to Stalin. Jordan could have been tried for treason. Jordan was the guy in charge of checking, inspecting and approving items and material sent to Russia for lend lease under his command stucture, which included the material in question relating to the so called atomic bomb materials. Investigations did in fact show that these items where shipped by rail to Montana to be loaded onto C-47's for transport to Alaska where they were turned over to Russian pilots for the remainder of the flight to Siberia (standard procedure). The problem for Jordan is that not one document or scrap of evidence was ever found that indicated approval of any sort for the loading of the material onto the transports. Jordan had a stunning excuse for this awkward occurance.
Jordan claimed this shipment was the first and only shipment he ever released without the proper paperwork. Why did he do this? He claimed in his testimony and later writings that the top Russian laison insisted this was a top secret shipment approved by the highest authorities in the US Gov. Jordan claims he remained steadfast and would not release the cargo for shipment. Now it gets really weird. According to Jordan himself, the Russian laison made a phone call. Keep in mind this is all happening person to person between the Russian and Jordan at the airbase in Montana. From Jordan's own words, the laison begins the phone conversation speaking in Russian! He hands the phone to Jordan and tells him his (Jordan's) boss wants to speak to him. A man on the line identifies himself as Jordan's boss, Harry Hopkins. Jordan admits he had never spoken with Hopkins. He claims the man identifying himself as Hopkins instructs him to keep the shipment secret and not to record the cargo. He tells him that twice, making it clear that no record is to be made and Jordan should not discuss the shipment with anyone. Jordan makes no attempt to confirm with Hopkin's office that Hopkin's had in fact communicated with him. That is his story.
That is the original source for the nonsense that FDR shipped secret atomic bomb material and information to Stalin. What was more likely a theft of material orchestrated by the Russian's and facilatated by an American officier. His piss poor explaination of how the shipment got past him worked because the Un-American Affairs Committee was looking for something else besides simple corruption. The Russians simply outsmarting the Americans and achieving an intelligence coup did not fit with the whole government infiltrated with Soviet spies agenda.

"The problem for Jordan is that not one document or scrap of evidence was ever found that indicated approval of any sort for the loading of the material onto the transports. Jordan had a stunning excuse for this awkward occurance (sic)."



First of all, you haven't a clue as to what you are talking about, and, being in thrall to FDR, you don't want to know the truth.

Prepare for an education:


1. I challenge FDR apologists to explain government largesse to Soviet Russia, even superseding Allied, or even American military needs. Or American civilian needs: 217,660,666 pounds of butter shipped to the USSR during a time of strict state-side rationing.
John R. Deane, "The Strange Alliance: The Story of Our Efforts at Wartime Cooperation With Russia," p.94-95.

a. "The President has directed that 'airplanes be delivered in accordance with protocol schedules by the most expeditious means.' To implement these directives, the modification, equipment and movement of Russian planes have been given first priority, even over planes for US Army Air Forces."
From the diaries of Maj. George Racey Jordan, supervisory 'expediter' of Soviet Lend-Lease aid, p. 20.

b. At Congressional Hearing Regarding Shipments of Atomic Material to the Soviet Union During WWII, Washington GPO, 1950, p.909-910, Jordon would tell Congress that he kept this presidential directive on his person to show incredulous officers.






2. Harry Hopkins was FDR's live-in adviser at the White House....frequently referred to as 'the co-President.' And, as revealed in the Venona Papers, Hopkins was 'Source 19,' agent of Stalin.

a. The questions here should revolve around the roles of Hopkins, and of FDR in sending both the material, and the instructions for the Atomic Bomb to the Soviet Union.






3 .When Hopkins died, in 1946, he left behind numerous filing cabinets of material. His personal assistant, Sidney Hyman, took 8 months to "put the files in order." Thereafter, they were opened to Hopkins-biographer Robert Sherwood.

a. When Major Jordan testified that Hopkins had ordered him to expedite a shipment of uranium to Moscow,- off the books and on the Q.T,- Hyman insisted that Hopkins couldn't have done so because he didn't know what uranium was, didn't know about the Manhattan Project until after Hiroshima. Hyman: "He didn't know the difference between uranium and geranium."







Read the following carefully:

4. Well, who was telling the truth, Jordan, or Hyman? And, if Jordan was, what conclusion does that suggest about Hopkins, Hyman, and their links to Stalin?

5. In March of 1950, Jordan cited passages published in the Hyman-aided Sherwood biography of Hopkins explaining Hopkins's intimate awareness of and central involvement in setting up and monitoring the Manhattan Project. Get it? It was in Sherwood's book....authorized biography of Hopkins!


a. Vannevar Bush was head of the U.S. Office of Scientific Research and Development (OSRD) during World War II, through which almost all wartime military R&D was carried out, including initiation and early administration of the Manhattan Project. According to the Sherwood biography, Bush made Harry Hopkins the intermediary between himself and FDR. It was Hopkins who helped Bush draft the letter initiating the research project for Roosevelt's signature, on June 15, 1940.


b. Churchill conducted "his correspondence on the atomic project with Hopkins rather than with the President..."

c. Sherwood also notes "Hopkins never lost his interest in the fission of unranium."
a, b, and c:
Robert E. Sherwood, "The White House Papers of Harry L Hopkins Vol 1 Sept. 1939 - January 1942," 155-157; vol.2 701; 181







6. So....why the lies? Because the truth was noncontroversial until Jordan testified to Hopkins's involvement, in fact, large segments of the Roosevelt administration, in shipping atomic secrets and atomic materials to the Soviet Union as part of the plot code-named "Enormous."


a. " Soviet scientists evened the balance of terror thanks to an enormous shortcut delivered by espionage agents engaged in Operation ENORMOUS-the complete Soviet penetration of The Manhattan Project."
KGB Investigative Assets: Insights



7. And...when the espionage plot came under FBI surveillance, Hopkins warned the Soviets! [Hopkins] "had privately warned the Soviet embassy in Washington that the FBI had bugged secret meeting at which Zarubin (apparently identified by Hopkins only as a member of the embassy) had passed money to Steve Nelson, a leading member of the US Communist underground."
Andrew and Mitrokhin, "The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archive and the Secret History of the KGB," p.111.



8. Major Jordan's fate? The same fate a other lone voice, heroes unknown, such as Senator Joseph McCarthy: character assassination.





9. General Leslie Groves, chief of the Manhattan Project, would later testify before Congress in 1949 that his operation came under continuous pressure to release experimental atomic materials to the USSR from the Lend-Lease office.
From Hearings Regarding Shipments of Atomic Materials to Russia During WWII, HUAC, 81st Congress, December 7, 1949.




So.....exactly what Jordan had testified to!

And that identifies you as a dupe.

 

[Camp]

The way this thread sounds it's as if Britain and America had three choices not two during WWII. In the days of WWII we thought we had only two choices rid Europe of Germany or the USSR, and we chose Germany.
Today, some 70 years later it sounds like we had a third choice, rid Europe of both Germany and the USSR. Am I reading this revision correctly?

The premise is ridiculous, as most conspiricy theorys are, but it is entertaining. I'm finding it difficult to keep up with the distorted quotes and lame sources being posted. Maj. Jordan's testimony for McCarthy at the House Committee on Un-American Affairs and his later writings are the original source for the claim that FDR sent atomic bomb secrets to Stalin. Jordan could have been tried for treason. Jordan was the guy in charge of checking, inspecting and approving items and material sent to Russia for lend lease under his command stucture, which included the material in question relating to the so called atomic bomb materials. Investigations did in fact show that these items where shipped by rail to Montana to be loaded onto C-47's for transport to Alaska where they were turned over to Russian pilots for the remainder of the flight to Siberia (standard procedure). The problem for Jordan is that not one document or scrap of evidence was ever found that indicated approval of any sort for the loading of the material onto the transports. Jordan had a stunning excuse for this awkward occurance.
Jordan claimed this shipment was the first and only shipment he ever released without the proper paperwork. Why did he do this? He claimed in his testimony and later writings that the top Russian laison insisted this was a top secret shipment approved by the highest authorities in the US Gov. Jordan claims he remained steadfast and would not release the cargo for shipment. Now it gets really weird. According to Jordan himself, the Russian laison made a phone call. Keep in mind this is all happening person to person between the Russian and Jordan at the airbase in Montana. From Jordan's own words, the laison begins the phone conversation speaking in Russian! He hands the phone to Jordan and tells him his (Jordan's) boss wants to speak to him. A man on the line identifies himself as Jordan's boss, Harry Hopkins. Jordan admits he had never spoken with Hopkins. He claims the man identifying himself as Hopkins instructs him to keep the shipment secret and not to record the cargo. He tells him that twice, making it clear that no record is to be made and Jordan should not discuss the shipment with anyone. Jordan makes no attempt to confirm with Hopkin's office that Hopkin's had in fact communicated with him. That is his story.
That is the original source for the nonsense that FDR shipped secret atomic bomb material and information to Stalin. What was more likely a theft of material orchestrated by the Russian's and facilatated by an American officier. His piss poor explaination of how the shipment got past him worked because the Un-American Affairs Committee was looking for something else besides simple corruption. The Russians simply outsmarting the Americans and achieving an intelligence coup did not fit with the whole government infiltrated with Soviet spies agenda.

"The problem for Jordan is that not one document or scrap of evidence was ever found that indicated approval of any sort for the loading of the material onto the transports. Jordan had a stunning excuse for this awkward occurance (sic)."



First of all, you haven't a clue as to what you are talking about, and, being in thrall to FDR, you don't want to know the truth.


Jordan's story comes directly from himself in his own book, "Major Jordan's Diaries" by Major George Racey Jordan (RET.), Harcourt, Brace & Company, New York, 1952.

 

[PoliticalChic]

The premise is ridiculous, as most conspiricy theorys are, but it is entertaining. I'm finding it difficult to keep up with the distorted quotes and lame sources being posted. Maj. Jordan's testimony for McCarthy at the House Committee on Un-American Affairs and his later writings are the original source for the claim that FDR sent atomic bomb secrets to Stalin. Jordan could have been tried for treason. Jordan was the guy in charge of checking, inspecting and approving items and material sent to Russia for lend lease under his command stucture, which included the material in question relating to the so called atomic bomb materials. Investigations did in fact show that these items where shipped by rail to Montana to be loaded onto C-47's for transport to Alaska where they were turned over to Russian pilots for the remainder of the flight to Siberia (standard procedure). The problem for Jordan is that not one document or scrap of evidence was ever found that indicated approval of any sort for the loading of the material onto the transports. Jordan had a stunning excuse for this awkward occurance.
Jordan claimed this shipment was the first and only shipment he ever released without the proper paperwork. Why did he do this? He claimed in his testimony and later writings that the top Russian laison insisted this was a top secret shipment approved by the highest authorities in the US Gov. Jordan claims he remained steadfast and would not release the cargo for shipment. Now it gets really weird. According to Jordan himself, the Russian laison made a phone call. Keep in mind this is all happening person to person between the Russian and Jordan at the airbase in Montana. From Jordan's own words, the laison begins the phone conversation speaking in Russian! He hands the phone to Jordan and tells him his (Jordan's) boss wants to speak to him. A man on the line identifies himself as Jordan's boss, Harry Hopkins. Jordan admits he had never spoken with Hopkins. He claims the man identifying himself as Hopkins instructs him to keep the shipment secret and not to record the cargo. He tells him that twice, making it clear that no record is to be made and Jordan should not discuss the shipment with anyone. Jordan makes no attempt to confirm with Hopkin's office that Hopkin's had in fact communicated with him. That is his story.
That is the original source for the nonsense that FDR shipped secret atomic bomb material and information to Stalin. What was more likely a theft of material orchestrated by the Russian's and facilatated by an American officier. His piss poor explaination of how the shipment got past him worked because the Un-American Affairs Committee was looking for something else besides simple corruption. The Russians simply outsmarting the Americans and achieving an intelligence coup did not fit with the whole government infiltrated with Soviet spies agenda.

"The problem for Jordan is that not one document or scrap of evidence was ever found that indicated approval of any sort for the loading of the material onto the transports. Jordan had a stunning excuse for this awkward occurance (sic)."



First of all, you haven't a clue as to what you are talking about, and, being in thrall to FDR, you don't want to know the truth.


Jordan's story comes directly from himself in his own book, "Major Jordan's Diaries" by Major George Racey Jordan (RET.), Harcourt, Brace & Company, New York, 1952.

Proof?

For inveterate dupes....there can never be proof.



I notice you've ignored that Jordan proved Hopkins involvement and lies by way of Sherwood's authorized biography of Hopkins.

 

[Camp]

"The problem for Jordan is that not one document or scrap of evidence was ever found that indicated approval of any sort for the loading of the material onto the transports. Jordan had a stunning excuse for this awkward occurance (sic)."



First of all, you haven't a clue as to what you are talking about, and, being in thrall to FDR, you don't want to know the truth.


Jordan's story comes directly from himself in his own book, "Major Jordan's Diaries" by Major George Racey Jordan (RET.), Harcourt, Brace & Company, New York, 1952.

Proof?

For inveterate dupes....there can never be proof.



I notice you've ignored that Jordan proved Hopkins involvement and lies by way of Sherwood's authorized biography of Hopkins.

Proof? Jordan's book is the root source for many of the sources you list. Like almost all conspiracy theories original quotes get taken out of context, distorted and outright changed as the original quote or source gets transferred from one article and/or book to another. Jordan in large part supports your ideas, but in large part has been discredited as he changed his story. You can check his writing out yourself at whale.to/b/jordan.html

 

[PoliticalChic]

Proof?

For inveterate dupes....there can never be proof.



I notice you've ignored that Jordan proved Hopkins involvement and lies by way of Sherwood's authorized biography of Hopkins.

Proof? Jordan's book is the root source for many of the sources you list. Like almost all conspiracy theories original quotes get taken out of context, distorted and outright changed as the original quote or source gets transferred from one article and/or book to another. Jordan in large part supports your ideas, but in large part has been discredited as he changed his story. You can check his writing out yourself at whale.to/b.jordan/html

Still ignoring the Jordan revelations proven by the Sherwood book.

Pretty much proves what I said about you.

 

[Camp]

Proof? Jordan's book is the root source for many of the sources you list. Like almost all conspiracy theories original quotes get taken out of context, distorted and outright changed as the original quote or source gets transferred from one article and/or book to another. Jordan in large part supports your ideas, but in large part has been discredited as he changed his story. You can check his writing out yourself at whale.to/b.jordan/html

Still ignoring the Jordan revelations proven by the Sherwood book.

Pretty much proves what I said about you.

Well you didn't check out the Jordan source I gave you. The quote above has the wrong address. I edited the original post with the corrected address. Read it and you may comprehend why Jordan turned out to be such an unreliable source. Which one of Jordan's changing stories do you think we should believe? I know the answer, you want folks to believe the one that fits your agenda.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Still ignoring the Jordan revelations proven by the Sherwood book.

Pretty much proves what I said about you.

Well you didn't check out the Jordan source I gave you. The quote above has the wrong address. I edited the original post with the corrected address. Read it and you may comprehend why Jordan turned out to be such an unreliable source. Which one of Jordan's changing stories do you think we should believe? I know the answer, you want folks to believe the one that fits your agenda.

I read that before you provided same.
I've studied a number of sources.

The web includes FDR, Hopkins, as well as Jordan.

The total points clearly to Jordan as being correct.

 

[Camp]

Well you didn't check out the Jordan source I gave you. The quote above has the wrong address. I edited the original post with the corrected address. Read it and you may comprehend why Jordan turned out to be such an unreliable source. Which one of Jordan's changing stories do you think we should believe? I know the answer, you want folks to believe the one that fits your agenda.

I read that before you provided same.
I've studied a number of sources.

The web includes FDR, Hopkins, as well as Jordan.

The total points clearly to Jordan as being correct.

"The INFAMOUS COURTSHIP OF A POLITICIAN AND A REVOLUTIONIST-ROOSEVELT AND STALIN" by Robert Nisbet is a must read on this topic. He is as critical of Roosevelt as anyone, but he makes different conclusions as to why Roosevelt gave so much support to Stalin. Nisbet documents the foolishness of Roosevelt. He uses scholarly methods to track and trace sources. His work is not a conspiracy book. It is a work accepted by historians written by a scholar with impeccable credentials. Roosevelt is portrayed as an overconfident man who thought he could change and control Stalin, had little concern or care about what happened to Eastern Europe after the war and ignored the wisdom of Winston Churchill. He paints Roosevelt as a appeaser who attempted to influence Stalin with kindness, friendship and charm. Churchill went along with the program until 1943 when he determined Stalin was just an evil man who would never change. He failed to convince Roosevelt and Nisbet documents how Roosevelt's refusal and failure to see the light was the cause of a change and a wound in the Churhill and Roosevelt relationship that would never heal.
I happen to prefer the Nisbet ideas and conclusions over the McCarthy Soviet controlled the USA ideas. Nisbet was a scholar, McCarthy was fanatical, delusional nut job with a huge dose of unethical evilness about him.