Why are some people so afraid of God??

[Annie]

Originally posted by ajwps
Interesting that you should mention all 'Communists' hate religion. It seems that after the fall of Russian Communism, a great deal of the masses returned to their churches.

It was the leaders of Communism that tried to destroy faith and beliefs in religion. The State does not drive beliefs out of the people.

So all Communists are not atheists.

But they were supposed to be, thus they were never really communists.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by ajwps
It seems that after the fall of Russian Communism, a great deal of the masses returned to their churches.

Yes. Returned, implying they left, cuz the communists made them.

It was the leaders of Communism that tried to destroy faith and beliefs in religion. The State does not drive beliefs out of the people.

Well, they sure as hell try, and succeed in many cases.

So all Communists are not atheists. [/B]

But communism in it's pure forms prefers a very materialistic view, and considers religions a threat to it's powerbase, and traditional attitudes toward property rights an obstacle to their confiscate and redistribute tactics. Maybe that's what the other poster meant. Just a thought.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by ajwps
No you were mistaken. I said that Jewish people do not believe that anyone is 'going to heaven' nor 'hell'

OK... my bad.

The concept that humans are 'saved' to live in a human or similar earth like form in some mansions in the sky is something very foreign to Jewish thought. As it was to Jesus himself in his day.

Really? Is that why Jesus makes mention of a place called "Gehenna", in which the unrighteous are doomed to eternal punishment? And he mentions this not once, but 7 different times:
http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin...ds=yes&language=english&searchpage=0&x=15&y=6
Moreover, Jesus Himself talked about heaven in the way you say was foreign to Him:
John 14:2-3: "In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."

Judaism believes that the essence of the soul (whatever that is) which continues on but more like right here in this timeless plane or dimension. The difference is that the soul is either closer to something like the light eminating from the Creator or suffers by being not close to that light of He who created all things.

There is no favoritism or required belief in Him but only that the life on earth you are given is somehow or someway measured according to your actions and deeds while here.

This premise was foreign to Paul of Tarsus who says that as long as you believe in Jesus you are saved to live with him in his mansions in the sky.

Actually, Paul was very trained in the ways of Judaism, as he was a disciple of Gamileil. And the concept of salvation by faith is found in the Old Testament as well:
Deuteronomy 28:1: "And if you faithfully obey the voice of the LORD your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth."
Psalm 26 "For your steadfast love is before my eyes, and I walk in your faithfulness."
Psalm 119:30: "I have chosen the way of faithfulness; I set your rules before me."
Isaiah 26:2: "Open the gates, that the righteous nation that keeps faith may enter in."
Jeremiah 3:22: "Return, O faithless sons; I will heal your faithlessness."
Habakkuk 2:4: "Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith."

Beside the fact that what happens to whatever we exists as is totally in His control and there is no particular faith that can put anyone in the front of the line.

If this is the case, why belong to any particular faith?

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by gop_jeff

OK... my bad. Really? Is that why Jesus makes mention of a place called "Gehenna", in which the unrighteous are doomed to eternal punishment? And he mentions this not once, but 7 different times: http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin...ds=yes&language=english&searchpage=0&x=15&y=6 Moreover, Jesus Himself talked about heaven in the way you say was foreign to Him: John 14:2-3: "In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."

You are taking your definitions of Gehenna from non-Jewish sources.

However, for Jews, gehenna—while certainly a terribly unpleasant place—is not hell. The majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not tortured in a hell; but the Hebrew meaning of the world Gehenna is the pit or the grave. It is a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden [orignal Garden of Eden], and where all imperfections are purged.

In this sense, it is somewhat similar to the Roman Catholic purgatory. Gehennom (lit: the valley of Hinnom, in Jerusalem; i.e. the gravel) is the sinner's experience in the afterlife. In other words, it's the same "place" as gan eiden (lit: the garden of Eden; i.e. heaven) — it's the perspective of the individual that makes it one or the other.

In some descriptions of the afterlife, we find that beyond Gan Eden there is a little known realm called the otzar, the divine treasury of souls; this is also called the tzror ha-hayyim, the bundle of life. This otzar is a transcendent realm of human souls, in the highest spheres of creation. Before souls are born they are said to come from this treasury, and they return they at some point after death.

Souls are said to originate in a realm called the 'guf' (Avodah Zarah 5a, Nedarim 13b, Yevamot 62a), from which they descend to the earthly reality to animate human bodies. After death, these souls return to the otzar, or tzror ha-hayyim. (Shabbat 152a; Pesikta Rabbati 2:3)

According to the Kabbalah [Jewish mysticism] every human has at least one element in their soul; with the proper study a person can eventually develop two higher levels of the soul. A common way of explaining the three parts of the soul is as follows:

Nefesh - the lower part, or animal part, of the soul. Is linked to instincts and bodily cravings.

Ruach - the middle soul, the spirit. It contains the moral virtues and the ability to distinguish between good and evil.

Neshamah - the higher soul, or super-soul. This separates man from all other lifeforms. It is related to the intellect, and allows man to enjoy and benefit from the afterlife. This part of the soul is provided both to Jew and non-Jew alike at birth. It allows one to have some awareness of the existence and presence of G-d.

The "Raaya Meheimna," a later addition to the Zohar, posits that there are in fact two more parts of the human soul, the chayyah and yehidah. These parts were considered to represent the sublimest levels of intuitive cognition, and were only within the grasp of very few individuals.

Chayyah - The part of the soul that allows one to have an awareness of the divine life force itself.

Yehidad - the highest plane of the soul, in which one can achieve as full a union with G-d as is possible.

If you are quoting NT scriptures, you see a hell where all unbelievers in Christ burn in torment forever. Before Christ was put to pen by Paul and his Gospel book authors, he too understood this concept.

GopJEff: Is this is the case, why belong to any particular faith?

Because I believe in G-d and you choose to believe in Jesus the born human son of a 'Force' that cannot be described or have any attributes that mankind can describe.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by phadras
Communists hate all religions.. Ergo the aclu hates religion... Really very simple..

Just...like...you

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by ajwps
Simply put, it is a life long fight to control our impulses and baser desires as the desired route in this short veil of tears we call our existence on this planet. A G-d who says that shalt not do certain things comes with consequences for disobeying His commandments of Life.....

Again, this begs the question of how you, or anyone else for that matter, knows what any god wants. True words were set to parchment a few centuries ago...but simply because those words are regarded as divinely inspired does not mean that they are.

Like it or not, religious doctrine is the product of human cognition. Thus it is prone to the same limitations which human cognition is prone to. It carries within its pages the prejudices, ignorance, pre-conceptions, misconceptions and, yes, even wisdom of its writers. Their explanations of the world were based upon their incomplete knowledge of the world around them. Even today, our knowledge of the world, while more complete and expansive is far from complete.

Religious doctrine was, and still is, the means of providing moral laws with a moral "payoff" in some mythical afterlife. Follow these rules and you have a free pass to heaven, a boatload of virgins, milk and honey, yaddah...yaddah...yaddah. Fail to follow them results in being condemned to hell, purgatory, or some other unpleasant plane of existence.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Again, this begs the question of how you, or anyone else for that matter, knows what any god wants. True words were set to parchment a few centuries ago...but simply because those words are regarded as divinely inspired does not mean that they are.

Like it or not, religious doctrine is the product of human cognition. Thus it is prone to the same limitations which human cognition is prone to. It carries within its pages the prejudices, ignorance, pre-conceptions, misconceptions and, yes, even wisdom of its writers. Their explanations of the world were based upon their incomplete knowledge of the world around them. Even today, our knowledge of the world, while more complete and expansive is far from complete.

Disprove the Biblical prophecy.

We have done this before.

You can't.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit

Again, this begs the question of how you, or anyone else for that matter, knows what any god wants. True words were set to parchment a few centuries ago...but simply because those words are regarded as divinely inspired does not mean that they are.

What proof do you have to the opposite proposition that there is no god? Do you have a written parchment that says there is no god? Your reasoning turns out to be kind of circular.

Like it or not, religious doctrine is the product of human cognition. Thus it is prone to the same limitations which human cognition is prone to.

What is human cognition and why should it not be located in those same subatomic particles that make up the chair on which you sit instead of the cranium that sits over your eyes? What limitations do you cognate that human cognition is prone to?

It carries within its pages the prejudices, ignorance, pre-conceptions, misconceptions and, yes, even wisdom of its writers. Their explanations of the world were based upon their incomplete knowledge of the world around them. Even today, our knowledge of the world, while more complete and expansive is far from complete.

True. But those pages say that in the beginning there was a void (?) followed by the creation of everything.

In our incomplete knowledge, science now believes the exact same events occurred in what is commonly called the Big Bang.

What was there 1/100,000,000,000,000,000,000 of a second before this now accepted concept that all matter which was somehow condensed into the area the size of a pin head followed by a giant explosion of unimanginable proportions. Science says that any alteration in the following events, one degree centigrade or total particle destruction instead of some left over would have resulted in nothing and we would not be here.

These words were put to pen some 4,000 + years ago. How in the world did anyone of those times know of these seeming events generally accepted today as scientiifc discoveries and thinking indicates? Maybe, like you say, it was just a coincidence?

]Religious doctrine was, and still is, the means of providing moral laws with a moral "payoff" in some mythical afterlife. Follow these rules and you have a free pass to heaven, a boatload of virgins, milk and honey, yaddah...yaddah...yaddah. Fail to follow them results in being condemned to hell, purgatory, or some other unpleasant plane of existence.

Who knows for certain what is or is not, YOU? Give some proof of your premise?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Again, this begs the question of how you, or anyone else for that matter, knows what any god wants

Yes. "Who is anyone to judge anyone?": The battle cry of the moral relativists. Keep on fighting bully, but be aware, satan is speaking through you.

 

[deaddude]

"The battle cry of the moral relativists. Keep on fighting bully, but be aware, satan is speaking through you."

And Azazel, dont forget Azazel, or Baal, or Iblis, or Lucifer, or Beliel, or Moloch, or Asmodeus or Leviathan or Mammon, or Bellphon, or Beelzebub, jeez how many demons can you have and still consider your self a monotheism.

 

[Yurt]

Originally posted by deaddude
[BAnd Azazel, dont forget Azazel, or Baal, or Iblis, or Lucifer, or Beliel, or Moloch, or Asmodeus or Leviathan or Mammon, or Bellphon, or Beelzebub, jeez how many demons can you have and still consider your self a monotheism. [/B]

You can't be serious! Are your really saying that demons are part of "monotheism?" The whole point of monotheism is that there is only on "God." In spirit, body, and soul (that which to us is non-definable, as what is a soul, really?) I am sorry, but your argument begs the question.

What is the question? Well since it begs, the question is, what is your definition of monotheism?

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by NewGuy
Disprove the Biblical prophecy.

We have done this before.

You can't.

It's because there's nothing to prove. Your "proof" rests on FAITH which, by definition, requires no proof of anything. You simply accept it and go about your daily business. It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
Yes. "Who is anyone to judge anyone?": The battle cry of the moral relativists. Keep on fighting bully, but be aware, satan is speaking through you.

Well, since I neither believe in "God" or "Satan", that comment is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

As for "moral relativism", I don't believe I mentioned anything about it.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by ajwps
What proof do you have to the opposite proposition that there is no god? Do you have a written parchment that says there is no god? Your reasoning turns out to be kind of circular.



What is human cognition and why should it not be located in those same subatomic particles that make up the chair on which you sit instead of the cranium that sits over your eyes? What limitations do you cognate that human cognition is prone to?



True. But those pages say that in the beginning there was a void (?) followed by the creation of everything.

In our incomplete knowledge, science now believes the exact same events occurred in what is commonly called the Big Bang.

What was there 1/100,000,000,000,000,000,000 of a second before this now accepted concept that all matter which was somehow condensed into the area the size of a pin head followed by a giant explosion of unimanginable proportions. Science says that any alteration in the following events, one degree centigrade or total particle destruction instead of some left over would have resulted in nothing and we would not be here.

These words were put to pen some 4,000 + years ago. How in the world did anyone of those times know of these seeming events generally accepted today as scientiifc discoveries and thinking indicates? Maybe, like you say, it was just a coincidence?



Who knows for certain what is or is not, YOU? Give some proof of your premise?

One cannot prove the existence of something which is beyond any possibility of human experience and gods are beyond human experience. The best we can do is speculate about such things. Thus any disagreements about which is correct or not is nothing more than an elaborate exercise in mental masturbation. Of course, it helps if your speculations have hard evidence to support them, which science is revealing on a daily basis, none of which involves a god.

As for your other premise about "scientific " knowledge contained in the Bible, it sounds as if you've been reading Erich Von Daniken again.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit

It's because there's nothing to prove. Your "proof" rests on FAITH which, by definition, requires no proof of anything. You simply accept it and go about your daily business. It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong.

Sorry Bullypulpit but you are incorrect in your assessment that any proof rests on FAITH.

The proof comes 'in the pudding.' If a Biblical prophecy is made centuries ago stating that sometime in the future Babylon (Iraq)will be attacked by a 'north America country' and those nations (Coalition) arrayed against them will be taken (like in Iraq today) with arrows (smart bombs and missiles) that never return in vain (always find their mark) then you MAY have proof of a prophecy come to be today.

A Jeremiah had no knowledge of future technology like smart bombs and weapon systems so all he could do is describe his prophecy in terms that he was familiar with.

You can simply accept it and go about your daily business (bury your head in the sand) or you could be profoundly affected by the events unfolding in this state of war in which we are currently engaged today against those who would destroy mankind.

I am not saying that this eon old Jeremiah prophecy has proved itself, but it is certainly a conincidence.

Jeremiah 50:9

For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon (Iraq today) an assembly of great nations (Coalition forces) from the north (American) country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken (Iraq and Sadaam now taken): their arrows (smart missles and bombs) shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain.

There is no proof that this was a prophecy come to be.
But I must admit that it is a really big witten parallel "appears" to have occurred over a very long expanse of time.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
It's because there's nothing to prove. Your "proof" rests on FAITH which, by definition, requires no proof of anything.

Your own statement is illogical and ignorant.

1. There IS something to prove where one lacks faith. There is always a cause for someone to START to have faith.

2. My PROOF is Biblical and can be proven. Prophecy becomes history. When no man can see prophetic events such as the Bible, and the Bible claimes its self the Word of God, then by simple logical deduction: IT IS. THAT is not proof based on faith, but LOGICAL REASONABLE PROOF.

3. Faith DOES require proof of something. It requires proof of justification. If one is to have faith, there is always a reason that faith was created. Even a newborn baby has no faith in a mother until forced to feed for the first time.

You simply accept it and go about your daily business. It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong.

Correct.

When the Bible claims its self the unerrant Word of God and it is logically proven as illustrated above, I have no capacity, authority or ability to go against that.

I CAN however, continue to prove its nature of being what it claims.

It is funny. After all of your spewing about the Bible being untrustworthy and false, you miss the part about Christians being commanded to test all things to see if they are of God. That also means His entire textual BIBLE.

Therefore, you are even commanded by God to make sure the Bible IS divine and then follow it.

-Yet again, you cannot face the reality.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit

As for your other premise about "scientific " knowledge contained in the Bible, it sounds as if you've been reading Erich Von Daniken again.

I made a statement like that.

You have yet to disprove those points of scientific fact, which makes you a typical Kerry in response to a direct question.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Well, since I neither believe in "God" or "Satan", that comment is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

As for "moral relativism", I don't believe I mentioned anything about it.

Satan's biggest victory was convincing people god didn't exist.

Moral relativism? You're soaking in it.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Moral relativism? You're soaking in it.

How so? My morality is rooted in the real consequences of my actions to myself and others. There is nothing at all relative about that, it is rooted in this world and this life. Deontological ethicss are rooted in a moral "payoff" in some imagined afterlife. In other words, the consequences of one's actions in this world and this life are irrelevant.

 

[ajwps]

How so? My morality is rooted in the real consequences of my actions to myself and others. There is nothing at all relative about that, it is rooted in this world and this life. Deontological ethicss are rooted in a moral "payoff" in some imagined afterlife. In other words, the consequences of one's actions in this world and this life are irrelevant.

Your certainty of a meaningless life with your own morality is very comforting. So you feel that there is no ultimate justice for your own actions and deeds toward others. No payoffs or rewards are offered or guaranteed in your actions towards others in this lifetime of yours.

Science asks no questions about the ontological pedigree or a priori character of a theory, but is content to judge it by its performance; and it is thus that a knowledge of nature, having all the certainty which the senses are competent to inspire, has been attained—a knowledge which maintains a strict neutrality toward all philosophical systems and concerns itself not with the genesis or a priori grounds of ideas.

ATTRIBUTION: Chauncey Wright (1830–1875)