Where does the stimulus money go?

[Wry Catcher]

Obama's advisers predicted and Obama announced that his stimulus package would hold unemployment at or below 8 percent. It's becoming painfully obvious that they were wrong about the whole stimulus bill. If you look the purpose of the stimulus bill, it's suppose to create jobs. Some of those jobs should have been created in order to fix the infrastructure like unsafe bridges.

Rhode Island has scored at the top of the "Deficient Bridges List" with over 55%, as shown at the State by State map.

I don't know how much money Rhode Island is going to spend on fixing bridges, but they certainly have some other priorities for stimulus money. $550K in stimulus cash will help pay for skateboard park

So? What's wrong with a skateboard park? Providing recreation for kids is bad? Building the park provides jobs; jobs for people who pay taxes and spend money in restaurants, hardware stories and other small businesses. Giving money to mega- banks may have been foolish, but providing jobs to working people is not.

Skateboard park can be build in a month. When I was younger we would build it on a parking lot in a few days. Now tell me, how many permanent jobs will be created once this skateboard park is finished?

Prove it. A skateboard park built by a couple of kids in some rural area, sure. A skateboard park built in an urban environment, as a civic park, cannot. Of course that's only my opinion, and you post as if your an expert; so, prove it. Tell us where and provide some evidence.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Why should we think of that?
Why not think of all the real jobs that were destroyed when gov't had to tax and/or borrow to pay for this crap? Once the project is done, the job is over. It wont do anything. Had they allowed the market to allocate the resources instead they would have ended up with sustainable jobs that actually contributed to the economy in a permanent way.

Would you mind proving what you say? And, what is the crap to which you refer?
Once a bridge is repaired it won't do anything? That's the point, isn't it, for the bridge to not fall down. Ask the people in Minnesota which costs more, repairing a bridge or removing it's remains and building a new one.

Oy. The gov't has no money of its own. It must take it from elsewhere to give it to someone. Here they are taking it from someone else.
Infrastructure is not a free lunch. It does not have equal value. Some bridges, like the GW in NY, serve an economically useful function. Plenty of others dont. Some bridges and roads have only marginal economic value, and in fact would be better off falling down. They add nothing to the economy by their existence. Repairing/rebuilding them is like pouring money down a well. You might as well hire men to dig ditches and then hire other men to fill them in.

Really? Which bridge would you tear down? Which highways would you abandon? I wonder if the small businesses on Route 66 would agree with you?
Your 'reasoning' is quite interesting. Public hospitals and clinics in small rural counties around the nation are not economically feasable, are they? So what the hell, let all those country kids survive without their shots, and so what if they break a bone, it's not economically feasable to fix 'em.

 

[The Rabbi]

Would you mind proving what you say? And, what is the crap to which you refer?
Once a bridge is repaired it won't do anything? That's the point, isn't it, for the bridge to not fall down. Ask the people in Minnesota which costs more, repairing a bridge or removing it's remains and building a new one.

Oy. The gov't has no money of its own. It must take it from elsewhere to give it to someone. Here they are taking it from someone else.
Infrastructure is not a free lunch. It does not have equal value. Some bridges, like the GW in NY, serve an economically useful function. Plenty of others dont. Some bridges and roads have only marginal economic value, and in fact would be better off falling down. They add nothing to the economy by their existence. Repairing/rebuilding them is like pouring money down a well. You might as well hire men to dig ditches and then hire other men to fill them in.

Really? Which bridge would you tear down? Which highways would you abandon? I wonder if the small businesses on Route 66 would agree with you?
Your 'reasoning' is quite interesting. Public hospitals and clinics in small rural counties around the nation are not economically feasable, are they? So what the hell, let all those country kids survive without their shots, and so what if they break a bone, it's not economically feasable to fix 'em.

For someone who asks for proof of obvious statements you sure like to throw 'em out there.
WHich part of my reasoning do you not understand or not agree with? That some public projects provide lasting value and others do not? That gov't can only give money to one party by taking it from another? Or that gov't stimulus doesn't work, has never worked and will never work?
You are changing the subject because you are clearly out of your depth here.

 

[Ame®icano]

So? What's wrong with a skateboard park? Providing recreation for kids is bad? Building the park provides jobs; jobs for people who pay taxes and spend money in restaurants, hardware stories and other small businesses. Giving money to mega- banks may have been foolish, but providing jobs to working people is not.

Skateboard park can be build in a month. When I was younger we would build it on a parking lot in a few days. Now tell me, how many permanent jobs will be created once this skateboard park is finished?

Prove it. A skateboard park built by a couple of kids in some rural area, sure. A skateboard park built in an urban environment, as a civic park, cannot. Of course that's only my opinion, and you post as if your an expert; so, prove it. Tell us where and provide some evidence.

What's there to prove. THere are companies with ready to build modular designs. You order what you want, they come and install it.

Try this link - Suburban Rails.

In our contract we specify how many days it will take us to build your park. If we go over the set amount of days, we pay money back to you!

Now, my turn. You still owe me an answer to the question: how many permanent jobs will be created once this skateboard park is finished?

 

[The Rabbi]

Now, my turn. You still owe me an answer to the question: how many permanent jobs will be created once this skateboard park is finished?

Me! ME!
The correct answer is none. Maybe one for maintenance. No economic value is created. It is not like the Erie Canal in the 19th century, the railroads in the late 19th century or the highways in the 20th century. Those reduced transportation costs for goods, so made a permanent contribution to the economy.
A skate park does not. A bridge to nowhere does not. An airport to nowhere does not. You could as easily pay men to dig ditches and then otehr men to fill them in.
But people don't understand that.

 

[Ame®icano]

Check out this map. It will tell you exactly how many jobs are created in each state.

Recovery.gov

My state, Michigan spent $122 million to create 405 jobs. That's over $300K per job.

California spent over $1.1 billion of stimulus money to create 2240 jobs. Thats nearly $500K per job.

New York spent $775 million to create 655 jobs. That's $1.18 million per job.

Great, stimulus is working.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Maybe in your head a park - even one with grass only - can be built in a month, but not in the real world. Try an get the permits, EIR, public comment and the project approved by every commission, board and asssociation who might have some interest, all in one month.
You guys simply make stuff up to fit your ideology. And, btw, that ideology has no room for the value of parks beyond dollars and sense.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Check out this map. It will tell you exactly how many jobs are created in each state.

Recovery.gov

My state, Michigan spent $122 million to create 405 jobs. That's over $300K per job.

California spent over $1.1 billion of stimulus money to create 2240 jobs. Thats nearly $500K per job.

New York spent $775 million to create 655 jobs. That's $1.18 million per job.

Great, stimulus is working.

You believe that all the money spent on the projects went to salary (or that is what your post implies). I didn't review the link you posted, and if my assumption is incorrect let me know and I will take the time to review it. But, if my assumption is correct, you neglect to break down the the total amount of $ into aggregate expenses, such as bricks, mortor, designs, tools, equipment, transportation, sales tax, insurance, etc. etc.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Oy. The gov't has no money of its own. It must take it from elsewhere to give it to someone. Here they are taking it from someone else.
Infrastructure is not a free lunch. It does not have equal value. Some bridges, like the GW in NY, serve an economically useful function. Plenty of others dont. Some bridges and roads have only marginal economic value, and in fact would be better off falling down. They add nothing to the economy by their existence. Repairing/rebuilding them is like pouring money down a well. You might as well hire men to dig ditches and then hire other men to fill them in.

Really? Which bridge would you tear down? Which highways would you abandon? I wonder if the small businesses on Route 66 would agree with you?
Your 'reasoning' is quite interesting. Public hospitals and clinics in small rural counties around the nation are not economically feasable, are they? So what the hell, let all those country kids survive without their shots, and so what if they break a bone, it's not economically feasable to fix 'em.

For someone who asks for proof of obvious statements you sure like to throw 'em out there.
WHich part of my reasoning do you not understand or not agree with? That some public projects provide lasting value and others do not? That gov't can only give money to one party by taking it from another? Or that gov't stimulus doesn't work, has never worked and will never work?
You are changing the subject because you are clearly out of your depth here.

"obvious statements"? Sorry pal, the only thing obvious about your statements is your ideology. Oh, and the ad hominem attack. BTW, how do you value "lasting value"?

 

[Mike Mitrosky]

Instead of worrying about where this money goes.. did you ever wonder where it comes from? I think where it comes from is an even bigger problem.

 

[The Rabbi]

Really? Which bridge would you tear down? Which highways would you abandon? I wonder if the small businesses on Route 66 would agree with you?
Your 'reasoning' is quite interesting. Public hospitals and clinics in small rural counties around the nation are not economically feasable, are they? So what the hell, let all those country kids survive without their shots, and so what if they break a bone, it's not economically feasable to fix 'em.

For someone who asks for proof of obvious statements you sure like to throw 'em out there.
WHich part of my reasoning do you not understand or not agree with? That some public projects provide lasting value and others do not? That gov't can only give money to one party by taking it from another? Or that gov't stimulus doesn't work, has never worked and will never work?
You are changing the subject because you are clearly out of your depth here.

"obvious statements"? Sorry pal, the only thing obvious about your statements is your ideology. Oh, and the ad hominem attack. BTW, how do you value "lasting value"?

I covered that in another post. It is value that accrues by having the public facility. A bridge that makes passing goods from point A to point B take 1 hour instead of 1 day has lasting value, as it reduces the transaction cost of the good. A skate park has no lasting value. It is a money sink. A bridge to nowhere has no lasting value. An airport to nowhere has no lasting value. You could as easily pay men to dig ditches and pay other men to fill them in. That doesn't create value either.

 

[Ame®icano]

Check out this map. It will tell you exactly how many jobs are created in each state.

Recovery.gov

My state, Michigan spent $122 million to create 405 jobs. That's over $300K per job.

California spent over $1.1 billion of stimulus money to create 2240 jobs. Thats nearly $500K per job.

New York spent $775 million to create 655 jobs. That's $1.18 million per job.

Great, stimulus is working.

You believe that all the money spent on the projects went to salary (or that is what your post implies). I didn't review the link you posted, and if my assumption is incorrect let me know and I will take the time to review it. But, if my assumption is correct, you neglect to break down the the total amount of $ into aggregate expenses, such as bricks, mortor, designs, tools, equipment, transportation, sales tax, insurance, etc. etc.

No, I did NOT say that, even there are cases where exactly that happen.

Look, I don’t think they just give money to someone to start a new company, so he need all tools, offices, staff etc. They give money to the companies that already exist and hire new people to do the job, then they count jobs created.

I agree, to build a park you need a land, permits, oversight... In Rhode Island, I think they already had donated land and a plan to build a park for their kids, they just didn't raise enough money. They didn't just get the idea, hey, we have extra money from stimulus, lets build something, how about skateboard park...

And honestly, skateboard park is a good thing and a lot of fun, we got indoor one nearby. It's privately owned and maintained, it costs up to $5 per hour. But, do we need to waste money on pet projects NOW? That's the last thing we should do with the money we don't even have.

Btw, we're not talking about Olympic park, it's skateboard park. One month is pretty much enough time to build it.

 

[ba1614]

well here they repaved a road that needed it ten years ago, they are re constructing two old buildings at the college I go to and are building a few new buildings at another college near me. We also have a bridge project in the works. So think of all the construction jobs that created.

That is all a result of the stimulus? None of it was already budgeted from somewhere else?

 

[Ame®icano]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPNVyP4iSiE&NR=1]ABC's Jake Tapper on the Stimulus Funds [/ame]

 

[mascale]

Actually, one of the faults of the Ivy League's concept of a "stimulus" is that in fact it went to prop up bloated incomes in state and local governments.

So, for example, in Venice, CA--which is City of Los Angeles--there is also a newly opened skate park, and on the ocean side of the bike path. After any winter storms, then there will likely have to be another new skate park, and on the ocean side of the bike path--as well as the new bike path.

We do that, on the coast. The tradition goes back to the Northwest Indian concept of "potlatch," probably. This was some orgiastic feast, wherein the locals consumed or destroyed everything, and started all over again. Then they would run off and watch the salmon. . . . .,well.

So far, the skateboard parks are a metaphor for the "Stimulus" put in place to stem "The Great Recession." Mostly, institutional failure happened, and the concept, "Too Big To Fail," was put in place. Bail-outs were created, and many were repaid. What no one noticed is that public state and local governments, and schools, were also deemed: "Too Big To Fail."

That will become more clear next week. The federal government is already putting out that class sizes would have otherwise be currently horrific: Had the Ivy League's concept of a stimulus not have been put in place.

Elsewhere, it is being reported that poverty has returned to about one of six households in America.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/povmeas/web_tab1_2007_2008 NAS measures comp.xls

The stimulus was not created for these people at all, and various "journalist" based organizations have details on the differences between the official rate and the alternative rate.

And so there will be a smattering of additional "Stimulus," which is how the Ivy League In Charge will regard it.

These are an educated people! They have neither money, nor any clue about how to go about creating any--unless it is is plastic, somehow!

"Crow, James Crow: Shaken, Not Stirred!"
(Ivy League Kissinger, just coincidentally--in all respects, did also get a Nobel prize, you know, while the world watched the "aspirations of world peace," on the television screens: While the last helicopter was leaving Saigon! Nixon was saying, "Give Peace A Chance," or taking bets, or whatever!)

 

[Ame®icano]

White House's February 2009 projection of the number of jobs that would be created by the 2009 stimulus law (through the end of 2010) with the actual change in state payroll employment through September 2009.

 

[The Rabbi]

Well, in absolute terms they got the numbers mostly right. If it weren't for those pesky plus and minus signs I'd say it was "mission accomplished."

 

[Ame®icano]

Remember how they voted on stimulus overnight without reading it? Economy was falling and there was no time to waste, right? But they did have enough time to slip bonuses for executives in the last minute. Just look at the effective date below.

H. R. 1—403 American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009

‘‘SEC. 111. EXECUTIVE COMPENSATION AND CORPORATE GOVERNANCE.

‘‘(iii) The prohibition required under clause (i) shall not be construed to prohibit any bonus payment required to be paid pursuant to a written employment contract executed on or before February 11, 2009, as such valid employment contracts are determined by the Secretary or the designee of the Secretary.

American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009

Now they are complaining about CEO bonuses, even they approved it.

 

[Paulie]

My guess is that the government took a large portion of the unspent money and put in a bottom in the market by buying up cheap securities.

This bull market is most likely the product of our own tax dollars.

I have zero proof of this of course, but I wouldn't put it past the bastards. It's not really that hard to cook the books, especially when the ones auditing them are most likely bought and paid for just like the lawmakers who pass the bills.

They got the ball rolling at the very least. I'm not saying the entire run-up is unspent stimulus money. But it wouldn't take much to put in out of that massive amount of unspent money, to signal a bottom to the rest of the private sector money that was on the sidelines. They also may very well have been keeping some handy to protect from a a possible bear market rally correction.

Who the fuck in here still trusts the government enough not to at least consider such a possibility?

 

[Ame®icano]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxYIHl0Ozbg]YouTube - CBS: Administration's Trillion-Dollar 'Stimulus' Claims "Hard to Believe"[/ame]

Thanks to oreo for finding this...