Discussion in 'Israel and Palestine' started by ajwps, Jul 6, 2004.
Golda, I'll tell you what: abandoning jewish ethnocentricism (God gave this land to us) would help too.
And I assume the jews will determine when this has occured?
So what about the secular, democratic state of Isreal would you change to ensure peacefull co-existance with Arab Muslims.
Notice the 30% Islamic population in Isreal and living as citizens have no problems with their freedom to worship, demand equal voting rights, and otherwise stay safe and more prosperous than in any Arab state, period.
All of the rest of the Middle East under tyranny and the Islamic rule of law is supposed to stay that way, while Isreal dumps it's Liberal democratic government, you say?
What specifically did you have in mind?
As I said before (forum Racist Apartheid State) Israel is about as democratic as South Africa under apartheid.
Israel has a body of laws called Basic Laws through which legalised racism is embedded in its legal system.
1) The Law of Return:
The famous law of return basically states that every jew has the right to become an Israeli citizen and jews have the right to have accelarated citizenship through this law. The racist nature of this law is evident since it applies to jews only.
2) Israels Citizenship Law
This law regulates citizenship for non-jews.
Israeli legislators had to be clever enough to find a way to prevent the victims of the ethnic cleansing of 48 from ever returning to Israel using the Citizenship Law. They achieved their racist goal establishing that a person born in Israel can become a citizen if he/she applies for it between the age of 18 and 25 and RESIDE IN ISRAEL FOR 5 CONSECUTIVE YEARS.
Now someone explain to me please...how can a palestinian war refugee born in Israel reside in Israel for 5 consecutive years if he spent most of his life in a Bantustan called Gaza and was never allowed to reside in Israel not even for a week?
3) Israel Lands
According to this law the land of Israel belongs to the jewish people not to individuals.
This racist law prevents palestinian war refugees and even those who still live in Israel from buying the very same land they lived in until 48. This land was confiscated by the israeli government through another racist law called Absentee Law: it allows the israeli government to confiscate the land of any people who left his home, even if they left for a few days waiting for the hostilities to end during the 1948 conflict. Needless to say the only people affected by this law were arabs. These lands were invariably given to jews.
These three laws form the backbone of the israeli apartheid state. Working together they enforce israeli apartheid, preventing palestinian war refugees and their children from returning to their places of origin. They also clearly show that Israel,far from being a shining example of democracy in the Middle East, is, in fact, A JEWISH RACIAL DICTATORSHIP. I agree with you when you say that politics in the Middle East looks like a nightmare (dynastic monarchies, theocracies, military dictatorships). I just disagree when you say Israel is democratic. ISRAEL IS PART OF THIS NIGHTMARE, not the exception.
Lets be reasonable Comrade...when you are expelled and not allowed to return to your place of origin, cant become a citizen of the country where you were born, cant freely buy, sell or lease any kind of land property...when all these things happen just because you are an arab...how can any resonable person call this anything but racism? And when these things are all state sponsored how can anyone called this state anything but a racial dictatorship?
Even though you wont find a single arab participating in government at the federal level as a cabinet minister, people who support Israel like to point to token members of minorities who get elected:
The mayor of Jerusalem is an arab etc etc
These facts are totally irrelevant. Israel can elect an arab prime minister for all I care. As long as the Knesset continues to uphold those three racist laws cited above, Israel will still be a racial dictatorship no matter whos in charge.
Comrade, This is an excerpt of the UN resolution 181 (creation of Israel):
You know what Comrade??... States based on race always reminds me of Marxism. The only place it really worked was on Marxs mind.
Ethnic supremacist states also work well... on paper.
All members of the unofficial ethnicity will have their human, civil, religious rights totally respected blah blah blah blah
On the ground, you have Ben Gurion using a war as a pretext to expel them all.
But... ask yourself... why should it be different? States based on race are supposed to be racist. Being racist is part of their own definition as a state. The decision to split Palestine into two racist states was one of the first and biggest mistakes of the UN.
We also have UN Resolution 194 (I know its a non-binding one, but we all know who opposed it), saying:
Comrade this is my suggestion to the Knesset and the Israeli government, if they really want Israel to become a democracy:
1. Revoke the three racist laws cited above and FINALLY write a constitution giving full civil rights to all citizens regardless of ethnicity and safeguarding the rights of minorities.
2. TURN THE ZIONIST ARMY OF ISRAEL AND OTHER SECURITY FORCES INTO AN ARMY AND POLICE FORCE CAPABLE OF PROTECTING BOTH COMMUNITIES. PUT THEM UNDER INTERNATIONAL SUPERVISION, INDEPENDENT OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH. THIS IS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT.
3. Start dismantling and incorporating into Israel the two arab Bantustans known as West Bank and Gaza Strip and allow all palestinian war refugees and their descendants to return. Yes, the same people UN resolution 181 said you should never have expelled in the first place.
4. Hold elections based on universal suffrage.
5. Let the winners (a jewish and and arab prime minister) take office.
THEN AND ONLY THEN, Israel will no longer be a jewish racial dictatorship and will have become a real democracy.
Every time I ask why Isreali Liberal, secular Democracy is at fault in the conflict it's always specifically about the rights of Palestinians. I don't think you understand my question, what particularly is specifically racist or oppressive about the Isreali government with respect to it's citizens. There are many Muslims, Jews, and Christians, Whites and Arabs, Russians and Africans, and they live peacefully together until a Palestinian Muslim bombs them.
Why don't you consider Arab society as a contributing factor to the conflict? If you have one excuse it's that you don't know anything about the nature of Palestinian government, nor every similar Islamic and totalitarian government supporting it to defeat the rule of law in the Isreali state.
But you know about the PLO charter, don't you? You also know after 30 years and 7 US Presidents and 9 Isreali Prime Minister there is still ONE Arafat.
I guess you didn't know any of this?
I did understood your question, Comrade but you want to ignore the fact that these individuals and their children who were expelled in 48, 67 have every right to be israeli citizens and the fact that citizenship is denied to them makes it impossible to consider Israel a democratic society.
International law and common morality tell us that these refugees have the right to return and as long as they are prevented from doing so by the racist laws of the state of Israel, it cant be considered a democracy, only a dictatorship imposed by the jewish rulers of Israel, or, in other words, a jewish racial dictatorship. You just cant ignore this fact when labelling Israel a democracy.
Tell me, Comrade, would you consider the US a democratic country if it expelled all the black population who was then obliged to live in slums at the border between Mexico and the US? I don't think so, but, for some strange reason, you seem to be willing to give a pass to Israel that did exactly that in 1948.
Sure, and these arabs are not the ones who are Israeli citizens, they are those to whom the jewish racial dictatorship of Israel deny citizenship and civil rights.
Ive already agreed with you about the dictatorial nature of all arab countries. But as Ive already pointed out, israeli Basic Laws are racist and discriminatory and form the backbone of the israeli apartheid state so Israel cant be considered a democratic country, only a jewish racial dictatorship, just like South Africa under apartheid was a boer racial dictatorship.
Isreal is based on race yet over 30% living freely in reality, not just on paper, not Jewish. The rights of women are in excess of even the United States. Gay parades in Jerusalem. Peacefull worship at any Mosque in Isreali proper. Isreal works, just like America works. Arab regimes are pathetically inept as adapting to Liberal standards and you just can't ignore them as the root problem. It's intentional deception.
All because the Palestinians ruled by Arafat and supported by tyrants around the middle east aren't welcomed as Isreali citizens. Boo-Fucking-Hoo.
And Isreal establishes this as law and like I pointed out is faithfull to it's citizens in protecting their rights. First you think this is not in fact a reality. Second you make this the key reason why all Islamic and Fascist states oppose Israeli society. Why assume they want to protect Arab freedoms when Isreal is still the only state to deliver on religious freedom and equal respresentation. No Arab state is even accountable to it's people, let alone free
No, the decision to attack Jewish settlements enmasse was only natural in the Jew hating society of Islam. Arab muslims in Isreal have all the security Americans enjoy themselves. Jew in any the mostly 99%+ Islamic areas around them get murdered. We all know this is true, and that the only true racist policy is against Jews. And you just bought into it for god know why.
So either the right of return is a massive social welfare program to provide homes for what is now 6 times to original population of refuges that left during the Arab war on Jews. And we all know such a sudden shift in voting rights would doom Jews to subjugation over what every Palestinian supports today, a 100% Islamic state. Nothing practical about it.
Stop calling these racist laws. It's not Isreal who forgot to write in civil rights. Look at the PLO charter, or the "constitution" or simple reality of life in any of Islamic states around them. You won't get anywhere beating on Isreal for the rights and freedoms it grants.
It's not their job to protect Palistinians. It's also bizzare to think their soldiers would be accepted by them. It's also Isreal's national right to defend themselves and not be forced to protect their attackers. The UN has no business subjugating Isreal while they consistently seek to weaken Isreal. Get over the UN, it's no authority and no moral compass.
Many left their homes in advance of the combined Arab attack to defeat Isreal. Most who once lived in Isreal are dead. All the following generations should have made their own lives and gotten over their ancestors "grand estates", as if there was any wealth once there not created by Isreal itself after they left.
What is not hard to understand about this demand is the desire for a piece of that prosperity, from people who had nothing to do with it. Don't pretend Isreal got rich while it's neighbors remained poor for any other reason but it's Liberal Western society.
Isreali's have no reason to dole out property and assets to those who have no part in their success.
And thus destroy the free society in Isreal via the votes of 6 million Islamic Jew haters. Sorry!
Palestians in Gaza and the West bank have had time enough to form this kind of society without returning to Isreal. Nobody expects them as a majority to vote in a single state law as anything but Islamic and autocratics.
All the focus on Isreal as an oppressive state is what I call projection. It's denial of the true picture of Arab states and projection of those problem onto Isreal. It's really quite silly, isn't it?
How about giving the West Bank and Gaza back to the people who lived there before being expelled and then see what happens? As long as Israel refuses, the outcasts will be angry. When they express thier anger in violence, Israel responds with violence and claims they must continue the violence to "defend" themselves. Jews seem to be experts at encouraging people to dislike them and then cry anti-semitism to gain world attention and pity. Israel has nukes to defend itself and refuses to allow the world to inspect them. Sound familiar ??
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