What is it about Socialism that makes you want it here in the United States?

Discussion in 'US Constitution' started by andaronjim, Jul 18, 2019.

?

What is it about Socialism that makes you want it here in the United States?

  1. Free healthcare.

    6 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. Free college.

    4 vote(s)
    22.2%
  3. Free housing.

    2 vote(s)
    11.1%
  4. Dont have to work and still get paid.

    3 vote(s)
    16.7%
  5. Can smoke dope and still get paid.

    2 vote(s)
    11.1%
  6. Have the government to take care of me from cradle to grave.

    3 vote(s)
    16.7%
  7. Socialism has never worked and never will work, it is failure of misery and poverty.

    12 vote(s)
    66.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Andylusion
    Offline

    Andylusion Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,335
    Thanks Received:
    2,104
    Trophy Points:
    290
    Location:
    Central Ohio
    Ratings:
    +8,273
    Ah ok. Now I can respond to your post.



    Yes, people wait for socialism. Whether that socialism is in New York, or in Venezuela, socialism sucks. It never works. You want to know how many times I have had to wait in a long line for Capitalist food? Never. It's never happened. I go to the store, and there are 15 isles with more food than I could possibly eat before it rots.



    Are you suggesting that violent kids, should be allowed to abuse the public? When I was a teenager, if I attacked a police officer, I would expect to get beaten, and rightly so. And by the way, if I did that, after getting beaten and returned to my parents, my father would give me a beating too.

    That's what it means to live in a civilized society. You punish those that are acting uncivilized. That's how you get people to act civilized in society.

    Maybe if more police were stopping criminal youths in Venezuela, they wouldn't be the 2nd highest murder rate in the world.
    The Most Dangerous Cities in the World

    "I spend 8 hours on USMB each day to tell you how bad socialism is. In socialism I would not have all that bags and this laptop!"
    The irony of that statement, is that it is true. Even the worst off people in our country, live better than most of the people in Venezuela.


    "The first thing I think of when I wake up is how bad socialism is."
    While I highly doubt anyone wakes up thinking how bad socialism is, it is still true that they would all be far worse off under socialism.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  2. Bleipriester
    Offline

    Bleipriester Freedom!

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2012
    Messages:
    24,340
    Thanks Received:
    1,512
    Trophy Points:
    275
    Location:
    Wake Island
    Ratings:
    +6,699
    Not all have enough money to buy capitalist food. Venezuela is a good example for this. The Supermarket Chains:

    Government:
    Abasto Bicentenario
    Mercal (Charity Supermarket)

    Private:
    Automercados Plaza's
    Central Madeirense
    Líder
    Makro
    Mikro
    San Diego
    De Candido
    Unicasa
    Excelsior Gama

    Do you see that the term Socialism doesn´t apply? Venezuela doesn´t run a Cuba or North Korea style Socialism.


    There is simply nothing that hints to what you claim. Maybe one of the Kids stole a chewing gum or something.



    A big problem indeed. But that´s not socialism, unless Detroit and co are Socialist. It is about people outa control, an American phenomena that doesn´t exist to this extent in most other parts of the world.


    See here:
    Venezuela marks 2,7 millionth flat built in gov´s social housing program
    About food delivery in Venezuela
     
  3. Tehon
    Offline

    Tehon Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2015
    Messages:
    8,938
    Thanks Received:
    1,230
    Trophy Points:
    275
    Ratings:
    +4,589
    Market socialism is a socialist model that is not defined by government control of capital.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  4. dblack
    Offline

    dblack Platinum Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2011
    Messages:
    32,238
    Thanks Received:
    2,892
    Trophy Points:
    1,130
    Ratings:
    +9,493
    Bullshit. You're going to quibble about 'control' vs 'regulate', but it's the same thing.
     
  5. Tehon
    Offline

    Tehon Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2015
    Messages:
    8,938
    Thanks Received:
    1,230
    Trophy Points:
    275
    Ratings:
    +4,589
    Did you even bother to look up what it is?
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  6. Andylusion
    Offline

    Andylusion Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,335
    Thanks Received:
    2,104
    Trophy Points:
    290
    Location:
    Central Ohio
    Ratings:
    +8,273
    Do you see that the term Socialism doesn´t apply? Venezuela doesn´t run a Cuba or North Korea style Socialism.

    Amid Shortages, Venezuela Forces All Food Distribution into State Hands

    What began as rumors of state meddling in the food-distribution market in Venezuela were finally confirmed on Monday. The Nicolás Maduro government is compelling the country’s food producers to send up to 100 percent of their output to state-owned distribution centers and stores, in an attempt to solve the nation’s shortage problems.
    The shortages of food at private stores, is identical to the government run stores, because the government is imposing it's rule on both. It is socialism. Direct ownership is not required to impose socialism, as long as you have control. If I dictate to you, every aspect of your life.... I may not own you on paper, but I certainly control you.

    There is simply nothing that hints to what you claim. Maybe one of the Kids stole a chewing gum or something.

    There was a general claim about violence against children. If you are saying this is an isolated incident... then that isn't a systemic problem across the country. Whereas the violence in Socialist Venezuela, most certainly is. You can directly trace the rise and violence, to the policies that Chavez implemented.

    If you are saying there is a general problem of police being violent against children, the only cases I know about, the children instigated the violence.

    Nothing in that video shows what led up to that point. I don't see anything wrong with what the officer was doing. Innocent until proven guilty, is for all citizens, including citizens that become police officers. You don't magically lose your constitutional rights when you get a badge. When you can provide clear undeniable proof that officer just randomly starting beating a kid without reason or cause, then show it. Even then, this isn't a national problem. You have 3 videos out of 300+ million people.

    Meanwhile, over 2 million people have fled Venezuela. I don't see even a thousand people "fleeing" the US to get to Venezuela, but they are coming here. So clearly the problem is there, not here.

    A big problem indeed. But that´s not socialism, unless Detroit and co are Socialist. It is about people outa control, an American phenomena that doesn´t exist to this extent in most other parts of the world.

    Well yes. Socialism and Capitalism are not like light-switches. It's not one or the other system. Some places have more socialism than others. In fact, even in the Soviet Union, it wasn't 100% socialism. Fun fact: only about 90% of all farms in the USSR were government owned. 10% were still privately run, and ironically 33% of all food produced in the USSR, came from those private farms. (Thomas Sowell - Basic Economics)

    So yes, in many ways I would suggest that Detroit was highly socialized. From their pro-union policies, to their heavy regulation, to their pro-minority and entitlement policies.

    Regardless.... you do actually have a point. I did not suggest to you that all violence is inherently due to just socialism. Do you see the difference?

    All socialism tends towards violence.

    That statement does not imply that all violence is due to socialism.

    If you do not enforce the law, under any system, you will have violence. Lack of law enforcement, results in violence.

    But socialism inherently results in violence.

    About food delivery in Venezuela

    For poor Venezuelans, a box of food may sway vote for Maduro - Reuters


    The government sources almost all the CLAP goods from abroad, especially from Mexico, since Venezuela’s food production has shriveled and currency controls restrict private imports.

    Critics, including Maduro’s main challenger for the May 20 vote, Henri Falcon, say the CLAPs are a cynical form of political patronage and are rife with corruption.

    Erratic supply and control of distribution by government-affiliated groups have sown resentment among others.

    “I can’t count on it. Sometimes it comes, sometimes not,” said Viviana Colmenares, 24, an unemployed mother of six struggling to get by in Petare.

    The administration of the CLAP - the Local Supply and Production Committees - does not hide its political motivation.

    “It has helped us stop a social explosion and enabled us to win elections and to keep winning them,” he told Reuters, referring to government victories in 2017 local polls.​

    So let's review. This is a direct attempt to buy votes from the public, which is working. They can't even source the food from Venezuela, which prior to the socialist revolution, was a net-exporter of food. Not only this, but this makes people even more dependent on Maduro, which is his whole goal. He wants to keep people under his control with food, which is why he maintains the policies that has destroyed the food production in the country.

    To top it off, the program is funneled through politically connected groups, and rife with corruption.

    You know what this is? It's a real life version of the hunger games, except people are dumb enough to support it.

    Venezuela marks 2,7 millionth flat built in gov´s social housing program

    In Venezuela’s housing projects, even loyalists have had enough

    The Villa Poligono housing project, near the city of San Félix, in Venezuela’s south-eastern Bolívar state, is somewhere President Maduro might once have felt his popularity was secure.

    But for the past few weeks few of its residents have been at home. Instead they can be found on the road outside, mounting a noisy protest. “We’ve had enough’, says Anna Karena, 44. “This has to end.”

    She has multiple grievances. Shockingly, none of the breezeblock homes in the entire complex has ever had running water. When the residents were given their keys in 2014, they were told that the plumbing would soon be connected. It never was. More recently, electricity blackouts, lasting four hours at a time, have become routine, as a combination of drought and inefficiency has left the nation without enough generating capacity.

    But what seems to have persuaded her and her neighbours to protest openly is the extreme scarcity of basics, such as rice, soap and medicines. Unable to afford the exorbitant prices of the rampant black market, Karena has to queue for hours, sometimes from before dawn, just to buy enough to eat.

    Hers are the same allegations of government incompetence and corruption that are echoing across this nation. A crash in the global price of oil, by far Venezuela’s most significant export, has unmasked both its dysfunctional economy and a calamitous lack of foresight on the part of its leaders. It is grappling with the world’s deepest recession, the world’s highest inflation (estimated at around 500%), and the world’s second highest murder rate. It has no sovereign wealth fund and is facing the serious risk of default by November.

    “They have been telling us for years it’s about to get better,” says Karena, pointing to a field that the residents use as a public latrine. “You want to know what happened to the money that they should have set aside for electricity and water?” says her neighbour, Yanileth. “They stole it.”
    2.7 Million flats, and they are all garbage. No running water, no ventilation, and many buildings do not even have electricity. I was blown away by some pictures posted by Maduro supporters, trying to show off how great the apartment buildings were, not one had any lights on. Turns out, they didn't have power, and thus they couldn't turn on the lights.

    Nicolás Maduro's plan for Venezuela adds bewilderment to despair

    The UN estimates that 2.3 million Venezuelans have fled since 2015 with Colombian authorities predicting 2 million more could follow by 2020. That would mean some 4.3 million people – 14% of Venezuela’s population – had taken flight.​

    Over 2 million people have fled the country, and more leaving every day.

    If that food, and those houses were so great, why are literally millions of people leaving? Do you see millions of people leaving the Capitalist based US, to get to Venezuela? No you do not. But they have free food and housing!

    Socialism sucks.

    I'm honestly a little baffled by some of the housing projects in Venezuela. They build some of those million units, in areas that have no jobs. So what exactly is the long term plan? They stay in their apartments and die?
    Whatever.
     
  7. Bleipriester
    Offline

    Bleipriester Freedom!

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2012
    Messages:
    24,340
    Thanks Received:
    1,512
    Trophy Points:
    275
    Location:
    Wake Island
    Ratings:
    +6,699
    Wow, your propaganda sources are really comprehensive. I guess this is why your days are all about Socialism. Truth is different though.

    Paris priciest city, Caracas cheapest
     
  8. Andylusion
    Offline

    Andylusion Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,335
    Thanks Received:
    2,104
    Trophy Points:
    290
    Location:
    Central Ohio
    Ratings:
    +8,273
    Yeah, it's just socialism.

    Look... there is no "you control it, but I control it, but you do."

    Either the government controls something, or the government does not control something. This idea that you can have a non-government control, government control, is just the left-wing playing word games.

    When you say "market socialism", if the outcome of "market socialism" is different from what the outcome would have been under just the "market"... then it isn't market. It's just socialism.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. Tehon
    Offline

    Tehon Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2015
    Messages:
    8,938
    Thanks Received:
    1,230
    Trophy Points:
    275
    Ratings:
    +4,589
    The outcome would be the same.
     
  10. Tehon
    Offline

    Tehon Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2015
    Messages:
    8,938
    Thanks Received:
    1,230
    Trophy Points:
    275
    Ratings:
    +4,589
    Socialism, like capitalism, describe systems of production. In the most basic terms, they describe how labor is organized to produce commodities. It is entirely possible to organize labor using socialist principles and still exchange the commodities in the market. It is already being done.
     

Share This Page