What is evidence?

[hobelim]

Which btw was confirmed in a very specific verifiable and open way in full view of them all whatever they may have believed or not..What they once dismissed as an irrational hallucination from an overactive imagination or a symptom of a mental illness, a scientific impossibility, is now a historical fact. Now its impossible for them, even an atheist, to not believe what they have seen and heard with their own eyes and ears.

Can you take this one step farther? The evidence some are seeking is that what happened to you can be replicated by others. This means writing out a step-by-step procedure for others to follow that would end with the same (or at least similar) results every time.

Yes, there is a step by step procedure already in existence that anyone can follow to achieve a similar result.

Conform to the divine commands according to the revelation of Jesus encapsulated in the command to eat his flesh.

If you purify and refine your own mind, step by step, prejudice by prejudice, belief by belief, expression by expression, resentment by resentment, cliche by cliche, thought by thought, word by word, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, you will see God or rather, God will make himself known to you. God will not descend into hell where he is not, you must bodily ascend into heaven where he is.

There is no other way.

I always find it amusing that so many people respond with horror and disbelief at the suggestion that their inability to perceive God has nothing to do with me but everything to do with the defiled and contaminated state of their own mind. Its as if its terrifying or unbelievable that a flaw that needs to be confronted exists within themselves.

No one can prove the existence of God for someone else. The best anyone can do for them is to show them the way to make contact.

They have to actually do it. Just like any scientist worthy of a lab coat has to actually conduct an experiment and follow procedure - to a T - to test a theory and discover the truth.

Thats why Jesus made it clear after a healing and someones eyes were opened that it was that persons own faith that made them whole.

 

[Meriweather]

Yes, there is a step by step procedure already in existence that anyone can follow to achieve a similar result.

Conform to the divine commands according to the revelation of Jesus encapsulated in the command to eat his flesh.

If you purify and refine your own mind, step by step, prejudice by prejudice, belief by belief, expression by expression, cliche by cliche, word by word, thought by thought, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, you will see God or rather, God will make himself known to you. God will not descend into hell where he is not, you must bodily ascend into heaven where he is.

There is no other way.

I always find it amusing that so many people respond with horror and disbelief at the suggestion that their inability to perceive God has nothing to do with me but everything to do with the defiled and contaminated state of their own mind. Its as if its terrifying or unbelievable that a flaw that needs to be confronted exists within themselves.

No one can prove the existence of God for someone else. The best anyone can do for them is to show them the way to make contact.

They have to actually do it. Just like any scientist worthy of a lab coat has to actually conduct an experiment and follow procedure - to a T - to test a theory and discover the truth.

Thats why Jesus made it clear after a healing and someones eyes were opened that it was that persons own faith that made them whole.

My point exactly. We should be up front with those demanding "evidence". There is NO evidence of the type they are wishing for--and it is a wish. This is a journey to God--and mostly between God and the individual. A third element is needed--or at the minimum extremely helpful--and that is community.

The choice: Take the journey--or not. Looking for "evidence" is like saying that if one is meant to take a journey, then someone should show up and fly them to Paris. Not going to happen. Like any journey, a person is (largely) on their own.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Yes, there is a step by step procedure already in existence that anyone can follow to achieve a similar result.

Conform to the divine commands according to the revelation of Jesus encapsulated in the command to eat his flesh.

If you purify and refine your own mind, step by step, prejudice by prejudice, belief by belief, expression by expression, cliche by cliche, word by word, thought by thought, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, you will see God or rather, God will make himself known to you. God will not descend into hell where he is not, you must bodily ascend into heaven where he is.

There is no other way.

I always find it amusing that so many people respond with horror and disbelief at the suggestion that their inability to perceive God has nothing to do with me but everything to do with the defiled and contaminated state of their own mind. Its as if its terrifying or unbelievable that a flaw that needs to be confronted exists within themselves.

No one can prove the existence of God for someone else. The best anyone can do for them is to show them the way to make contact.

They have to actually do it. Just like any scientist worthy of a lab coat has to actually conduct an experiment and follow procedure - to a T - to test a theory and discover the truth.

Thats why Jesus made it clear after a healing and someones eyes were opened that it was that persons own faith that made them whole.

My point exactly. We should be up front with those demanding "evidence". There is NO evidence of the type they are wishing for--and it is a wish. This is a journey to God--and mostly between God and the individual. A third element is needed--or at the minimum extremely helpful--and that is community.

The choice: Take the journey--or not. Looking for "evidence" is like saying that if one is meant to take a journey, then someone should show up and fly them to Paris. Not going to happen. Like any journey, a person is (largely) on their own.

Once cannot ‘journey’ to something that does not exist as perceived by theists.

And to perceive ‘god’ as something other than an omnipotent deity is a matter of philosophy and the exploration of the human condition, not a matter of religion, faith, or belief.

Indeed, the raison d'être of religion is to defy evidence, to ignore the fact that religion and ‘god’ are creations of man, and to blindly adhere to one’s religious doctrine and dogma with a complete disregard for evidence, facts, and the truth.

 

[hobelim]

Yes, there is a step by step procedure already in existence that anyone can follow to achieve a similar result.

Conform to the divine commands according to the revelation of Jesus encapsulated in the command to eat his flesh.

If you purify and refine your own mind, step by step, prejudice by prejudice, belief by belief, expression by expression, cliche by cliche, word by word, thought by thought, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, you will see God or rather, God will make himself known to you. God will not descend into hell where he is not, you must bodily ascend into heaven where he is.

There is no other way.

I always find it amusing that so many people respond with horror and disbelief at the suggestion that their inability to perceive God has nothing to do with me but everything to do with the defiled and contaminated state of their own mind. Its as if its terrifying or unbelievable that a flaw that needs to be confronted exists within themselves.

No one can prove the existence of God for someone else. The best anyone can do for them is to show them the way to make contact.

They have to actually do it. Just like any scientist worthy of a lab coat has to actually conduct an experiment and follow procedure - to a T - to test a theory and discover the truth.

Thats why Jesus made it clear after a healing and someones eyes were opened that it was that persons own faith that made them whole.

My point exactly. We should be up front with those demanding "evidence". There is NO evidence of the type they are wishing for--and it is a wish. This is a journey to God--and mostly between God and the individual. A third element is needed--or at the minimum extremely helpful--and that is community.

The choice: Take the journey--or not. Looking for "evidence" is like saying that if one is meant to take a journey, then someone should show up and fly them to Paris. Not going to happen. Like any journey, a person is (largely) on their own.

I am not saying that there is no evidence by which a person can obtain irrefutable proof for the existence of God. What better proof could there be aside from God himself? Is it even possible to not believe in the existence of someone that you have actually met? I am saying that if they want that evidence they have to cleanse their mind from everything that might pervert or distort their perceptions. How could anyone possibly object to that?

What I see as a major obstacle for believers in finding fulfillment in their beliefs and a major cause for stumbling in thought and perceptions is that their preconceived ideas about God are false, a figment of unrestrained imaginations.

Many, including yourself, were taught that the way to eternal life is by doing the exact opposite of what the law clearly states leads to that life. Consequently what you do at mass to get closer to God results in the exact opposite of your professed intentions. The more you do that which is forbidden by divine law, the more you recede from God in actuality. The more that you recede from God the more you feel the pain of separation. The more you feel the pain of separation the more you have a need to do that which you had been misled to believe leads to salvation and on and on and on.....

You are on journey that is a self aggrandizing descent into oblivion that only leads to death and destruction, caught up in a cosmic whirlpool going nowhere fast.

You have confused the consequences for setting aside the law of God and the teaching of Jesus with a mystical religious experience and in a way you are right. It is a religious experience. Just not a very good one.

And I disagree that there is no help.

If you awaken one day to find yourself among a congregation of believers that have lost their way there is a congregation of believers right there that you can help inspire to help each other to find and walk the true path.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

like you are expecting evidence for a talking snake

Yes, exactly. If someone claims that to be a real event, they have the burden of evidence. Since you don't claim that to be a real event, nobody is pulling your chain. So pipe down.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

There is NO evidence of the type they are wishing for

Correct . Which also means there is no good reason to accept such magical claims.

 

[Meriweather]

Once cannot ‘journey’ to something that does not exist as perceived by theists.

And to perceive ‘god’ as something other than an omnipotent deity is a matter of philosophy and the exploration of the human condition, not a matter of religion, faith, or belief.

Indeed, the raison d'être of religion is to defy evidence, to ignore the fact that religion and ‘god’ are creations of man, and to blindly adhere to one’s religious doctrine and dogma with a complete disregard for evidence, facts, and the truth.

Faith is a way of life, a way towards perfect goodness, love, and justice. It takes practice. People of faith believe humans are made up of body, mind, and spirit. We believe our spirits can and do have help from the Supreme spirit, which is God. For those who believe humans consist solely of mind and body, they can get close to understanding what people of faith strive to undertake simply by working at being good, loving, just people.

 

[Meriweather]

Correct . Which also means there is no good reason to accept such magical claims.

Then don't.

 

[Meriweather]

I am not saying that there is no evidence by which a person can obtain irrefutable proof for the existence of God. What better proof could there be aside from God himself? Is it even possible to not believe in the existence of someone that you have actually met? I am saying that if they want that evidence they have to cleanse their mind from everything that might pervert or distort their perceptions. How could anyone possibly object to that?

What I see as a major obstacle for believers in finding fulfillment in their beliefs and a major cause for stumbling in thought and perceptions is that their preconceived ideas about God are false, a figment of unrestrained imaginations.

Many, including yourself, were taught that the way to eternal life is by doing the exact opposite of what the law clearly states leads to that life. Consequently what you do at mass to get closer to God results in the exact opposite of your professed intentions. The more you do that which is forbidden by divine law, the more you recede from God in actuality. The more that you recede from God the more you feel the pain of separation. The more you feel the pain of separation the more you have a need to do that which you had been misled to believe leads to salvation and on and on and on.....

You are on journey that is a self aggrandizing descent into oblivion that only leads to death and destruction, caught up in a cosmic whirlpool going nowhere fast.

You have confused the consequences for setting aside the law of God and the teaching of Jesus with a mystical religious experience and in a way you are right. It is a religious experience. Just not a very good one.

And I disagree that there is no help.

If you awaken one day to find yourself among a congregation of believers that have lost their way there is a congregation of believers right there that you can help inspire to help each other to find and walk the true path.

This is poor mind reading with poorer conclusions.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Faith is a way of life, a way towards perfect goodness, love, and justice. It takes practice. People of faith believe humans are made up of body, mind, and spirit

And sometimes people of faith blow themselves up at bustops and mutilate the genitals of babies.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Correct . Which also means there is no good reason to accept such magical claims.

Then don't.

Thanks. Unfortunately, that doesnt ever seem to be the end of it. For one, this suspension of incredulity can bleed into other intellectual arenas, as people of faith becaome desensitized to the suspension of incredulity. Furthermore, faith based beliefs are often presented as having as much value as empirical knowledge, which is harmful in some arenas (like, denying climate change because, hey, that aint god's plan) . So I think it is important to point out the fundamental differences between faith based belied and evidence-based determinations and empirical knowledge

 

[Meriweather]

And sometimes people of faith blow themselves up at bustops and mutilate the genitals of babies.

Yes.

 

[Meriweather]

Thanks. Unfortunately, that doesnt ever seem to be the end of it. For one, this suspension of incredulity can bleed into other intellectual arenas, as people of faith becaome desensitized to the suspension of incredulity. Furthermore, faith based beliefs are often presented as having as much value as empirical knowledge, which is harmful in some arenas (like, denying climate change because, hey, that aint god's plan) . So I think it is important to point out the fundamental differences between faith based belied and evidence-based determinations and empirical knowledge

Do you believe the world would be a better place if everyone thinks as you do? Global warming discussions are most often political in nature, not religious. Should everyone hold the same political beliefs?

 

[hobelim]

I am not saying that there is no evidence by which a person can obtain irrefutable proof for the existence of God. What better proof could there be aside from God himself? Is it even possible to not believe in the existence of someone that you have actually met? I am saying that if they want that evidence they have to cleanse their mind from everything that might pervert or distort their perceptions. How could anyone possibly object to that?

What I see as a major obstacle for believers in finding fulfillment in their beliefs and a major cause for stumbling in thought and perceptions is that their preconceived ideas about God are false, a figment of unrestrained imaginations.

Many, including yourself, were taught that the way to eternal life is by doing the exact opposite of what the law clearly states leads to that life. Consequently what you do at mass to get closer to God results in the exact opposite of your professed intentions. The more you do that which is forbidden by divine law, the more you recede from God in actuality. The more that you recede from God the more you feel the pain of separation. The more you feel the pain of separation the more you have a need to do that which you had been misled to believe leads to salvation and on and on and on.....

You are on journey that is a self aggrandizing descent into oblivion that only leads to death and destruction, caught up in a cosmic whirlpool going nowhere fast.

You have confused the consequences for setting aside the law of God and the teaching of Jesus with a mystical religious experience and in a way you are right. It is a religious experience. Just not a very good one.

And I disagree that there is no help.

If you awaken one day to find yourself among a congregation of believers that have lost their way there is a congregation of believers right there that you can help inspire to help each other to find and walk the true path.

This is poor mind reading with poorer conclusions.

Mind reading? Don't be silly. You say one thing but do another. A person doesn't have to be a genius or even know how to read to notice that.

Would you like for me to present the evidence before the judge and jury?

Remember, you have the right to remain silent. Anything that you say can and will be used against you.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Do you believe the world would be a better place if everyone thinks as you do?

Which part, exactly? If you mean, specifically, that faith and evidence based thought do not overlap...yes, the world would be infinitely better.

 

[Meriweather]

Which part, exactly? If you mean, specifically, that faith and evidence based thought do not overlap...yes, the world would be infinitely better.

Is evidence the only source of all we know?

 

[Meriweather]

Mind reading? Don't be silly. You say one thing but do another. A person doesn't have to be a genius or even know how to read to notice that.

Would you like for me to present the evidence before the judge and jury?

Remember, you have the right to remain silent. Anything that you say can and will be used against you.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Is evidence the only source of all we know?

A person who claims to know what his houseplants are thinking...does he actually "know" this?

 

[hobelim]

like you are expecting evidence for a talking snake

Yes, exactly. If someone claims that to be a real event, they have the burden of evidence. Since you don't claim that to be a real event, nobody is pulling your chain. So pipe down.

Ugh... I am saying that the talking serpent was a figurative depiction of an actual human archetype.

How can you possibly not believe that talking serpents are real at the same time a living specimen of that ever elusive species of talking serpent described in great detail in Genesis, who claims to be a religious English teacher, is trying to get you to throw your rational mind in the garbage, everything you already know to be true, in exchange for a poisoned bowl of specious fairy tale porridge with absolutely no shade on her shit?

 

[ding]

As I review the many discussions between theists, and atheists over the question of the existence of God, the issue always seems to boil down to the question of what is meant by the term "evidence". So, what, then is "evidence", and what is the purpose? Is evidence a subjective term whose only purpose is to convince one's self of a position, or is evidence an outward objective quality used to prove, or disprove a position to others looking for answers to questions?

Logically, it seems to me that when one asks for evidence of a thing, they are asking for a quantifiable, verifiable quality that determines the rational expectation for the resolution of a question. For this reason there are various types of evidence, some more rational than others.

A tangible item is evidence. When you create something. I can use what you created as evidence. That isn't up for debate. That is the nature of evidence.

What is debatable is what the evidence tells us.