What are the statistical gaps in the US?

[william the wie]

You should be so lucky.

I was shocked to find out that college was a net negative in terms of discounted dollars

So the cost of education would have a negative impact, it looks like that's what he's saying. Can't you see that?

On average yes lifetime income has two inherited sources:

Genetic factors such as IQ and appearance.

Cultural factors such as connections and family wealth.

While other sources of wealth creation do exist above average educational achievement is not one of them nor would it be useful if true. Anyone and everyone can get a degree. I knew a well respected unpaid church leader who got a mail order AA in carpet cleaning and ended up nicely middleclass in his day job of specialty carpet cleaning doing work normally done by those with PhDs. I also know homeless men one with an MBA from Michigan and another a lawyer with an undergrad in engineering I met with them last night at Books a Million. Both of them work and one of them is recovering from surgery he needed to take care of before his Publix healthcare is cutoff December 31st so I brought them some bags of my variant on check mix. Neither one is wacko nor do they have major psychological problems.

The major dividing lines between the economic quick and the dead all other things being equal are:

Money-management skills such as never mistaking financial leverage for structural leverage and living within one's means. I've known many high school dropouts that got seriously rich in real estate and banking.

Force of personality is another biggie. Doing the same old same old longer than anyone else can or would works. Innovation also works.

Getting a doctorate does not conform to the observed reality of how men and women demonstrate fitness in the competition for mates and all economic activity beyond survival and sanitary needs involves mate selective activity. Corporate or academic battles are all about becoming the herd's stud no different than what happens in gorilla, dolphin, wolf or hyena societies except that the loser is rarely murdered in human societies and the mistresses tend to be better hidden. Any skill set that is not inherited parent to child is worthless in the competition. Above average education is not inherited therefore it does not aid mate selection and therefore is worthless in the competition.

 

[loosecannon]

I would argue that while all of that is true a college education is basically just a filter you must pass thru to automatically be recognized as a friend of the status quo rather than a danger to it.

Once you pass this test and demonstrate your competency to promote status thinking and policy (iow a proven conformist) you will be rewarded according to the rank you have received.

And society itself is an odd beast, at the same time it is indeed an expression of raw animal instinct and behavior, it is also a departure from that same instinct and behavior.

For example the well documented pecking order that a diploma represents.

In short education is it's own kind of Darwinian mechanism. Every bit as important in the long scheme as how you look or how big your fake boobs are.

 

[william the wie]

I would argue that while all of that is true a college education is basically just a filter you must pass thru to automatically be recognized as a friend of the status quo rather than a danger to it.

Once you pass this test and demonstrate your competency to promote status thinking and policy (iow a proven conformist) you will be rewarded according to the rank you have received.

And society itself is an odd beast, at the same time it is indeed an expression of raw animal instinct and behavior, it is also a departure from that same instinct and behavior.

For example the well documented pecking order that a diploma represents.

In short education is it's own kind of Darwinian mechanism. Every bit as important in the long scheme as how you look or how big your fake boobs are.

The educational equivalent of fake boobs are the masters and doctorates that run up the costs of primary and secondary education. Such false displays and hypertrophy of real displays are used to mislead in the animal kingdom too.

 

[rdean]

The propaganda of using gross income to rate the value of educational achievement is the main culprit here. The NPV of education in terms of after tax, after student loan payments free cash flow has been increasingly negative since at least the 80s and that does not count state and federal post-secondary educational subsidies. I suspect the transition was much earlier but I didn't start college until 1980. Since I was sopping up my deferred pay for serving during but not in Nam I decided to find out what my education was worth and looked up the numbers in the counselor's office. I was shocked to find out that college was a net negative in terms of discounted dollars with the exception of those like myself who were being paid to go. (What got me to checking was the claim that IQ has a higher impact on lifetime income than education I have not yet verified the other side of that claim but I find it highly likely to be true.)

So you are saying education is unimportant? Without value? A waste of time?

No. He said no such thing. Are you delusional?

Am I saying that you are delusional?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/econo...statistical-gaps-in-the-us-2.html#post2939650

You said he didn't say that and then he said he did. Then you said I was wrong and delusional and I said you were a fool. Turns out I was right about everything.

 

[rdean]

I would argue that while all of that is true a college education is basically just a filter you must pass thru to automatically be recognized as a friend of the status quo rather than a danger to it.

Once you pass this test and demonstrate your competency to promote status thinking and policy (iow a proven conformist) you will be rewarded according to the rank you have received.

And society itself is an odd beast, at the same time it is indeed an expression of raw animal instinct and behavior, it is also a departure from that same instinct and behavior.

For example the well documented pecking order that a diploma represents.

In short education is it's own kind of Darwinian mechanism. Every bit as important in the long scheme as how you look or how big your fake boobs are.

This is why I believe right wingers don't know what education is. I work as an engineer. I never could have become an engineer if I hadn't gone to college.

Also, colleges and universities is where major research happens in this country. The company I work at paid a local university to design a complex heat exchanger for a very unusual sub system. The senior graduating class was given the project as their final semester "senior design project" and were even given the opportunity to add their names to the patent that resulted from this project. You can't get people off the street who are merely "smart" to do something this complex. Something like this takes a group effort.

See, this is why the right wing doesn't understand the value of education. They don't work together because their party is 90% white. To them, "diversity" is a "bad" thing.

You get the right group of people working together and who knows what they can accomplish. The IQ of the group is greater than the IQ of it's smartest individual member.

 

[william the wie]

That last point is correct but like banking and bonds the current state of higher education is an inflation driven bubble. Exporting the consequences of real asset bubbles is something you regret and I applaud.

 

[loosecannon]

So you are saying education is unimportant? Without value? A waste of time?

No. He said no such thing. Are you delusional?

Am I saying that you are delusional?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/econo...statistical-gaps-in-the-us-2.html#post2939650

You said he didn't say that and then he said he did. Then you said I was wrong and delusional and I said you were a fool. Turns out I was right about everything.

You are never right about everything, and he still didn't say what you asserted, moron.

You want me to prove that with quotes, no prob, moron.

 

[loosecannon]

I would argue that while all of that is true a college education is basically just a filter you must pass thru to automatically be recognized as a friend of the status quo rather than a danger to it.

Once you pass this test and demonstrate your competency to promote status thinking and policy (iow a proven conformist) you will be rewarded according to the rank you have received.

And society itself is an odd beast, at the same time it is indeed an expression of raw animal instinct and behavior, it is also a departure from that same instinct and behavior.

For example the well documented pecking order that a diploma represents.

In short education is it's own kind of Darwinian mechanism. Every bit as important in the long scheme as how you look or how big your fake boobs are.

This is why I believe right wingers don't know what education is.

I am no right winger, moron.

 

[william the wie]

I suspect the end to the Permanent Plateau of Prosperity has not sunk in. The spending of future prosperity (student loans) based on jobs for life that provide retirement and medical is a good plan for the 1950s or 1960s. However bennies and job security started to diminish in the late 60s/early 70s. Tuition free, open admissions and three recruiters for every grad pretty much had blown up by 1972 as an educational policy. I seriously doubt that the propaganda figures given for educational loans would survive inflation adjustment if longitudinal studies of actual income were examined and I know they can't survive discounting for present value. Giving a BA or BS based on two years of high school remediation and two years of actual college level training is also a bit dubious. Like the butterbars and higher in the service who did not understand that it was easier and safer to transport helicopters and assemble them on site in Iran for "Desert Eagle" the disconnect from reality in most college programs was pronounced 30 years ago and has generally gotten worse.

 

[rdean]

I would argue that while all of that is true a college education is basically just a filter you must pass thru to automatically be recognized as a friend of the status quo rather than a danger to it.

Once you pass this test and demonstrate your competency to promote status thinking and policy (iow a proven conformist) you will be rewarded according to the rank you have received.

And society itself is an odd beast, at the same time it is indeed an expression of raw animal instinct and behavior, it is also a departure from that same instinct and behavior.

For example the well documented pecking order that a diploma represents.

In short education is it's own kind of Darwinian mechanism. Every bit as important in the long scheme as how you look or how big your fake boobs are.

This is why I believe right wingers don't know what education is.

I am no right winger, moron.

I said:

So you are saying education is unimportant? Without value? A waste of time?

You said:

No. He said no such thing. Are you delusional?

Then he quoted me:

So you are saying education is unimportant? Without value? A waste of time?

And he said:

On average yes.

Then you said:

You are never right about everything, and he still didn't say what you asserted, moron.

You want me to prove that with quotes, no prob, moron.

So don’t bother. Because I just did. Quotes and all.

But look at what you wrote:

I would argue that while all of that is true a college education is basically just a filter you must pass thru to automatically be recognized as a friend of the status quo rather than a danger to it.

Once you pass this test and demonstrate your competency to promote status thinking and policy (iow a proven conformist) you will be rewarded according to the rank you have received.

And society itself is an odd beast, at the same time it is indeed an expression of raw animal instinct and behavior, it is also a departure from that same instinct and behavior.

For example the well documented pecking order that a diploma represents.

In short education is it's own kind of Darwinian mechanism. Every bit as important in the long scheme as how you look or how big your fake boobs are.

A college education is just a “filter”?

You will be rewarded according to the “rank” you have received?

For example the well documented pecking order that a diploma represents.

In short education is it's own kind of Darwinian mechanism.

Every bit as important in the long scheme as how you look or how big your fake boobs are.

------------------------

You are NOT a liberal. You are a conservative right winger. Because what you wrote is the foundation of the conservative contempt for education. If you believe you are not a conservative, you may want to "talk" to someone. Because it could easily be a case of schizophrenia.

I can't get past this one line:

Every bit as important in the long scheme as how you look or how big your fake boobs are.

So computer programing, ophthalmology or electronic engineering is equal to "fake boobs and looks". I think there is only one "boob" here.

 

[william the wie]

Fake boobs and plastic surgery can increase genetic/economic success just as much as a college education.

 

[rdean]

Fake boobs and plastic surgery can increase genetic/economic success just as much as a college education.

Would you go to a doctor with "fake boobs"? Maybe FOR fake boobs, but not if they were IN the doctor.

I can't believe you would defend such a position. Please tell me it's a joke.

 

[loosecannon]

You are NOT a liberal. You are a conservative right winger.

I am neither one, partisan slime.

So computer programing, ophthalmology or electronic engineering is equal to "fake boobs and looks". I think there is only one "boob" here.

Yes, you. You just did the exact same thing you did to Willie's post, you grossly distorted it's meaning so it would fit into your shallow, narrow world view.

Just like you shallowly and narrowly assume that folks are either liberals or conservatives, as if either of those fabricated labels was real.

Your problem is that you believe in your illusions.

 

[loosecannon]

26% of all trade job losses are high tech/high tech manufacturing jobs!

2.4 million jobs lost due to China from 2001-2008 | The Economic Populist

The propaganda of using gross income to rate the value of educational achievement is the main culprit here. The NPV of education in terms of after tax, after student loan payments free cash flow has been increasingly negative since at least the 80s and that does not count state and federal post-secondary educational subsidies. I suspect the transition was much earlier but I didn't start college until 1980. Since I was sopping up my deferred pay for serving during but not in Nam I decided to find out what my education was worth and looked up the numbers in the counselor's office. I was shocked to find out that college was a net negative in terms of discounted dollars with the exception of those like myself who were being paid to go. (What got me to checking was the claim that IQ has a higher impact on lifetime income than education I have not yet verified the other side of that claim but I find it highly likely to be true.)

So you are saying education is unimportant? Without value? A waste of time?

Clearly in this quoted post Willie said none of what you assumed. NONE. He didn't say education was unimportant, without value or a waste of time.

Now if you had asserted that he thought as much, rather than that he said as much then I wouldn't consider you an illiterate. Or prone to self confusion.

 

[loosecannon]

Fake boobs and plastic surgery can increase genetic/economic success just as much as a college education.

Would you go to a doctor with "fake boobs"? Maybe FOR fake boobs, but not if they were IN the doctor.

I can't believe you would defend such a position. Please tell me it's a joke.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Serious question.

What part of

Fake boobs and plastic surgery can increase genetic/economic success just as much as a college education.

can you possibly disagree with?

 

[william the wie]

Fake boobs and plastic surgery can increase genetic/economic success just as much as a college education.

Would you go to a doctor with "fake boobs"? Maybe FOR fake boobs, but not if they were IN the doctor.

I can't believe you would defend such a position. Please tell me it's a joke.

No joke, if you don't mind being preached to Heinlein's posthumously published "We the Living" does an excellent job of poking holes in the myth of economic man. The state of biology at the time made what was thought to be known at the time about genetics a joke now. Peer group transmission of memes didn't even have a falsifiable theory at the time. However his diagnosis of dynamically astable economics was dead on. There is no general equilibrium just techniques of maintaining assortive mating competition to promote more legitimate and illegitimate great grandchildren among the more probably fit than among the probably unfit. Making a normally high lethality process a relative low lethality process is very difficult and that is all that can be reasonably be expected from the process.

As to education it is a capital intensive industry that requires a great deal of selection to produce positive returns. For example almost all medical school training is directed not at normal medical care but rather quick and effective response to an emergency. That emphasis tends to be forgotten in good times. For most normal medical problems a witch doctor from Borneo is 80-90% effective as a Johns Hopkins MD professor and double blind studies placebos consistently show this. Them's the facts.

 

[antagon]

The number of cars in the US reached 200,000,000 in 1995.

Cars are machines that wear out. As machines wear out they DEPRECIATE. The laws of physics do not care about capitalism and whether a machine is a capital good or a consumer good. They both wear out. Our genius economists add the purchase of capital and consumer goods to GDP but they hardly ever talk about NDP. They only subtract the depreciation of capital good from GDP to compute NDP.

NDP = GDP - Depreciation

But this is not just about the United States. It seems that every nation on Earth has adopted this behavior. Most of the world thinks Americans are intelligent. Or at least used to.

So the depreciation of all of the consumer automobiles and televisions and refrigerators and stereos and computers and etc., etc., etc. is ignored. So consumers replacing junk that only lasts one third as long as it should increases GDP and the junk is not subtracted from anywhere.

And people pay a lot of money to got to college to be taught economics based on defective grade school algebra. We have only been doing this nonsense for 60 years. Is that why the economy is so screwed up?

PBS Discussions :: View topic - The Algebra of Economics

psik

might i offer that buying new shit is indeed a positive economic input, and that depreciation/degradation is positive to the extent that it promotes such?

i see microeconomic and macroeconomic perspectives on the same situations to be converse, often. in light of that, i'm curious about the benefits of modeling which tracks saving and durability ahead of production and consumption.

 

[antagon]

i think an economy is functional to the extent which it puts folks on the productive side of a dichotomy between recipients of government subsistence (disabled, retired, fostered, imprisoned, etc) and those who are producers (basically that they get taxable income).

i like total population to total hours worked/40 for this purpose. it averages in under/over employment on a notional basis, at least. the bls does not track individuals outside the non-institutional working aged group. annoying. i wish U8-U13 somehow tracked institutional outliers... people flock to these classifications when the employment situation goes belly-up for extended periods of time like this. look at the horror in unemployment in the 80s did that improve, or did the focus-group lose constituents to prison and welfare?

 

[antagon]

i haven't read through the whole thread, does anyone want an official M3 back?

pending validation from the latest round of QE, i'd like to see money supply stats account for street money independent from all of this shit the fed makes. what is that? it certainly cant be accessed by normal americans... not even 'normal' banks.

 

[rdean]

Fake boobs and plastic surgery can increase genetic/economic success just as much as a college education.

Would you go to a doctor with "fake boobs"? Maybe FOR fake boobs, but not if they were IN the doctor.

I can't believe you would defend such a position. Please tell me it's a joke.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Serious question.

What part of

Fake boobs and plastic surgery can increase genetic/economic success just as much as a college education.

can you possibly disagree with?

So go to a doctor with fake boobs and plastic surgery. I hope you enjoy the outcome. And live in a house build by someone with fake boobs and plastic surgery. I hope it doesn't burn down.
And the next time you put your family into a car serviced by fake boobs and plastic surgery, don't think about safety. Instead, think about the more important things. Like fake boobs and plastic surgery.