West urges end to South Ossetia fighting

[AllieBaba]

Unfortunately, there's no way to avoid it.

Georgia is our ally, and Russia shouldn't be bombing them.

 

[doeton]

You all are aware that the Georians withdrew from SO and offered a ceasefire and that Russia has now invaded Georgia proper ceasing so far several towns and a military base?

are you aware that they only offered a ceasefire after the russian military came in?

duh. lol. again. big mistake.

The entire premise that the Russians were protecting their citizens is GONE and yet you liberal turds keep defending them. Remind me again how the US was wrong in Iraq but Russia is right in Georgia. Explain that concept?

are you aware of geography????

iraqi isn't and wasn't ever part of our empire (until now).

are you aware that there are not american citizens in iraq?

heheh... come on man.

 

[doeton]

Unfortunately, there's no way to avoid it.

Georgia is our ally, and Russia shouldn't be bombing them.

yeah, at this point the violence should come to a close. no doubt.

 

[KGB]

Unfortunately, there's no way to avoid it.

Georgia is our ally, and Russia shouldn't be bombing them.

sure, there is a way to avoid it, just do so....Georgia was once part of the USSR & has long been in Russian crosshairs.....

are you aware of the Monroe Doctrine? It basically told the Euro powers to stay out of the Western Hemisphere.....

 

[AllieBaba]

How can it be avoided if Georgia is in the crosshairs?
I don't get it.

 

[KGB]

How can it be avoided if Georgia is in the crosshairs?
I don't get it.

simple, we don't get involved.....this isn't our fight.....

 

[AllieBaba]

No, I mean how can Georgia avoid it. I may have misinterpreted what you said.

It's all our fight. You can't stand for all that is free and good in the world, and simply turn your back on people when they need you.

 

[BrianH]

So, a little research shows quite a few of S.O. residents are Russian citizens. S.O. has been its own (unrecognized by most) nation for a few years and Georgia alleged they'd been attacking Georgia, so Georgia tried to force them into becoming part of Georgia again. The Russians objected and retaliated.

Both sides have some merit, though why after an aggressive move by Georgia the S.O. would want to have anything to do with them...

So basically, Russia attacked another nation when it was not attacked...
I agree that there are Russian citizens there, but it still does not warrant all out war on Georgia--by the Russians. S.O. is technically part of Georgia. It claimed it's independence and is fighting a war to win it's independence. No different than any other independence rebellion. Russia has it's fingers in the cookie jar. This is a hopeful landgrab for Russia. I'll admit that the U.S. has done it's fair share of intervening in other conflicts in which I did not agree with, however, we're talking about the Russians and their blood-thirsty response. Georgia attacked military targets in S.O. Russia is bombing civilians in Georgia. There's a big difference.

 

[Ravi]

So basically, Russia attacked another nation when it was not attacked...
I agree that there are Russian citizens there, but it still does not warrant all out war on Georgia--by the Russians. S.O. is technically part of Georgia. It claimed it's independence and is fighting a war to win it's independence. No different than any other independence rebellion. Russia has it's fingers in the cookie jar. This is a hopeful landgrab for Russia. I'll admit that the U.S. has done it's fair share of intervening in other conflicts in which I did not agree with, however, we're talking about the Russians and their blood-thirsty response. Georgia attacked military targets in S.O. Russia is bombing civilians in Georgia. There's a big difference.

Brian, does this mean you no longer think the South had the right to leave the Union? Because it seems pretty much the same. S.O. doesn't want to be part of Georgia. And they've considered themselves a country since the 1990s. While I agree that Russia's motives are probably not pure, I can't say with any certainty that Georgia's are either.

 

[52ndStreet]

America, Israel , and the west should stop dictating to the World, in terms of what to do
with regards to regeional conflicts. I hear the Communist now view America as a "Paper Tiger".

 

[AllieBaba]

That's because we spend way more time listening to the nay-sayers than we should. They are a minority of the population, but every time some lily-livered, pasty-palmed freak cries out "We shouldn't be interfering!" the politicians get all freaked and pull back when they should be taking a stand. It's not, as you imply, because we are dictating to the rest of the world. It's because we don't take strong enough stances.

 

[BrianH]

Brian, does this mean you no longer think the South had the right to leave the Union? Because it seems pretty much the same. S.O. doesn't want to be part of Georgia. And they've considered themselves a country since the 1990s. While I agree that Russia's motives are probably not pure, I can't say with any certainty that Georgia's are either.

No, I don't believe that at all. My only argument with that was the South did not act illegally in seceding. ...The South did have the right to leave the Union...however, the Union won the war... The difference is, Canada did not invade the South over it. It was a civil war. This is exactly what I'm saying. Many argued that the Union had the right to "preserve the Union" and argued that the South did not have the right to secede, even though the Majority of the South wanted to. Now, all of a sudden, there's a double standard, and for some reason, Georgia does not have the right to preserve it's nation under the same circumstances.

Parallels:
Civil War: Majority of South wanted to secede. They did so, then was invaded by the Union. The Union fought to preserve the nation and won. No other country invaded either territories.

Georgia & S.O.- Majority of S.O. wanted to secede (separate). They did so, then were invaded by Georgia. The Georgians are fighting to preserve their nation and losing...because Russian has invade Georgia and has violated internationally accepted boundaries.

I realize that the Civil war and this current conflict are completely different in nature...but basically represent the same problem.

I think this is a classic case of a province separating from it's nation, and the nation is fighting to keep this territory....the only difference is, Russia has invaded Georgia to keep them from preserving their own territory. It does not matter that Georgia has not supported S.O. The North did not support the South leading up to the civil war, politically or economically. I do not believe Russia has the right to intervene...when Georgia is clearly preserving its own nation.

Here's a scenario....say Maine secedes from the United States and wants to become their own country. They raise an army and start training forces. They completely cut themselves off from the U.S. The U.S. sends in forces to stop the rebellion, then Canada invades the U.S. because it is allied with Maine. Do you think Canada has the right to intervene when the U.S. is clearly preserving it's Union?

 

[Ravi]

No, I don't believe that at all. My only argument with that was the South did not act illegally in seceding. ...The South did have the right to leave the Union...however, the Union won the war... The difference is, Canada did not invade the South over it. It was a civil war. This is exactly what I'm saying. Many argued that the Union had the right to "preserve the Union" and argued that the South did not have the right to secede, even though the Majority of the South wanted to. Now, all of a sudden, there's a double standard, and for some reason, Georgia does not have the right to preserve it's nation under the same circumstances.

Parallels:
Civil War: Majority of South wanted to secede. They did so, then was invaded by the Union. The Union fought to preserve the nation and won. No other country invaded either territories.

Georgia & S.O.- Majority of S.O. wanted to secede (separate). They did so, then were invaded by Georgia. The Georgians are fighting to preserve their nation and losing...because Russian has invade Georgia and has violated internationally accepted boundaries.

I realize that the Civil war and this current conflict are completely different in nature...but basically represent the same problem.

I think this is a classic case of a province separating from it's nation, and the nation is fighting to keep this territory....the only difference is, Russia has invaded Georgia to keep them from preserving their own territory. It does not matter that Georgia has not supported S.O. The North did not support the South leading up to the civil war, politically or economically. I do not believe Russia has the right to intervene...when Georgia is clearly preserving its own nation.

Here's a scenario....say Maine secedes from the United States and wants to become their own country. They raise an army and start training forces. They completely cut themselves off from the U.S. The U.S. sends in forces to stop the rebellion, then Canada invades the U.S. because it is allied with Maine. Do you think Canada has the right to intervene when the U.S. is clearly preserving it's Union?

Well...if Maine had recently been part of Canada like O.S. and Georgia had recently been part of the USSR...plus throw in the fact that the Ossetians are their own ethnic tribe - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians

It's hard to say. The break up of the USSR hasn't quite sorted itself out.

Maybe a better analogy would be if Florida invaded the Seminole reservation in an attempt to take back their land and the US put a stop to it.

All these ancient peoples and kingdoms seem to be getting quite uppity.

 

[BrianH]

Well...if Maine had recently been part of Canada like O.S. and Georgia had recently been part of the USSR...plus throw in the fact that the Ossetians are their own ethnic tribe -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians

It's hard to say. The break up of the USSR hasn't quite sorted itself out.

Maybe a better analogy would be if Florida invaded the Seminole reservation in an attempt to take back their land and the US put a stop to it.

All these ancient peoples and kingdoms seem to be getting quite uppity.

lol...fair enough. My analogy was not quite as good as yours. But IMO, considering S.O. is internationally recognized as part of Georgia, Russia has no right to intervene. If they did, Russia would have the right to invade and take over any previously held territory.

 

[Ravi]

lol...fair enough. My analogy was not quite as good as yours. But IMO, considering S.O. is internationally recognized as part of Georgia, Russia has no right to intervene. If they did, Russia would have the right to invade and take over any previously held territory.

You know, I think if their motives are pure then it wouldn't be a bad thing. But since that is probably not the case, and more than likely they are trying to expand their influence (Russia, that is), I can see where it would be a bad thing.

I really can't make up my mind.

 

[Charles_Main]

If nobody acts to stop them, Russia will not stop. They want to rebuild their Empire and they are not going to be easily persuaded from doing so.

As far as Georgia being our ally. It is kinda a joke that they are. They are not exactly run by the greatest people. They are our ally only because of Oil and Gas, we would be wise to stay out of this one.

 

[BrianH]

You know, I think if their motives are pure then it wouldn't be a bad thing. But since that is probably not the case, and more than likely they are trying to expand their influence (Russia, that is), I can see where it would be a bad thing.

I really can't make up my mind.

Well, the real pickle here, is that Georgia really isn't the greatest of places either. Both countries have made bad decisions here. The only reason I fault Russia for this, is because they have done the SAME thing before.

 

[mightypeon]

Russia likely going for a Georgian regime change and formal independence for Abkhazia/South Ossetia. Wether they will go for Tiblisi (Georgian capital) will depend on Georgia willing to submit to a regime change before that or not.

No main power is going to war with Russia over South Ossetia, and I doubt anyone is going to war with it over Georgia either.

So, lets see what the "main powers" are doing:

EU: "New" Europe is making threats in Russias general direction, since "New Europe" is composed of "notable powers" like Poland, the Baltikum and the Ukraine, Russia could not care less.

Old Europe is trying to get some peacetalks (while silently praising itself for not allowing Georgia into NATO) done.

USA: Bush is playing the teethless Lion, McCain is happy about a nice topic for his campaign. Obama is propably thinking "With what a nutcase did we ally there?".

China is watching with a non small degree of amusement and may be a bit pissed because it gets less attention for its Olympia Propaganda festival.

So, Russia is free to do whatever they want. If they go over the top (like occupying Georgia etc.) than they will be hit with some diplomatic fallout. If they simply go for South Ossetian/Abkhazian independence (which will likely be enough to cause S-Wilis downfall, few politicians ever survive a lost war especially if they started it), not much is going to happen in response.
Bush wont be in power long enough for any serious "diplomatic Ice ages", and if McCain gets elected a "diplomatic Ice Age" will happen anyway, regardless of Russia doing anything funny in Georgia. Obama will likely propose a "new deal" with Russia unless they get their hands dirty in a really significant manner.

Bottomline: Russia equalises for Kosovo.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I suggest everyone read the happenings from 1936 to 1939 in Europe. Russia will continue to push till the force a war.

 

[editec]

You're last sentence sums it up for me. Thanks.

If you want to go that route...Technically...the South legally seceded.
Proof: No prohibition of secession in the constitution, no delegation of secession to the fed gov...

I'm all for a region having it's independence, but I am not for a country invading another country claiming "peace-keeping". You know damn well Russia would like to have this region back as it's own...just like Afghanistan and Czechoslovakia. This has happened numerous times before.

I'm not justifying anything bad that either country has done, but I do not believe it right for Russia to intervene.

Spot on...this is about Russian maintaining control over the oil in that region.