Wealth Redistribution

Discussion in 'Economy' started by midcan5, May 21, 2011.

  1. midcan5
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    midcan5 liberal / progressive

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    This is a response to the question asked here. http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/167715-morality-of-wealth-redistribution.html

    Whenever I hear this question from conservatives and libertarians I wonder why they have to ask it for I don't see 'redistribution' anywhere? (While a bit off topic, it always reminds me of the Russian Serf and nobility, or the Slave owner and Slave situation of past centuries.) It is an attitude on the part of the questioner rather than question. A few comments on the use of the words and ideas around the topic.

    Wealth is only created in a society, sometimes a good idea makes money but good ideas do not exist in a vacuum. Each citizen of America has a equal right as citizen to its wealth. So obviously its natural resources belong to all. That everyone cannot take advantage of them, forces the government to regulate their use. Since we all own the timber, coal, petroleum, and other materials, everyone should benefit from their sale and usage. Seems simple.

    People are not moral in the sense in which the question is asked, a few don't steal etc, but most people do what is comfortable for them based on their worldview. Think Mother Theresa and Bernie Madoff. No one, especially those able to benefit most from their class position think about the moral implications of their wealth. We are a society based on the individual who think they are Crusoe. Some very wealthy people eventually create useful charitable organizations, but this aid is often about personal aggrandizement or directed outward. While that is a positive, it does not lessen the fact the monies were made in a particular society from its resources, and if morality plays a part they owe that society much.

    Every citizens pays taxes at some time in their life or their family does, each citizen in some way supports the society they live in and thus deserve help when the society's economy fails to provide opportunity. Membership in a nation grants these rights.

    Wealthy people do not work any harder than others. I hear this constantly and wonder who the heck they are talking about. Show me a wealthy person who works harder than a miner, a roofer, a short order cook or any other job that often pays minimum wage. This is total BS, wealthy people, like so called 'moral' people do what they want and while some have talents that others do not, they still live in a society that provides them additional wealth.

    The idea that incentive is all that is needed is more BS. Consider that something like sixty thousand businesses fail each year in America and these people surely did not lack incentive. They may have thought a bad idea would work but they worked none the less. Success is often luck and timing, few seem to recognize that important part of wealth.

    Another aspect of great wealth is the power it has in a society or nation. Money buys power and lawyers who argue for the wealthy and with our election funding it controls the very people elected to serve the people, all people, but who often only work for the wealthy.

    Since the wealth of a nation belongs to all, redistribution in the pejorative sense in which conservatives and libertarians frame it is a non-starter and an invalid argument. Citizens have a right to a fair distribution of the wealth of the nation they too own. That is the moral thing to do.



    Inequality in a society also leads to the problems noted below, if morality were truly a consideration of a society and its wealth, this would be less a issue. "Great inequality is the scourge of modern societies. We provide the evidence on each of eleven different health and social problems: physical health, mental health, drug abuse, education, imprisonment, obesity, social mobility, trust and community life, violence, teenage births, and child well-being. For all eleven of these health and social problems, outcomes are very substantially worse in more unequal societies." Richard Wilkinson/Kate Pickett The Evidence in Detail | The Equality Trust


    How the rich benefit from what should be owned by all: The Conservative Nanny State and Why we can't ignore growing income inequality. (1) - By Timothy Noah - Slate Magazine


    How did you get rich dadddy? The rich get rich because of their merit. and UBI and the Flat Tax


    "Old-fashioned laissez-faire in its pure form has fewer proponents today, but it is still conventional, among experts as well as in common discourse, to speak of "the economy" as an entity as though it were quite separate from government and society. Instead of these familiar but, we think, misleading distinctions we shall use the older, more accurate term "political economy." This term implies that economic activity is part of a larger social whole; the economy can be completely isolated from politics only in a game." Taming the Savage Market
     
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    Last edited: May 22, 2011
  2. editec
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    editec Mr. Forgot-it-All

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    A FREE MARKET is a mythical animal, much like PURE COMMUNISM or the unicorn.

    The economy of a society and the governance of that society has ALWAYS been inextricably linked.

    To imagine otherwise is flat out silly.

    The KIND of government a society has DICTATES the kind of economic system that will evolve from it. (and oddly enough vice versa)

    It's a kind of SOCIO-FEEDBACK system.
     
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  3. Leweman
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    Leweman Gold Member

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    Regarding luck and timing (also luck I suppose). If that is the only reason that a business succeeds and others fail then that means everything in life is luck and nothing is fair so why bother bitching about anything.
     
  4. Publius1787
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    Publius1787 Gold Member

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    Did you invent the equipment to extract those natural resources? Did you make it profitable to extract those natural resources? Are you paying the government for the lease and the rights? Did you get the education and work skills necessary to extract those resources? What happened to the Soveit oil, wages, and prices once they forced out the British out of their country?

    Define morality? The worth of a man is certainly not how much of his labor he gives to someone else. Nevertheless your code of morality measures the worth of a man by the amount he selflessly gives. The true universal code of morality is to never take the individual lives or liberties of others. The first two paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence spells this out perfectly.

    People support scociety by supporting themselves. Freedom of association demands that I not be forced to associate with anyone who I do not beleive to be in my best interest. This ensures mutual benefit. I am taxed to pay for those eccential government services that defend all of our rights and liberties equally (The General "not specific" Welfare). Membership in a nation only grants you the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit (not guarentee) of happiness.

    The worth of a man is not whether he does manual labor or not. The worth of a man comes from his ability to think, his skills, and his work ethic etc. Those who score low on all of these are who ends up doing the work that no one else wants to do. You interact with and hire people based upon their skills. I am not going to hire a roofer to run a bank with no education in economics or finance and no experience to run a bank.

    Misreading the incentive is what these people do. What must you take in to mind when you judge incentive? Competition, location, avalability of resources, customer base, advertising, wages, benefits, profitability, scarcity, rule of law, regulations, licensing, fees, unions, and the most important one ECONOMIC FREEDOM. Most people fail because they misread the incentive.

    Regulation is the tool the wealthy uses to manipulate the law to create barriers of entery and monopolize through wipeing out competition. The more regulation and government agencies you have, the more the rich can beat competition over the head with the laws and pay off the government officials in the agencies.

    Wealth belongs to those who create it.

    Individual descisions. I should not pay for someone elses COICE to have a child, I should not pay for their CHOICE of eating habit, I am not responsible for their CHOICE to abuse drugs, I should not have to pay for the abortion of the child they cant afford because they CHOSE not to keep their legs shut, and I should not give them INCENTIVES to continue their bad CHOICE of behavior. If I gave them food, housing, healthcare, and transportation, what would be the incentive to work? In the USSR those incentives were taken away and to compensate for their loss, unproductive people were considered "enemies of the state" and sent to the gulags.

    The economy is a series of individuals making individual descisions through pursuing THEIR OWN happiness with the unaleinable rights and liberties that no government can take away. We are the economy and the moment that you force us to stop pursuing our OWN happiness with the horrible intention of FORCING us to provide for the happiness of others there is little to no reason to provide for ourselves.

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJBeuR0xEP8&feature=related]YouTube - ‪Friedman and Sowell on Equality‬‏[/ame]

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GklCBvS-eI]YouTube - ‪Thomas Sowell - Welfare‬‏[/ame]












    Your avatar is a perfect representation of what you support. Economic lunacy.
     
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    Last edited: May 21, 2011
  5. Truthmatters
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    Truthmatters BANNED

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    the push to send the wealth into smaller and smaller hands is killing caplitalism
     
  6. boedicca
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    boedicca Uppity Water Nymph Supporting Member

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    It's not a push, it's a pull...and that pull is being performed by Big Government and its cronies, which have absolutely nothing to do with real capitalism.
     
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  7. Truthmatters
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    you are now claiming the policies of the left have caused a wealth coincentration in this country?

    Please use some facts to back your claim.
     
  8. boedicca
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    boedicca Uppity Water Nymph Supporting Member

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    I'm claiming that Big Government Policies have caused a situation in which the middle class is being squeezed with higher taxes (the total tax burden for a median family has more than doubled as a percent of its income since the 1950s) in order to funnel money to favored cronies and to buy votes from an ever increasing pool of government dependents.
     
  9. Truthmatters
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    UMMm boody, the Bush tax cuts have been in place for years now and your team insisted they be renewed.
     
  10. Oddball
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    Oddball BANNED Supporting Member

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    Thank you, Comrade Marx. :rolleyes:
     

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