We need to stop pretending that this issue is so difficult. It is obvious even to a young child.

[Challenger]

Jews actually inhibit most traits of a tribal system, it's just mutated as they developed into a nation, but tribal tradition is still kept until today.

Religious groups exhibit most traits of a tribal system; just look at Amish, Yazidis, etc. This does not make them a seperate people. Remove the rituals and rules of Judaism from a "Jew" and they are merely Germans, Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians, Arabs, etc, etc.

Of course it did, יהודה was a clan/tribe within Israel.

As I said earlier, perhaps in modern Israeli "hebrew".

Jews during the millenias practiced many religions and many were totally secular.

That would be Judeans, "Jews" are followers/devotees of Judaism, and yes they did practice many religions including Islam and Christianity.

False. 'Living' is not 'breathing' and it's not "rights".

Judenrhein is the Palestinian solution.

Ah, resorting to statard Hasbara tropes

Your understanding of the term 'indigenous' is incorrect. Arabs are as native or indigenous to the land as the average American citizen indigenous to Milwaukee.

Palestinians who adopted Arabic language and culture are still indigenous to the land. The average Zionist Israeli is as indigenous to the land as the average American citizen indigenous to Milwaukee.

Nice demagoguery

Coming from a Hasbarist, I'll take that as a complement. I won't hold my breath waiting for a serious response however.

Actually no. Not a myth, but one of the central themes in the Jewish culture.

What culture? Remove the religion and all you have are Poles, Germans, Russians, Spaniards, Hungarians, etc.

 

[Roudy]

Jews actually inhibit most traits of a tribal system, it's just mutated as they developed into a nation, but tribal tradition is still kept until today.

Religious groups exhibit most traits of a tribal system; just look at Amish, Yazidis, etc. This does not make them a seperate people. Remove the rituals and rules of Judaism from a "Jew" and they are merely Germans, Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians, Arabs, etc, etc.

Of course it did, יהודה was a clan/tribe within Israel.

As I said earlier, perhaps in modern Israeli "hebrew".

Jews during the millenias practiced many religions and many were totally secular.

That would be Judeans, "Jews" are followers/devotees of Judaism, and yes they did practice many religions including Islam and Christianity.

False. 'Living' is not 'breathing' and it's not "rights".

Judenrhein is the Palestinian solution.

Ah, resorting to statard Hasbara tropes

Your understanding of the term 'indigenous' is incorrect. Arabs are as native or indigenous to the land as the average American citizen indigenous to Milwaukee.

Palestinians who adopted Arabic language and culture are still indigenous to the land. The average Zionist Israeli is as indigenous to the land as the average American citizen indigenous to Milwaukee.

Nice demagoguery

Coming from a Hasbarist, I'll take that as a complement. I won't hold my breath waiting for a serious response however.

Actually no. Not a myth, but one of the central themes in the Jewish culture.

What culture? Remove the religion and all you have are Poles, Germans, Russians, Spaniards, Hungarians, etc.

Wrong, on many levels.

 

[montelatici]

Jews actually inhibit most traits of a tribal system, it's just mutated as they developed into a nation, but tribal tradition is still kept until today.

Religious groups exhibit most traits of a tribal system; just look at Amish, Yazidis, etc. This does not make them a seperate people. Remove the rituals and rules of Judaism from a "Jew" and they are merely Germans, Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians, Arabs, etc, etc.

Of course it did, יהודה was a clan/tribe within Israel.

As I said earlier, perhaps in modern Israeli "hebrew".

Jews during the millenias practiced many religions and many were totally secular.

That would be Judeans, "Jews" are followers/devotees of Judaism, and yes they did practice many religions including Islam and Christianity.

False. 'Living' is not 'breathing' and it's not "rights".

Judenrhein is the Palestinian solution.

Ah, resorting to statard Hasbara tropes

Your understanding of the term 'indigenous' is incorrect. Arabs are as native or indigenous to the land as the average American citizen indigenous to Milwaukee.

Palestinians who adopted Arabic language and culture are still indigenous to the land. The average Zionist Israeli is as indigenous to the land as the average American citizen indigenous to Milwaukee.

Nice demagoguery

Coming from a Hasbarist, I'll take that as a complement. I won't hold my breath waiting for a serious response however.

Actually no. Not a myth, but one of the central themes in the Jewish culture.

What culture? Remove the religion and all you have are Poles, Germans, Russians, Spaniards, Hungarians, etc.

Wrong, on many levels.

Yes, you are always wrong on all levels. There are millions of Spaniards whose ancestors practiced Judaism and Islam, and converted to Christianity. They are now Christian Spaniards. You don't get it. Once a European Jew converts to Christianity, he becomes a European Christian. The Spaniards eat paella, like bullfighting etc. The Germans eat weiner schnitzel and like drinking beer. The only thing Jewish about them was the religion. Once the religion is gone they are the same as the rest of the Christians of the particular ethnic/national group.

 

[Roudy]

Jews actually inhibit most traits of a tribal system, it's just mutated as they developed into a nation, but tribal tradition is still kept until today.

Religious groups exhibit most traits of a tribal system; just look at Amish, Yazidis, etc. This does not make them a seperate people. Remove the rituals and rules of Judaism from a "Jew" and they are merely Germans, Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians, Arabs, etc, etc.

Of course it did, יהודה was a clan/tribe within Israel.

As I said earlier, perhaps in modern Israeli "hebrew".

Jews during the millenias practiced many religions and many were totally secular.

That would be Judeans, "Jews" are followers/devotees of Judaism, and yes they did practice many religions including Islam and Christianity.

False. 'Living' is not 'breathing' and it's not "rights".

Judenrhein is the Palestinian solution.

Ah, resorting to statard Hasbara tropes

Your understanding of the term 'indigenous' is incorrect. Arabs are as native or indigenous to the land as the average American citizen indigenous to Milwaukee.

Palestinians who adopted Arabic language and culture are still indigenous to the land. The average Zionist Israeli is as indigenous to the land as the average American citizen indigenous to Milwaukee.

Nice demagoguery

Coming from a Hasbarist, I'll take that as a complement. I won't hold my breath waiting for a serious response however.

Actually no. Not a myth, but one of the central themes in the Jewish culture.

What culture? Remove the religion and all you have are Poles, Germans, Russians, Spaniards, Hungarians, etc.

Wrong, on many levels.

Yes, you are always wrong on all levels. There are millions of Spaniards whose ancestors practiced Judaism and Islam, and converted to Christianity. They are now Christian Spaniards. You don't get it. Once a European Jew converts to Christianity, he becomes a European Christian. The Spaniards eat paella, like bullfighting etc. The Germans eat weiner schnitzel and like drinking beer. The only thing Jewish about them was the religion. Once the religion is gone they are the same as the rest of the Christians of the particular ethnic/national group.

Still wrong....and very ignorant. There is always a Jewish subculture within every nationality. The Spanish Jews lived a very different life and had a very different culture than your everyday Spanish Christian, especially during medieval Spain. I have been to Spain and observed the "Jewish quarters" or what's left of them all across Spain.

Spain's Top 10 Must See Jewish Quarters - WJH

GIRONA

And now to Spain’s very far East – Girona. Girona’s beauty – the hilly Capuchins to the east of the river Onyar; the modern town on the plains of the west – is breathtaking and varied. Nowadays, Girona is a popular day trip for tourists from Barcelona. It’s Jewish past, dating from the late 9th century, isn’t completely obvious at first glance; for that, you have to dig a little deeper. Take a visit to the Centre Bonastruc ça Porta – the Jewish Museum, within the boundaries of the Jewish ‘Call’ (quarter) and the site of Girona’s last synagogue–details all areas of medieval Spanish-Jewish life, including the most famous Jewish Gironan of all, the celebrated Talmudist Nahmanides.

 

[rylah]

Religious groups exhibit most traits of a tribal system; just look at Amish, Yazidis, etc. This does not make them a seperate people. Remove the rituals and rules of Judaism from a "Jew" and they are merely Germans, Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians, Arabs, etc, etc.

So? Tribes too. I don't know if there was a tribe of Yazid, but the tribe of יהודה has a land and a whole religion named after it.
Your logic here is flawed, grass is not a banana because it's green. But if You take the smell and taste from the banana, sure You can call it "grass", but it's still a tasteless banana You have forced to change.

Yazidis are indigenous to Mesopotamia, American Christians are not indigenous. But Yazidis who live in the US or elsewhere, are still indigenous to Mesopotamia, even if they drink American beer and eat bacon or adopted the local language.It's just life.

The same Germans, Arabs, Ukrainians etc used words like Jude, Jid, Hebrey, Yahud...sounds familiar?
European nationalism is only 300 yrs old, it didn't manage to erase those conections and memories,however welcoming it tries to look. it's not even "yesterday" in terms of Jewish history.

As I said earlier, perhaps in modern Israeli "hebrew".

And as I said earlier,
I challenge You to disconnect יהודי from יהודה using any version of Hebrew.

That would be Judeans, "Jews" are followers/devotees of Judaism, and yes they did practice many religions including Islam and Christianity.

Again it's all the same, Judah the tribe, Judea the land of the tribe and Judaism the culture and religion of that same tribe.But in Hebrew it's all one single word יהודה. The Hebrew language is even called יהודית.

Ah, resorting to statard Hasbara tropes

Arabs have rights to that land. I've dealt with that, and I'm an Israeli. Jews have rights to that land. Now deal with it, it's Your issue, not mine.

No matter how thin You try to slice it, always 2 sides.

Palestinians who adopted Arabic language and culture are still indigenous to the land. The average Zionist Israeli is as indigenous to the land as the average American citizen indigenous to Milwaukee.

Funny You bring these people, because the Jews who adopted Arabic,still keep to their Jewish heritage, and have close ties to Israel and especially to the settlers.The majority of Palestinian Arabs historically identify with invading Arabian tribes,even today.

Coming from a Hasbarist, I'll take that as a complement. I won't hold my breath waiting for a serious response however.

I don't get the chest beating. With all Your fixation on religion You have become quiet dogmatic

What culture? Remove the religion and all you have are Poles, Germans, Russians, Spaniards, Hungarians, etc.

Remove the religion and what You have is the educational system, songs,shared history and heritage, community and social structure, language and alphabet, philosophy, literature, law, nation, land, graves, archeology, humor.

The discussion here is more on the definition of culture. Deserves a whole thread.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[montelatici]

Yes, remove the religion and the educational system, the songs, the history, heritage, community, social structure, alphabet, language literatiure, law, nation, land, archeology and humor of Italian Jews, for example, is the same as Italian Christians. Graves are religious. Same as with Jews from France, Great Britain, Poland etc.

 

[rylah]

Yes, remove the religion and the educational system, the songs, the history, heritage, community, social structure, alphabet, language literatiure, law, nation, land, archeology and humor of Italian Jews, for example, is the same as Italian Christians. Graves are religious. Same as with Jews from France, Great Britain, Poland etc.

Really? And all music comes from the basis of the pentatonic scale, used by Africans, Chinese, Japanese and even Russians. So I guess there's no Italian music really...

I'd like to see Your structural analysis of what makes a Neapolitan chorus, versus a German chorus and a Russian one. Please refer to harmony, typical motifs and articulation.
Please pay attention to 1/2 steps and alterations of 3rd's.
Then we can proceed to examination of Russian orchestral pieces with Jewish motifs versus Russian motifs.

But let's make it simpler for You. European music is still stuck with the 7/12 system,98% of what You hear on a western radio is basically 1 Major scale and it's minor relative. Your threshold is Harmonic minor, this is where You start feeling "not home" or "exotic eastern".
On the other hand, the most of traditional Jewish music starts with Harmonic minor, and goes further beyond into the south-east, using a distinctive pattern of repetition and articulation that goes well along with Hebrew.

The most sophisticated European music, although very pleasant is actually really limited and primitive.
But take the simplest Jewish traditional song like "Hava Nagila", in its' traditional Ashkenazi version-
You START with a motif in Harmonic minor (5th mode!) and have a couple of modulations in the middle.And all that in a 2:30 song.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now were You talking about the norther Italians who are more like Germans or their southern brothers who're much more Mediterranean? Because You know if we dig into Italian culture we'll see a lot that is not only "theirs".
Or are You saying Italian capital is Jerusalem?

 

[montelatici]

Yes, remove the religion and the educational system, the songs, the history, heritage, community, social structure, alphabet, language literatiure, law, nation, land, archeology and humor of Italian Jews, for example, is the same as Italian Christians. Graves are religious. Same as with Jews from France, Great Britain, Poland etc.

Really? And all music comes from the basis of the pentatonic scale, used by Africans, Chinese, Japanese and even Russians. So I guess there's no Italian music really...

I'd like to see Your structural analysis of what makes a Neapolitan chorus, versus a German chorus and a Russian one. Please refer to harmony, typical motifs and articulation.
Please pay attention to 1/2 steps and alterations of 3rd's.
Then we can proceed to examination of Russian orchestral pieces with Jewish motifs versus Russian motifs.

But let's make it simpler for You. European music is still stuck with the 7/12 system,98% of what You hear on a western radio is basically 1 Major scale and it's minor relative. Your threshold is Harmonic minor, this is where You start feeling "not home" or "exotic eastern".
On the other hand, the most of traditional Jewish music starts with Harmonic minor, and goes further beyond into the south-east, using a distinctive pattern of repetition and articulation that goes well along with Hebrew.

The most sophisticated European music, although very pleasant is actually really limited and primitive.
But take the simplest Jewish traditional song like "Hava Nagila", in its' traditional Ashkenazi version-
You START with a motif in Harmonic minor (5th mode!) and have a couple of modulations in the middle.And all that in a 2:30 song.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now were You talking about the norther Italians who are more like Germans or their southern brothers who're much more Mediterranean? Because You know if we dig into Italian culture we'll see a lot that is not only "theirs".
Or are You saying Italian capital is Jerusalem?

LOL. How about listening to Italian opera like Lodovico Rocca's opera Il Dibuk or Alberto Franchetti's Cristoforo Colombo or Germania. Among many other musical works by Jewish Italians before writing revisionist nonsense that you copy and paste. It's Italian music, nothing Middle Eastern about it.

 

[rylah]

Yes, remove the religion and the educational system, the songs, the history, heritage, community, social structure, alphabet, language literatiure, law, nation, land, archeology and humor of Italian Jews, for example, is the same as Italian Christians. Graves are religious. Same as with Jews from France, Great Britain, Poland etc.

Really? And all music comes from the basis of the pentatonic scale, used by Africans, Chinese, Japanese and even Russians. So I guess there's no Italian music really...

I'd like to see Your structural analysis of what makes a Neapolitan chorus, versus a German chorus and a Russian one. Please refer to harmony, typical motifs and articulation.
Please pay attention to 1/2 steps and alterations of 3rd's.
Then we can proceed to examination of Russian orchestral pieces with Jewish motifs versus Russian motifs.

But let's make it simpler for You. European music is still stuck with the 7/12 system,98% of what You hear on a western radio is basically 1 Major scale and it's minor relative. Your threshold is Harmonic minor, this is where You start feeling "not home" or "exotic eastern".
On the other hand, the most of traditional Jewish music starts with Harmonic minor, and goes further beyond into the south-east, using a distinctive pattern of repetition and articulation that goes well along with Hebrew.

The most sophisticated European music, although very pleasant is actually really limited and primitive.
But take the simplest Jewish traditional song like "Hava Nagila", in its' traditional Ashkenazi version-
You START with a motif in Harmonic minor (5th mode!) and have a couple of modulations in the middle.And all that in a 2:30 song.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now were You talking about the norther Italians who are more like Germans or their southern brothers who're much more Mediterranean? Because You know if we dig into Italian culture we'll see a lot that is not only "theirs".
Or are You saying Italian capital is Jerusalem?

LOL. How about listening to Italian opera like Lodovico Rocca's opera Il Dibuk or Alberto Franchetti's Cristoforo Colombo or Germania. Among many other musical works by Jewish Italians before writing revisionist nonsense that you copy and paste. It's Italian music, nothing Middle Eastern about it.

How about a serious response?
Sometimes it's ok to admit You don't know, it's sign of sanity.
I actually didn't have to copy paste anything, because it's my daily language, and I didn't even start talking about the 1/4 steps and the phrasing patterns, which are rarely found in the traditions of the West if at all, that are all over Jewish music..

But sure for deaf people this traditional song of the Jewish community in Italy, might sound like Figaro:

 

[montelatici]

Yes, remove the religion and the educational system, the songs, the history, heritage, community, social structure, alphabet, language literatiure, law, nation, land, archeology and humor of Italian Jews, for example, is the same as Italian Christians. Graves are religious. Same as with Jews from France, Great Britain, Poland etc.

Really? And all music comes from the basis of the pentatonic scale, used by Africans, Chinese, Japanese and even Russians. So I guess there's no Italian music really...

I'd like to see Your structural analysis of what makes a Neapolitan chorus, versus a German chorus and a Russian one. Please refer to harmony, typical motifs and articulation.
Please pay attention to 1/2 steps and alterations of 3rd's.
Then we can proceed to examination of Russian orchestral pieces with Jewish motifs versus Russian motifs.

But let's make it simpler for You. European music is still stuck with the 7/12 system,98% of what You hear on a western radio is basically 1 Major scale and it's minor relative. Your threshold is Harmonic minor, this is where You start feeling "not home" or "exotic eastern".
On the other hand, the most of traditional Jewish music starts with Harmonic minor, and goes further beyond into the south-east, using a distinctive pattern of repetition and articulation that goes well along with Hebrew.

The most sophisticated European music, although very pleasant is actually really limited and primitive.
But take the simplest Jewish traditional song like "Hava Nagila", in its' traditional Ashkenazi version-
You START with a motif in Harmonic minor (5th mode!) and have a couple of modulations in the middle.And all that in a 2:30 song.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now were You talking about the norther Italians who are more like Germans or their southern brothers who're much more Mediterranean? Because You know if we dig into Italian culture we'll see a lot that is not only "theirs".
Or are You saying Italian capital is Jerusalem?

LOL. How about listening to Italian opera like Lodovico Rocca's opera Il Dibuk or Alberto Franchetti's Cristoforo Colombo or Germania. Among many other musical works by Jewish Italians before writing revisionist nonsense that you copy and paste. It's Italian music, nothing Middle Eastern about it.

How about a serious response?
Sometimes it's ok to admit You don't know, it's sign of sanity.
I actually didn't have to copy paste anything, because it's my daily language, and I didn't even start talking about the 1/4 steps and the phrasing patterns, which are rarely found in the traditions of the West if at all, that are all over Jewish music..

But sure for deaf people this traditional song of the Jewish community in Italy, might sound like Figaro:

How about a serious response instead of posting self-adulating BS. Italian Jews are Italians that practice Judaism, just as American Jews are Americans that practice Judaism. It's a religion, stupid.

 

[rylah]

Yes, remove the religion and the educational system, the songs, the history, heritage, community, social structure, alphabet, language literatiure, law, nation, land, archeology and humor of Italian Jews, for example, is the same as Italian Christians. Graves are religious. Same as with Jews from France, Great Britain, Poland etc.

Really? And all music comes from the basis of the pentatonic scale, used by Africans, Chinese, Japanese and even Russians. So I guess there's no Italian music really...

I'd like to see Your structural analysis of what makes a Neapolitan chorus, versus a German chorus and a Russian one. Please refer to harmony, typical motifs and articulation.
Please pay attention to 1/2 steps and alterations of 3rd's.
Then we can proceed to examination of Russian orchestral pieces with Jewish motifs versus Russian motifs.

But let's make it simpler for You. European music is still stuck with the 7/12 system,98% of what You hear on a western radio is basically 1 Major scale and it's minor relative. Your threshold is Harmonic minor, this is where You start feeling "not home" or "exotic eastern".
On the other hand, the most of traditional Jewish music starts with Harmonic minor, and goes further beyond into the south-east, using a distinctive pattern of repetition and articulation that goes well along with Hebrew.

The most sophisticated European music, although very pleasant is actually really limited and primitive.
But take the simplest Jewish traditional song like "Hava Nagila", in its' traditional Ashkenazi version-
You START with a motif in Harmonic minor (5th mode!) and have a couple of modulations in the middle.And all that in a 2:30 song.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now were You talking about the norther Italians who are more like Germans or their southern brothers who're much more Mediterranean? Because You know if we dig into Italian culture we'll see a lot that is not only "theirs".
Or are You saying Italian capital is Jerusalem?

LOL. How about listening to Italian opera like Lodovico Rocca's opera Il Dibuk or Alberto Franchetti's Cristoforo Colombo or Germania. Among many other musical works by Jewish Italians before writing revisionist nonsense that you copy and paste. It's Italian music, nothing Middle Eastern about it.

How about a serious response?
Sometimes it's ok to admit You don't know, it's sign of sanity.
I actually didn't have to copy paste anything, because it's my daily language, and I didn't even start talking about the 1/4 steps and the phrasing patterns, which are rarely found in the traditions of the West if at all, that are all over Jewish music..

But sure for deaf people this traditional song of the Jewish community in Italy, might sound like Figaro:

How about a serious response instead of posting self-adulating BS. Italian Jews are Italians that practice Judaism, just as American Jews are Americans that practice Judaism. It's a religion, stupid.

No, You don't even understand the terms at hand.
Religion, in the sense that You use it, is a modern western construct.
Western nationalism is a modern concept as well.
And btw I can easily turn any nation or govt. system into a religion using those terms. They all have rituals and terms like "justice" and "G-d".

Then again, if You wanna go that route, You just solved the problem for immigrant Arabs who want to call themselves "Palestinian" in America, Qatar, Italy and Germany.

 

[montelatici]

Yes, remove the religion and the educational system, the songs, the history, heritage, community, social structure, alphabet, language literatiure, law, nation, land, archeology and humor of Italian Jews, for example, is the same as Italian Christians. Graves are religious. Same as with Jews from France, Great Britain, Poland etc.

Really? And all music comes from the basis of the pentatonic scale, used by Africans, Chinese, Japanese and even Russians. So I guess there's no Italian music really...

I'd like to see Your structural analysis of what makes a Neapolitan chorus, versus a German chorus and a Russian one. Please refer to harmony, typical motifs and articulation.
Please pay attention to 1/2 steps and alterations of 3rd's.
Then we can proceed to examination of Russian orchestral pieces with Jewish motifs versus Russian motifs.

But let's make it simpler for You. European music is still stuck with the 7/12 system,98% of what You hear on a western radio is basically 1 Major scale and it's minor relative. Your threshold is Harmonic minor, this is where You start feeling "not home" or "exotic eastern".
On the other hand, the most of traditional Jewish music starts with Harmonic minor, and goes further beyond into the south-east, using a distinctive pattern of repetition and articulation that goes well along with Hebrew.

The most sophisticated European music, although very pleasant is actually really limited and primitive.
But take the simplest Jewish traditional song like "Hava Nagila", in its' traditional Ashkenazi version-
You START with a motif in Harmonic minor (5th mode!) and have a couple of modulations in the middle.And all that in a 2:30 song.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now were You talking about the norther Italians who are more like Germans or their southern brothers who're much more Mediterranean? Because You know if we dig into Italian culture we'll see a lot that is not only "theirs".
Or are You saying Italian capital is Jerusalem?

LOL. How about listening to Italian opera like Lodovico Rocca's opera Il Dibuk or Alberto Franchetti's Cristoforo Colombo or Germania. Among many other musical works by Jewish Italians before writing revisionist nonsense that you copy and paste. It's Italian music, nothing Middle Eastern about it.

How about a serious response?
Sometimes it's ok to admit You don't know, it's sign of sanity.
I actually didn't have to copy paste anything, because it's my daily language, and I didn't even start talking about the 1/4 steps and the phrasing patterns, which are rarely found in the traditions of the West if at all, that are all over Jewish music..

But sure for deaf people this traditional song of the Jewish community in Italy, might sound like Figaro:

How about a serious response instead of posting self-adulating BS. Italian Jews are Italians that practice Judaism, just as American Jews are Americans that practice Judaism. It's a religion, stupid.

No, You don't even understand the terms at hand.
Religion, in the sense that You use it, is a modern western construct.
Western nationalism is a modern concept as well.
And btw I can easily turn any nation or govt. system into a religion using those terms. They all have rituals and terms like "justice" and "G-d".

Then again, if You wanna go that route, You just solved the problem for immigrant Arabs who want to call themselves "Palestinian" in America, Qatar, Italy and Germany.

You don't understand anything. Palestinian is an ethnic group. They can be of any religion. Jew is not an ethnic group, it is a person that practices Judaism. An Inuit can be a Jew, or a Christian or a Muslim. Judaism is a religion stupid, stop trying to make it more than it is.

 

[rylah]

Really? And all music comes from the basis of the pentatonic scale, used by Africans, Chinese, Japanese and even Russians. So I guess there's no Italian music really...

I'd like to see Your structural analysis of what makes a Neapolitan chorus, versus a German chorus and a Russian one. Please refer to harmony, typical motifs and articulation.
Please pay attention to 1/2 steps and alterations of 3rd's.
Then we can proceed to examination of Russian orchestral pieces with Jewish motifs versus Russian motifs.

But let's make it simpler for You. European music is still stuck with the 7/12 system,98% of what You hear on a western radio is basically 1 Major scale and it's minor relative. Your threshold is Harmonic minor, this is where You start feeling "not home" or "exotic eastern".
On the other hand, the most of traditional Jewish music starts with Harmonic minor, and goes further beyond into the south-east, using a distinctive pattern of repetition and articulation that goes well along with Hebrew.

The most sophisticated European music, although very pleasant is actually really limited and primitive.
But take the simplest Jewish traditional song like "Hava Nagila", in its' traditional Ashkenazi version-
You START with a motif in Harmonic minor (5th mode!) and have a couple of modulations in the middle.And all that in a 2:30 song.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now were You talking about the norther Italians who are more like Germans or their southern brothers who're much more Mediterranean? Because You know if we dig into Italian culture we'll see a lot that is not only "theirs".
Or are You saying Italian capital is Jerusalem?

LOL. How about listening to Italian opera like Lodovico Rocca's opera Il Dibuk or Alberto Franchetti's Cristoforo Colombo or Germania. Among many other musical works by Jewish Italians before writing revisionist nonsense that you copy and paste. It's Italian music, nothing Middle Eastern about it.

How about a serious response?
Sometimes it's ok to admit You don't know, it's sign of sanity.
I actually didn't have to copy paste anything, because it's my daily language, and I didn't even start talking about the 1/4 steps and the phrasing patterns, which are rarely found in the traditions of the West if at all, that are all over Jewish music..

But sure for deaf people this traditional song of the Jewish community in Italy, might sound like Figaro:

How about a serious response instead of posting self-adulating BS. Italian Jews are Italians that practice Judaism, just as American Jews are Americans that practice Judaism. It's a religion, stupid.

No, You don't even understand the terms at hand.
Religion, in the sense that You use it, is a modern western construct.
Western nationalism is a modern concept as well.
And btw I can easily turn any nation or govt. system into a religion using those terms. They all have rituals and terms like "justice" and "G-d".

Then again, if You wanna go that route, You just solved the problem for immigrant Arabs who want to call themselves "Palestinian" in America, Qatar, Italy and Germany.

You don't understand anything. Palestinian is an ethnic group. They can be of any religion. Jew is not an ethnic group, it is a person that practices Judaism. An Inuit can be a Jew, or a Christian or a Muslim. Judaism is a religion stupid, stop trying to make it more than it is.

No,יהודה/יהודים is a tribe, with a culture and a land. A more modern Western term would be an 'ethno-religious" group.
And was a nation long before Arabian tribes and Bedouins took their land and the name of the legendary 'sea people'
But again You're trying to fit a 3500 yrs old Jewsh culture,history and people into a modern western term ,that has no universal definition.

"For example, anthropologist Talal Asad has argued that all attempts at a universal definition of religion are doomed to fail because religion as a concept is itself the product of a specifically Western modern discourse."
https://divinity.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/imce/pdfs/webforum/122003/riesebrodtessay.pdf

The separation is artificial, and is not sufficiently applicable to translations into non-Western cultures and languages.

 

[montelatici]

LOL. How about listening to Italian opera like Lodovico Rocca's opera Il Dibuk or Alberto Franchetti's Cristoforo Colombo or Germania. Among many other musical works by Jewish Italians before writing revisionist nonsense that you copy and paste. It's Italian music, nothing Middle Eastern about it.

How about a serious response?
Sometimes it's ok to admit You don't know, it's sign of sanity.
I actually didn't have to copy paste anything, because it's my daily language, and I didn't even start talking about the 1/4 steps and the phrasing patterns, which are rarely found in the traditions of the West if at all, that are all over Jewish music..

But sure for deaf people this traditional song of the Jewish community in Italy, might sound like Figaro:

How about a serious response instead of posting self-adulating BS. Italian Jews are Italians that practice Judaism, just as American Jews are Americans that practice Judaism. It's a religion, stupid.

No, You don't even understand the terms at hand.
Religion, in the sense that You use it, is a modern western construct.
Western nationalism is a modern concept as well.
And btw I can easily turn any nation or govt. system into a religion using those terms. They all have rituals and terms like "justice" and "G-d".

Then again, if You wanna go that route, You just solved the problem for immigrant Arabs who want to call themselves "Palestinian" in America, Qatar, Italy and Germany.

You don't understand anything. Palestinian is an ethnic group. They can be of any religion. Jew is not an ethnic group, it is a person that practices Judaism. An Inuit can be a Jew, or a Christian or a Muslim. Judaism is a religion stupid, stop trying to make it more than it is.

No,יהודה/יהודים is a tribe, with a culture and a land. A more modern Western term would be an 'ethno-religious" group.
And was a nation long before Arabian tribes and Bedouins took their land and the name of the legendary 'sea people'
But again You're trying to fit a 3500 yrs old Jewsh culture,history and people into a modern western term ,that has no universal definition.

"For example, anthropologist Talal Asad has argued that all attempts at a universal definition of religion are doomed to fail because religion as a concept is itself the product of a specifically Western modern discourse."
https://divinity.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/imce/pdfs/webforum/122003/riesebrodtessay.pdf

The separation is artificial, and is not sufficiently applicable to translations into non-Western cultures and languages.

When did these Arabian tribes take any land from Jews? The land had been Christian and had been inhabited by Christians for centuries before the Arabs conquered Palestine. And, the Christians remained in Palestine and were not colonized by the Arabs, who stayed as rulers.

There is no 3,500 year Jewish culture. Americans, Poles, Germans, Italians and others that practice Judaism are culturally of their respective nationalities. It is religion, which in its current form is of indeterminant age. An Inuit can practice Judaism. Didn't they ever teach you that a round peg won't fit in square hole.

 

[rylah]

How about a serious response?
Sometimes it's ok to admit You don't know, it's sign of sanity.
I actually didn't have to copy paste anything, because it's my daily language, and I didn't even start talking about the 1/4 steps and the phrasing patterns, which are rarely found in the traditions of the West if at all, that are all over Jewish music..

But sure for deaf people this traditional song of the Jewish community in Italy, might sound like Figaro:

How about a serious response instead of posting self-adulating BS. Italian Jews are Italians that practice Judaism, just as American Jews are Americans that practice Judaism. It's a religion, stupid.

No, You don't even understand the terms at hand.
Religion, in the sense that You use it, is a modern western construct.
Western nationalism is a modern concept as well.
And btw I can easily turn any nation or govt. system into a religion using those terms. They all have rituals and terms like "justice" and "G-d".

Then again, if You wanna go that route, You just solved the problem for immigrant Arabs who want to call themselves "Palestinian" in America, Qatar, Italy and Germany.

You don't understand anything. Palestinian is an ethnic group. They can be of any religion. Jew is not an ethnic group, it is a person that practices Judaism. An Inuit can be a Jew, or a Christian or a Muslim. Judaism is a religion stupid, stop trying to make it more than it is.

No,יהודה/יהודים is a tribe, with a culture and a land. A more modern Western term would be an 'ethno-religious" group.
And was a nation long before Arabian tribes and Bedouins took their land and the name of the legendary 'sea people'
But again You're trying to fit a 3500 yrs old Jewsh culture,history and people into a modern western term ,that has no universal definition.

"For example, anthropologist Talal Asad has argued that all attempts at a universal definition of religion are doomed to fail because religion as a concept is itself the product of a specifically Western modern discourse."
https://divinity.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/imce/pdfs/webforum/122003/riesebrodtessay.pdf

The separation is artificial, and is not sufficiently applicable to translations into non-Western cultures and languages.

When did these Arabian tribes take any land from Jews? The land had been Christian and had been inhabited by Christians for centuries before the Arabs conquered Palestine. And, the Christians remained in Palestine and were not colonized by the Arabs, who stayed as rulers.

There is no 3,500 year Jewish culture. Americans, Poles, Germans, Italians and others that practice Judaism are culturally of their respective nationalities. It is religion, which in its current form is of indeterminant age. An Inuit can practice Judaism. Didn't they ever teach you that a round peg won't fit in square hole.

Arabian tribes indeed colonized the land. There're towns full of Arabian tribes from Yemen, Arabia and Hijaz, and they openly admit their origins. Jews never disappeared from the land, and it never ceased to be their land. As much as "America" didn't cese to be the land of the indigenous people, even if the colonizers converted them into "Americans" or "Christians".
The term "RELIGION" is a modern European construct, andis not applicable to non-Western cultures. You cannot fit the east into modern western terms, without forcing in a whole system of additional political terms foreign- to those cultures

An Inuit can also become German and practice "Germanism", with all the national holidays,customs and morals.
Is German nationality a religion?

 

[rylah]

Didn't they ever teach you that a round peg won't fit in square hole.

That's exactly what You try to do here - fit 3500 years of distinct culture and a people into modern European terms (that the westerners themselves can't agree upon).
It's just much more than what You can fit into one word - a tribe, a nation, a culture, a land and the religion.

By the way here's a new term for You - ETHNIC religions. Why don't You check the list?

 

[montelatici]

How about a serious response instead of posting self-adulating BS. Italian Jews are Italians that practice Judaism, just as American Jews are Americans that practice Judaism. It's a religion, stupid.

No, You don't even understand the terms at hand.
Religion, in the sense that You use it, is a modern western construct.
Western nationalism is a modern concept as well.
And btw I can easily turn any nation or govt. system into a religion using those terms. They all have rituals and terms like "justice" and "G-d".

Then again, if You wanna go that route, You just solved the problem for immigrant Arabs who want to call themselves "Palestinian" in America, Qatar, Italy and Germany.

You don't understand anything. Palestinian is an ethnic group. They can be of any religion. Jew is not an ethnic group, it is a person that practices Judaism. An Inuit can be a Jew, or a Christian or a Muslim. Judaism is a religion stupid, stop trying to make it more than it is.

No,יהודה/יהודים is a tribe, with a culture and a land. A more modern Western term would be an 'ethno-religious" group.
And was a nation long before Arabian tribes and Bedouins took their land and the name of the legendary 'sea people'
But again You're trying to fit a 3500 yrs old Jewsh culture,history and people into a modern western term ,that has no universal definition.

"For example, anthropologist Talal Asad has argued that all attempts at a universal definition of religion are doomed to fail because religion as a concept is itself the product of a specifically Western modern discourse."
https://divinity.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/imce/pdfs/webforum/122003/riesebrodtessay.pdf

The separation is artificial, and is not sufficiently applicable to translations into non-Western cultures and languages.

When did these Arabian tribes take any land from Jews? The land had been Christian and had been inhabited by Christians for centuries before the Arabs conquered Palestine. And, the Christians remained in Palestine and were not colonized by the Arabs, who stayed as rulers.

There is no 3,500 year Jewish culture. Americans, Poles, Germans, Italians and others that practice Judaism are culturally of their respective nationalities. It is religion, which in its current form is of indeterminant age. An Inuit can practice Judaism. Didn't they ever teach you that a round peg won't fit in square hole.

Arabian tribes indeed colonized the land. There're towns full of Arabian tribes from Yemen, Arabia and Hijaz, and they openly admit their origins. Jews never disappeared from the land, and it never ceased to be their land. As much as "America" didn't cese to be the land of the indigenous people, even if the colonizers converted them into "Americans" or "Christians".
The term "RELIGION" is a modern European construct, andis not applicable to non-Western cultures. You cannot fit the east into modern western terms, without forcing in a whole system of additional political terms foreign- to those cultures

An Inuit can also become German and practice "Germanism", with all the national holidays,customs and morals.
Is German nationality a religion?

The Arabians that invaded Palestine were not even a majority in the Muslim armies, they were the officer corps and conquered lands to rule. Muslims all over the world claim to be descendants of the Arabians, it is a sign of status among Muslims to claim Arabian heritage, as Mohammed was an Arab. In fact, outside of Arabia, Arabs have very little Arabian heritage. Even Egyptians are only 17% Arabian and mostly native people from the area. Tunisian "Arabs" are only 4% Arabian. Palestinians are probably somewhere in between, about the same amount of Arabian DNA as Ashkenazi Jews (10%) and less than Arab Jews.

Plus, basic logic debunks your bullshit. The Arabian desert could not support large populations. Have you ever been to Saudi Arabia. The now increased population is a result of costly water and associated energy resources utilized to desalinate (and other water generation techniques) that the Saudis and other Arabian states could not afford before the petroleum revolution. Even in 1930 there were only 2 million people in all of Arabia. Byzantine Palestine was far more populous than Arabia in 600 AD.

Judaism is a religion. Germans of all faiths are culturally German after a few generations. Just like Americans of all faiths become culturally American after a generation or two. Your dog won't hunt. Try reading some real history instead of Hasbara bullshit.

By the way, your crazy ideas are consistent with Nazi ideas about Jews. They were wrong then and are wrong now.

 

[montelatici]

Didn't they ever teach you that a round peg won't fit in square hole.

That's exactly what You try to do here - fit 3500 years of distinct culture and a people into modern European terms (that the westerners themselves can't agree upon).
It's just much more than what You can fit into one word - a tribe, a nation, a culture, a land and the religion.

By the way here's a new term for You - ETHNIC religions. Why don't You check the list?

Yeah, yeah. You are such a fool.

"Hitler and other Nazi leaders viewed the Jews not as a religious group, but as a poisonous "race," which "lived off" the other races and weakened them. After Hitler took power, Nazi teachers in school classrooms began to apply the "principles" of racial science. They measured skull size and nose length, and recorded the color of their pupils' hair and eyes to determine whether students belonged to the true "Aryan race." Jewish and Romani (Gypsy) students were often humiliated in the process."

Nazi Racism

 

[Shusha]

Those claiming Judaism is "only" a religion and not a culture need to provide an objective list of criteria which clearly defines each.

 

[rylah]

No, You don't even understand the terms at hand.
Religion, in the sense that You use it, is a modern western construct.
Western nationalism is a modern concept as well.
And btw I can easily turn any nation or govt. system into a religion using those terms. They all have rituals and terms like "justice" and "G-d".

Then again, if You wanna go that route, You just solved the problem for immigrant Arabs who want to call themselves "Palestinian" in America, Qatar, Italy and Germany.

You don't understand anything. Palestinian is an ethnic group. They can be of any religion. Jew is not an ethnic group, it is a person that practices Judaism. An Inuit can be a Jew, or a Christian or a Muslim. Judaism is a religion stupid, stop trying to make it more than it is.

No,יהודה/יהודים is a tribe, with a culture and a land. A more modern Western term would be an 'ethno-religious" group.
And was a nation long before Arabian tribes and Bedouins took their land and the name of the legendary 'sea people'
But again You're trying to fit a 3500 yrs old Jewsh culture,history and people into a modern western term ,that has no universal definition.

"For example, anthropologist Talal Asad has argued that all attempts at a universal definition of religion are doomed to fail because religion as a concept is itself the product of a specifically Western modern discourse."
https://divinity.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/imce/pdfs/webforum/122003/riesebrodtessay.pdf

The separation is artificial, and is not sufficiently applicable to translations into non-Western cultures and languages.

When did these Arabian tribes take any land from Jews? The land had been Christian and had been inhabited by Christians for centuries before the Arabs conquered Palestine. And, the Christians remained in Palestine and were not colonized by the Arabs, who stayed as rulers.

There is no 3,500 year Jewish culture. Americans, Poles, Germans, Italians and others that practice Judaism are culturally of their respective nationalities. It is religion, which in its current form is of indeterminant age. An Inuit can practice Judaism. Didn't they ever teach you that a round peg won't fit in square hole.

Arabian tribes indeed colonized the land. There're towns full of Arabian tribes from Yemen, Arabia and Hijaz, and they openly admit their origins. Jews never disappeared from the land, and it never ceased to be their land. As much as "America" didn't cese to be the land of the indigenous people, even if the colonizers converted them into "Americans" or "Christians".
The term "RELIGION" is a modern European construct, andis not applicable to non-Western cultures. You cannot fit the east into modern western terms, without forcing in a whole system of additional political terms foreign- to those cultures

An Inuit can also become German and practice "Germanism", with all the national holidays,customs and morals.
Is German nationality a religion?

The Arabians that invaded Palestine were not even a majority in the Muslim armies, they were the officer corps and conquered lands to rule. Muslims all over the world claim to be descendants of the Arabians, it is a sign of status among Muslims to claim Arabian heritage, as Mohammed was an Arab. In fact, outside of Arabia, Arabs have very little Arabian heritage. Even Egyptians are only 17% Arabian and mostly native people from the area. Tunisian "Arabs" are only 4% Arabian. Palestinians are probably somewhere in between, about the same amount of Arabian DNA as Ashkenazi Jews (10%) and less than Arab Jews.

Plus, basic logic debunks your bullshit. The Arabian desert could not support large populations. Have you ever been to Saudi Arabia. The now increased population is a result of costly water and associated energy resources utilized to desalinate (and other water generation techniques) that the Saudis and other Arabian states could not afford before the petroleum revolution. Even in 1930 there were only 2 million people in all of Arabia. Byzantine Palestine was far more populous than Arabia in 600 AD.

Judaism is a religion. Germans of all faiths are culturally German after a few generations. Just like Americans of all faiths become culturally American after a generation or two. Your dog won't hunt. Try reading some real history instead of Hasbara bullshit.

By the way, your crazy ideas are consistent with Nazi ideas about Jews. They were wrong then and are wrong now.

There's no logic to what You say, especially if You judge a situation in the 7th century, by Your subjective, personal experience in the 21st century. Lebanon is 44% Arabian - according to Your source. And it's much closer than Egypt or Tunis.

And I'm sorry to reveal to You, but Turks in Germany are still Turks in every sense of the word, and the Kurds in US didn't magically become "Native Americans" even though they might have US citizenship, play football and celebrate the 4th of July or New year's eve. It doesn't mean Kurds or Turks can't be loyal citizens, and it doesn't mean they consider themselves a separate better race. They're just differentiate culturally from the Italians, Irish and the REAL indigenous Americans.