We are in big trouble

[Sallow]

.

Yep, fiscally we've passed the tipping point. It's going to manifest in a generally lower standard of living across the board. The question now is how far the decline will be. People don't see what a $16T debt does to our economy, and far worse, they don't understand the damage higher interest rates are going to cause.

If it means going from a 60" big screen and two nice cars to a 42" big screen and two medium-nice cars, that's one thing, hopefully that will be the extent. We'll see!

There's one thing on which we can be certain: The deck hands will be pointing the finger at each other as the boat sinks.

.

Really?

You think the zero interest rates that Bush put in place is realistic?

Personally I think we need to get back to what Clinton enacted and was ABANDONED by the Bush administration. That spending match revenue. If you don't got it..you can't spend it.

Very simple concept.

 

[G.T.]

I’m hoping this is sarcasm but in case it is not. The economy is not better. Pull your head out of your butt and look around if you think it is. Interest rates still historically low and amazingly enough going even lower. Gold is at historically high rates and amazingly enough still going up. The fed is pumping more money into the economy like a person pumping a person’s chest in CPR. Like I said I hope you are being sarcastic.

Those lies are why your party lost the election.

Lies and an uneducated electorate is why your party won.

Interest rates
US Department of the Treasury
Gold
http://www.chartsrus.com/chart.php?image=http://www.sharelynx.com/chartstemp/free/chartind1CRU.php?ticker=^GOX
Fed
Federal Reserve launches QE3 - Sep. 13, 2012

 

[Truthmatters]

I gave you a link on the other thread.

You are not aware, then, that Obama said he would veto 'fiscal cliff' legislation he didn't like?

The "other" thread? Which one would that be? There are thousands and I work for a living and don't have time to do your leg work for you.

I will give you the link again if you are incapable of using a search engine.

Before I do that, will you promise to stay here for the 15 seconds it takes me to do it so that I can gloat over making you look like an ignorant fool again?

when you site a fact provide a link to prove its indeed a fact.

it really doesnt hurt you to do it.


dont be lazy

 

[SniperFire]

I gave you a link on the other thread.

You are not aware, then, that Obama said he would veto 'fiscal cliff' legislation he didn't like?

The "other" thread? Which one would that be? There are thousands and I work for a living and don't have time to do your leg work for you.

I will give you the link again if you are incapable of using a search engine.

Before I do that, will you promise to stay here for the 15 seconds it takes me to do it so that I can gloat over making you look like an ignorant fool again?

bump



You still there, commrade?

We don't want you to continue to post in ignorance as to Obama being the only one on record for killing 'fiscal cliff' legislation.


LOL

 

[Pinocchio]

Like small businesses firing people after 18 tax cuts, to "spite" the President and because they buy into partisanship.

They cannot afford obamacare. They told you that before you rammed it down their throats. Well, you didn't listen. So. expect massive layoffs and reductions to part time and call everyone of them "sour grapes" that'll work for ya won't it?

Umm, they don't need to afford Obamacare unless they have over 50 employees, which isn't a "small" Business exactly, and once you have 50 employees if you can't afford to pay a portion of benefits, you blow as a business owner and deserve to be buried so that someone BETTER at business can come through and sweep-up your market share.

ACA, aka Obamacare, aka Romneycare, has finally tackled the out of control spiral of health care. BTW, Romneycare works fine in MA and its not like MA is a separate country.

I work for a big communication company that pays my healthcare. The public, small bus and their workers use this company, so the public is actually paying. Thru the big companies, we already have public health care. It is the employees of a small bus who can't afford it. So no, I don't mind helping them in turn with affordable health care.

All big companies provide health insurance and this levels the playing field. It will be the same for small business.

 

[Old Rocks]

Take a look at the percentage of our economy that already goes to nothing but paying off debt/Treasuries. Then calculate what is going to happen, what it's going to cost us, when we're still borrowing at a frantic pace but paying 7% for 10-year notes instead of 1.75%.

I hope I'm wrong, I hope you're right.

.

You forgot the rest of my post, but to your point, the money doesn't "go to nothing," much of it was borrowed to pay for things that will generate FUTURE profits, and savings. It was the long-term approach. Paying up now for things like preventative care - make *now* more expensive, for a less expensive future, for example.

Investing in the sciences of the future make *now* more expensive, for a much more successful future. Most of the time, when you study deeper into these things, there's a "bigger picture" that the headlines don't tell you.



I'll give you an example. I got really peeved one day, because some business out in California was killing some fish or bug or something (don't remember the specifics). So we paid federal dollars to protect said bug or fish (whatever it was). I was so mad about thaT SEEMINGLY WASTED MONEY, IN TIMES LIKE THESE. All the Conservative headlines said something about "2 million to save a dung beetle! (not the exact bug, mind you).

But when I read a study about what would happen to the ecosystem of the coast if said creature died off, the cost of protecting it was a DROP IN THE BUCKET to what it was going to cost the coast when its extinction happened.

That's why people need to be more pragmatic and more visionary, less REACTionary. People are so much faster to foam at the mouth and declare doom and gloom before they invest any time or energy into LEARNING.

At best we are making gambles that those investments are going to pay off. Problem is most of this money has not been invested well to recoup nearly the amount needed. Further, a majority of this money is not going to investments at all. Most of it is going to welfare, military, domestic spending, etc…. Back in the 30s and 40s when countries like Germany and the US invested in roads and schools it had a huge return because there were no roads or schools to start with so those investments got the max amount of return. Now we don’t get near those returns because most of the roads and schools needed already exist. Now we just basically increase union workers pay which is not an investment at all.

Are you that blind? There are several areas that must be addressed if we are going to get back to fiscal health and economic competiveness. Perhaps first and foremost is the distribution of energy in this nation. We have a grid that is an antique. Actually, we have three grids that do not intertie in a meaningful way. We have seen Texas shutting down windmills at the very time the East Coast had a major energy shortage. And we have vast areas with excellant wind potential, but no grid there to pick up the energy. Same goes for geothermal and solar.

Today, South Korea is graduating more engineers than we in the US are. And China is graduating many, many more. You cannot have a modern technological economy without the educated personel to run it. From engineers to craftsmen, we are way behind countries like Germany, South Korea, and China.

Ramping up our research facilities. R and D are the lifes blood of a technological economy. Shorting these areas is like eating your seed corn. There are areas crying for major breakthroughs. One is battery technology. Build a battery that has 3 times the capacity, and costs one third of the present batteries, and you have a product to sell to the world, plus a we would, in a decade or so, not need to import oil at all.

Now there is money out there. Private equity firms are sitting on several trillion dollars. Their excuse is that the markets are not stable enough to make investments. Yet a good deal of the instability is because of the lack of investment. Perhaps we need something like an inventory tax on money.

And then there is reasonable maintenance on the infrastructure that exists. The bridges on our interstates are in major disrepair. The water systems that many major cities depend on are old and very leaky. Much of our urban grid is very vulneble to storms.

There is no lack of things that need to be done that really are investments in our future, and would have major paybacks. But there is a lack of will among all too many people to see these as investments. All too many, like Romney, see two trillon in defense spending as far more important than two trillion in infrastructure spending. A very poor priority set.

 

[Pinocchio]

I’m hoping this is sarcasm but in case it is not. The economy is not better. Pull your head out of your butt and look around if you think it is. Interest rates still historically low and amazingly enough going even lower. Gold is at historically high rates and amazingly enough still going up. The fed is pumping more money into the economy like a person pumping a person’s chest in CPR. Like I said I hope you are being sarcastic.

Those lies are why your party lost the election.

Lies and an uneducated electorate is why your party won.

Interest rates
US Department of the Treasury
Gold
http://www.chartsrus.com/chart.php?image=http://www.sharelynx.com/chartstemp/free/chartind1CRU.php?ticker=^GOX
Fed
Federal Reserve launches QE3 - Sep. 13, 2012

The last month of the Bush admin, Jan 2009, we were losing 800,000+ jobs a month and headed for the worse depression in history. The banks were on the verge of collapse, not lending and the private sector in no position to spend or hire, just fire.

Bush knew this, and started TARP, the auto bailout and yes stimulus. Bush said he didn't want his admin's legacy to be an economy in depression.

So from the precipice of depression, the ending of the recession in June, 2009 (as Sniperfire has pointed out) we are indeed in recovery, ie housing.

In a lesser recession, a tax cut is the most efficient but in a deep shit depression, stimulus spending is the only way out. This is Econ 101.

So get your head out of your butt and smell the coffee.

 

[Pinocchio]

Here is an article for you, if you are from Miami.


Cuban American support for Obama belies community’s image - Fabiola Santiago - MiamiHerald.com

 

[miami_thomas]

.

Yep, fiscally we've passed the tipping point. It's going to manifest in a generally lower standard of living across the board. The question now is how far the decline will be. People don't see what a $16T debt does to our economy, and far worse, they don't understand the damage higher interest rates are going to cause.

If it means going from a 60" big screen and two nice cars to a 42" big screen and two medium-nice cars, that's one thing, hopefully that will be the extent. We'll see!

There's one thing on which we can be certain: The deck hands will be pointing the finger at each other as the boat sinks.

.

Really?

You think the zero interest rates that Bush put in place is realistic?

Personally I think we need to get back to what Clinton enacted and was ABANDONED by the Bush administration. That spending match revenue. If you don't got it..you can't spend it.

Very simple concept.

Bush inherited a slowing economy from Clinton. Clinton took advantage of a roaring economy left by Reagan and Bush Senior. When you have that benefit you can raise taxes and make a profit but that was like hitting the brakes a moving train. It took a while but eventually the train started to stop.

 

[miami_thomas]

They cannot afford obamacare. They told you that before you rammed it down their throats. Well, you didn't listen. So. expect massive layoffs and reductions to part time and call everyone of them "sour grapes" that'll work for ya won't it?

Umm, they don't need to afford Obamacare unless they have over 50 employees, which isn't a "small" Business exactly, and once you have 50 employees if you can't afford to pay a portion of benefits, you blow as a business owner and deserve to be buried so that someone BETTER at business can come through and sweep-up your market share.

ACA, aka Obamacare, aka Romneycare, has finally tackled the out of control spiral of health care. BTW, Romneycare works fine in MA and its not like MA is a separate country.

I work for a big communication company that pays my healthcare. The public, small bus and their workers use this company, so the public is actually paying. Thru the big companies, we already have public health care. It is the employees of a small bus who can't afford it. So no, I don't mind helping them in turn with affordable health care.

All big companies provide health insurance and this levels the playing field. It will be the same for small business.

First they are different and MA gets Medicaid money from the Federal government to help out. The federal government is not going to be getting extra money to help out. Also health care costs rose in MA. See link below as MA tried to pass a bill this year to try to tackle the rising health care costs. The fact is you cannot increase demand and lower costs. So now the state is trying to find other ways to cut costs and at the end of the day they will start to have to ration care they just don’t know it yet.

Massachusetts Takes on Health Costs - NYTimes.com

 

[miami_thomas]

You forgot the rest of my post, but to your point, the money doesn't "go to nothing," much of it was borrowed to pay for things that will generate FUTURE profits, and savings. It was the long-term approach. Paying up now for things like preventative care - make *now* more expensive, for a less expensive future, for example.

Investing in the sciences of the future make *now* more expensive, for a much more successful future. Most of the time, when you study deeper into these things, there's a "bigger picture" that the headlines don't tell you.



I'll give you an example. I got really peeved one day, because some business out in California was killing some fish or bug or something (don't remember the specifics). So we paid federal dollars to protect said bug or fish (whatever it was). I was so mad about thaT SEEMINGLY WASTED MONEY, IN TIMES LIKE THESE. All the Conservative headlines said something about "2 million to save a dung beetle! (not the exact bug, mind you).

But when I read a study about what would happen to the ecosystem of the coast if said creature died off, the cost of protecting it was a DROP IN THE BUCKET to what it was going to cost the coast when its extinction happened.

That's why people need to be more pragmatic and more visionary, less REACTionary. People are so much faster to foam at the mouth and declare doom and gloom before they invest any time or energy into LEARNING.

At best we are making gambles that those investments are going to pay off. Problem is most of this money has not been invested well to recoup nearly the amount needed. Further, a majority of this money is not going to investments at all. Most of it is going to welfare, military, domestic spending, etc…. Back in the 30s and 40s when countries like Germany and the US invested in roads and schools it had a huge return because there were no roads or schools to start with so those investments got the max amount of return. Now we don’t get near those returns because most of the roads and schools needed already exist. Now we just basically increase union workers pay which is not an investment at all.

Are you that blind? There are several areas that must be addressed if we are going to get back to fiscal health and economic competiveness. Perhaps first and foremost is the distribution of energy in this nation. We have a grid that is an antique. Actually, we have three grids that do not intertie in a meaningful way. We have seen Texas shutting down windmills at the very time the East Coast had a major energy shortage. And we have vast areas with excellant wind potential, but no grid there to pick up the energy. Same goes for geothermal and solar.

Today, South Korea is graduating more engineers than we in the US are. And China is graduating many, many more. You cannot have a modern technological economy without the educated personel to run it. From engineers to craftsmen, we are way behind countries like Germany, South Korea, and China.

Ramping up our research facilities. R and D are the lifes blood of a technological economy. Shorting these areas is like eating your seed corn. There are areas crying for major breakthroughs. One is battery technology. Build a battery that has 3 times the capacity, and costs one third of the present batteries, and you have a product to sell to the world, plus a we would, in a decade or so, not need to import oil at all.

Now there is money out there. Private equity firms are sitting on several trillion dollars. Their excuse is that the markets are not stable enough to make investments. Yet a good deal of the instability is because of the lack of investment. Perhaps we need something like an inventory tax on money.

And then there is reasonable maintenance on the infrastructure that exists. The bridges on our interstates are in major disrepair. The water systems that many major cities depend on are old and very leaky. Much of our urban grid is very vulneble to storms.

There is no lack of things that need to be done that really are investments in our future, and would have major paybacks. But there is a lack of will among all too many people to see these as investments. All too many, like Romney, see two trillon in defense spending as far more important than two trillion in infrastructure spending. A very poor priority set.

Again nothing you are stating is guaranteed to have a huge return. As for the batteries, usually we invent something only to be built in China. As for education, there is plenty of education available but the problem here is not the education available but rather the culture of the students. Throwing more money at education will not improve education. As for roads and bridges that is the state and we pay taxes for that already. Even at that the repair of those bridges will not make us anymore money. It may save us from losing money but at this point we need more money.

 

[miami_thomas]

Those lies are why your party lost the election.

Lies and an uneducated electorate is why your party won.

Interest rates
US Department of the Treasury
Gold
http://www.chartsrus.com/chart.php?image=http://www.sharelynx.com/chartstemp/free/chartind1CRU.php?ticker=^GOX
Fed
Federal Reserve launches QE3 - Sep. 13, 2012

The last month of the Bush admin, Jan 2009, we were losing 800,000+ jobs a month and headed for the worse depression in history. The banks were on the verge of collapse, not lending and the private sector in no position to spend or hire, just fire.

Bush knew this, and started TARP, the auto bailout and yes stimulus. Bush said he didn't want his admin's legacy to be an economy in depression.

So from the precipice of depression, the ending of the recession in June, 2009 (as Sniperfire has pointed out) we are indeed in recovery, ie housing.

In a lesser recession, a tax cut is the most efficient but in a deep shit depression, stimulus spending is the only way out. This is Econ 101.

So get your head out of your butt and smell the coffee.

Worst depression ever, really? As for the recovery, we have supposedly been in recovery for 3 years now. To be a recovery at some point you actually have to recover or there was no recovery at all. But still interest is low and we are still getting stimulus money from the fed and the government. Gold is still high and we are still in a recovery now? If things are not going up, you are not in a recovery you are just flat.

 

[miami_thomas]

Here is an article for you, if you are from Miami.


Cuban American support for Obama belies community’s image - Fabiola Santiago - MiamiHerald.com

You are correct I live in Miami and I can tell you the Cuban’s that were in Cuba when the Cuban revolution occurred did not vote for Obama. I don’t know what this has to do with this thread though.

 

[ThomasPaine1776]

The ball is in Boehner's court. Fiscal measures are initiated by the House. If you're worried, be worried that he'd rather drive us off the cliff than do what's right for the country. It's time to buckle down and do some real governing.

Obama just announced on TV that he feels his re-election was a mandate.

 

[miami_thomas]

Those lies are why your party lost the election.

Lies and an uneducated electorate is why your party won.

Interest rates
US Department of the Treasury
Gold
http://www.chartsrus.com/chart.php?image=http://www.sharelynx.com/chartstemp/free/chartind1CRU.php?ticker=^GOX
Fed
Federal Reserve launches QE3 - Sep. 13, 2012

Just because someone went to college does not mean they pay attention to politics or the economy.

 

[Pinocchio]

Lies and an uneducated electorate is why your party won.

Interest rates
US Department of the Treasury
Gold
http://www.chartsrus.com/chart.php?image=http://www.sharelynx.com/chartstemp/free/chartind1CRU.php?ticker=^GOX
Fed
Federal Reserve launches QE3 - Sep. 13, 2012

The last month of the Bush admin, Jan 2009, we were losing 800,000+ jobs a month and headed for the worse depression in history. The banks were on the verge of collapse, not lending and the private sector in no position to spend or hire, just fire.

Bush knew this, and started TARP, the auto bailout and yes stimulus. Bush said he didn't want his admin's legacy to be an economy in depression.

So from the precipice of depression, the ending of the recession in June, 2009 (as Sniperfire has pointed out) we are indeed in recovery, ie housing.

In a lesser recession, a tax cut is the most efficient but in a deep shit depression, stimulus spending is the only way out. This is Econ 101.

So get your head out of your butt and smell the coffee.

Worst depression ever, really? As for the recovery, we have supposedly been in recovery for 3 years now. To be a recovery at some point you actually have to recover or there was no recovery at all. But still interest is low and we are still getting stimulus money from the fed and the government. Gold is still high and we are still in a recovery now? If things are not going up, you are not in a recovery you are just flat.

Historically, coming out of a financial recession takes longer. It took ten years and WW II to get out of the Great Depression. Stimulus stopped two years ago but enough time for the economy to get its legs back.

Housing usually leads us out of a recession, but this time it took time to work off the excess housing inventory and debt accrued. Alot of morons took equity loans off their inflated housing prices.

Under the circumstances, the recovery has proceeded as well as could be expected. Yes, stimulus got us out which equals debt. Unfortunately Bush had tax cuts and unfunded wars and we went into the great recession accruing $5 trillion in debt and much less leverage to get us out. VP Cheney said debt didn't matter back then. Did you complain?

It hasn't helped that the US bond rating was lowered because the Tea Party house was willing to default on the debt, to get rid of Obama. This contributed to higher interest payment on the debt and a slower recovery, aka flat econ. Not very patriotic. How about mentioning that ?

 

[miami_thomas]

The last month of the Bush admin, Jan 2009, we were losing 800,000+ jobs a month and headed for the worse depression in history. The banks were on the verge of collapse, not lending and the private sector in no position to spend or hire, just fire.

Bush knew this, and started TARP, the auto bailout and yes stimulus. Bush said he didn't want his admin's legacy to be an economy in depression.

So from the precipice of depression, the ending of the recession in June, 2009 (as Sniperfire has pointed out) we are indeed in recovery, ie housing.

In a lesser recession, a tax cut is the most efficient but in a deep shit depression, stimulus spending is the only way out. This is Econ 101.

So get your head out of your butt and smell the coffee.

Worst depression ever, really? As for the recovery, we have supposedly been in recovery for 3 years now. To be a recovery at some point you actually have to recover or there was no recovery at all. But still interest is low and we are still getting stimulus money from the fed and the government. Gold is still high and we are still in a recovery now? If things are not going up, you are not in a recovery you are just flat.

Historically, coming out of a financial recession takes longer. It took ten years and WW II to get out of the Great Depression. Stimulus stopped two years ago but enough time for the economy to get its legs back.

Housing usually leads us out of a recession, but this time it took time to work off the excess housing inventory and debt accrued. Alot of morons took equity loans off their inflated housing prices.

Under the circumstances, the recovery has proceeded as well as could be expected. Yes, stimulus got us out which equals debt. Unfortunately Bush had tax cuts and unfunded wars and we went into the great recession accruing $5 trillion in debt and much less leverage to get us out. VP Cheney said debt didn't matter back then. Did you complain?

It hasn't helped that the US bond rating was lowered because the Tea Party house was willing to default on the debt, to get rid of Obama. This contributed to higher interest payment on the debt and a slower recovery, aka flat econ. Not very patriotic. How about mentioning that ?

if spending is the way to get an economy going, California and Greece would be booming. Why don't you try an experiment at home. Go get your self in trouble and then try and spend your way out of it.

Stimulus is still happening. We are pumping 1.5 trillion dollars of borrowed money into the economy. The fed is still stimulating the economy with low interest rates and qe3. The cbo said if we raise taxes and cut spending by 500 billion we would go into a recession. That is because the economy is still on life support.

 

[Rozman]

Does anyone here think that the people who voted for Obama have any knowledge of this issue.
They watch MSNBC who pushes Obama on their viewers.So they go out and vote for Obama.

 

[Pinocchio]

Worst depression ever, really? As for the recovery, we have supposedly been in recovery for 3 years now. To be a recovery at some point you actually have to recover or there was no recovery at all. But still interest is low and we are still getting stimulus money from the fed and the government. Gold is still high and we are still in a recovery now? If things are not going up, you are not in a recovery you are just flat.

Historically, coming out of a financial recession takes longer. It took ten years and WW II to get out of the Great Depression. Stimulus stopped two years ago but enough time for the economy to get its legs back.

Housing usually leads us out of a recession, but this time it took time to work off the excess housing inventory and debt accrued. Alot of morons took equity loans off their inflated housing prices.

Under the circumstances, the recovery has proceeded as well as could be expected. Yes, stimulus got us out which equals debt. Unfortunately Bush had tax cuts and unfunded wars and we went into the great recession accruing $5 trillion in debt and much less leverage to get us out. VP Cheney said debt didn't matter back then. Did you complain?

It hasn't helped that the US bond rating was lowered because the Tea Party house was willing to default on the debt, to get rid of Obama. This contributed to higher interest payment on the debt and a slower recovery, aka flat econ. Not very patriotic. How about mentioning that ?

if spending is the way to get an economy going, California and Greece would be booming. Why don't you try an experiment at home. Go get your self in trouble and then try and spend your way out of it.

Stimulus is still happening. We are pumping 1.5 trillion dollars of borrowed money into the economy. The fed is still stimulating the economy with low interest rates and qe3. The cbo said if we raise taxes and cut spending by 500 billion we would go into a recession. That is because the economy is still on life support.

It is not only spending for stimulus but having savings in your bank account to see you thru the hard times. Remember the fable of the grasshopper and the ants. Instead of bringing the debt down, Bush did tax cuts in the good times to get reelected, drained the savings account and built up a $5 trill debt. Very irresponsible "grasshopper" govt.

Cali and Greece did the same thing. During and as part of the good times they were borrowing into debt which left no savings or leverage for stimulus in the bad times. This left them with austerity which is the Rep solution also, and is making their econs and debt worse. Very hard on the 47% but not so on the rich. If anything the rich can expliot an buy up the cheap, foreclosed properties.

QE3 and low interest are passive monetary measures that don't contribute to the debt. Any threat of inflation can be easily handled by a competent Fed Chairman.

 

[WillowTree]

Does anyone here think that the people who voted for Obama have any knowledge of this issue.
They watch MSNBC who pushes Obama on their viewers.So they go out and vote for Obama.

eggxactly, Americans are going to suffer the next four years and they deserve to suffer. No sympathy here. None.