Was the US Constitution doomed from the start?

[dcraelin]

The absurdity continues...

Believing the government IS the American people, is beyond absurd and approaching psychotic.

The Federalist Papers explained the meaning of the Constitution and is regularly referred to as proof of the Founder's intentions. It was used to convince the sovereign states to ratify the Constitution. Too bad you don't know this.

At least you agree that government by elite, is what you prefer. Me...I prefer liberty.

No, you don't prefer liberty. If you preferred liberty you would be living in hut somewhere without internet access, so you wouldn't be on-line here. You like talking about liberty and taking advantage of all of the amenities society provides.

Yeah because if not for big unlimited government run by a small elite, we would all be serfs. You really are psychotic.

and most confused. Government is not society. They are two very different things.

You live in a complete fantasy world. Luckily, you live in a society where you can do that without fear. Enjoy it. However, if you really want to give your fantasy a shot, I would suggest Somalia. I understand they have practically no central government at all. A true libertarian paradise.

You will find no one more pro-American than me, but unlike you, I am in the true sense. Anyone who believes our big unlimited government is acceptable, as you do, is entirely ANTI-AMERICAN.

I repeat, you live in a complete fantasy world. This is a republic. A representative democracy. If that is not to your liking, by all means feel free to go be pro-somewhere else. No one is holding a gun to your head.

What we need is more PUBLIC int he Republic.....a national initiative option such as the Swiss have would help bypass the crooks in DC>

 

[gipper]

By design, Madison wanted a Constitution that allowed for slow and incremental change, so that change was never radical. He knew it would be overburdened with big bureaucracy, but as he said, "If men were Angels there would be no need for Government". Or something like that.

The problem with Madison's thinking is our government today is far from angelic....in fact, it is the opposite.
Government run by devils, is not the solution. It is the problem.

 

[PratchettFan]

By design, Madison wanted a Constitution that allowed for slow and incremental change, so that change was never radical. He knew it would be overburdened with big bureaucracy, but as he said, "If men were Angels there would be no need for Government". Or something like that.

The problem with Madison's thinking is our government today is far from angelic...

That was as true then as it is now, which was Madison's point.

in fact, it is the opposite.
Government run by devils, is not the solution. It is the problem.

I don't disagree. Government is a huge problem, because not only have its members far exceeded its intended scope and influence, but it's now a scam where - regardless of one's political affiliation - both parties seem exclusively concerned about doing anything in they can to maintain their own scope of power and influence.

And then there is the fact that 530+ elected morons hold the purse strings for what literally amounts to trillions of dollars.

“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” Winston Churchill

 

[gipper]

By design, Madison wanted a Constitution that allowed for slow and incremental change, so that change was never radical. He knew it would be overburdened with big bureaucracy, but as he said, "If men were Angels there would be no need for Government". Or something like that.

The problem with Madison's thinking is our government today is far from angelic...

That was as true then as it is now, which was Madison's point.

in fact, it is the opposite.
Government run by devils, is not the solution. It is the problem.

I don't disagree. Government is a huge problem, because not only have its members far exceeded its intended scope and influence, but it's now a scam where - regardless of one's political affiliation - both parties seem exclusively concerned about doing anything in they can to maintain their own scope of power and influence.

And then there is the fact that 530+ elected morons hold the purse strings for what literally amounts to trillions of dollars.

“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” Winston Churchill

Another good reason for getting rid of government....there are so many reasons I have lost count.

 

[PratchettFan]

By design, Madison wanted a Constitution that allowed for slow and incremental change, so that change was never radical. He knew it would be overburdened with big bureaucracy, but as he said, "If men were Angels there would be no need for Government". Or something like that.

The problem with Madison's thinking is our government today is far from angelic...

That was as true then as it is now, which was Madison's point.

in fact, it is the opposite.
Government run by devils, is not the solution. It is the problem.

I don't disagree. Government is a huge problem, because not only have its members far exceeded its intended scope and influence, but it's now a scam where - regardless of one's political affiliation - both parties seem exclusively concerned about doing anything in they can to maintain their own scope of power and influence.

And then there is the fact that 530+ elected morons hold the purse strings for what literally amounts to trillions of dollars.

“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” Winston Churchill

Another good reason for getting rid of government....there are so many reasons I have lost count.

You think that resolves the problem? What then prevents me from just shooting you and taking your house, killing your kids and forcing your wife to become my fifth wife? I guess you could stop me by your neighborhood banding together, setting up some rules people had to live by, maybe selecting a leader and..... well damn, you just created a government.

Your problem isn't government. Your problem is people. If we could just get rid of those pesky people then we could all live in peace.

 

[gipper]

By design, Madison wanted a Constitution that allowed for slow and incremental change, so that change was never radical. He knew it would be overburdened with big bureaucracy, but as he said, "If men were Angels there would be no need for Government". Or something like that.

The problem with Madison's thinking is our government today is far from angelic...

That was as true then as it is now, which was Madison's point.

in fact, it is the opposite.
Government run by devils, is not the solution. It is the problem.

I don't disagree. Government is a huge problem, because not only have its members far exceeded its intended scope and influence, but it's now a scam where - regardless of one's political affiliation - both parties seem exclusively concerned about doing anything in they can to maintain their own scope of power and influence.

And then there is the fact that 530+ elected morons hold the purse strings for what literally amounts to trillions of dollars.

“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” Winston Churchill

Another good reason for getting rid of government....there are so many reasons I have lost count.

You think that resolves the problem? What then prevents me from just shooting you and taking your house, killing your kids and forcing your wife to become my fifth wife? I guess you could stop me by your neighborhood banding together, setting up some rules people had to live by, maybe selecting a leader and..... well damn, you just created a government.

Your problem isn't government. Your problem is people. If we could just get rid of those pesky people then we could all live in peace.

Yeah...government (i.e. people ruled by a small elite) is the solution....




...but only if you ignore its long history of failure.

 

[PratchettFan]

The problem with Madison's thinking is our government today is far from angelic...

That was as true then as it is now, which was Madison's point.

in fact, it is the opposite.
Government run by devils, is not the solution. It is the problem.

I don't disagree. Government is a huge problem, because not only have its members far exceeded its intended scope and influence, but it's now a scam where - regardless of one's political affiliation - both parties seem exclusively concerned about doing anything in they can to maintain their own scope of power and influence.

And then there is the fact that 530+ elected morons hold the purse strings for what literally amounts to trillions of dollars.

“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” Winston Churchill

Another good reason for getting rid of government....there are so many reasons I have lost count.

You think that resolves the problem? What then prevents me from just shooting you and taking your house, killing your kids and forcing your wife to become my fifth wife? I guess you could stop me by your neighborhood banding together, setting up some rules people had to live by, maybe selecting a leader and..... well damn, you just created a government.

Your problem isn't government. Your problem is people. If we could just get rid of those pesky people then we could all live in peace.

Yeah...government (i.e. people ruled by a small elite) is the solution....




...but only if you ignore its long history of failure.

How do you define failure?

 

[gipper]

That was as true then as it is now, which was Madison's point.

I don't disagree. Government is a huge problem, because not only have its members far exceeded its intended scope and influence, but it's now a scam where - regardless of one's political affiliation - both parties seem exclusively concerned about doing anything in they can to maintain their own scope of power and influence.

And then there is the fact that 530+ elected morons hold the purse strings for what literally amounts to trillions of dollars.

“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” Winston Churchill

Another good reason for getting rid of government....there are so many reasons I have lost count.

You think that resolves the problem? What then prevents me from just shooting you and taking your house, killing your kids and forcing your wife to become my fifth wife? I guess you could stop me by your neighborhood banding together, setting up some rules people had to live by, maybe selecting a leader and..... well damn, you just created a government.

Your problem isn't government. Your problem is people. If we could just get rid of those pesky people then we could all live in peace.

Yeah...government (i.e. people ruled by a small elite) is the solution....




...but only if you ignore its long history of failure.

How do you define failure?

How do you define success?

 

[PratchettFan]

“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” Winston Churchill

Another good reason for getting rid of government....there are so many reasons I have lost count.

You think that resolves the problem? What then prevents me from just shooting you and taking your house, killing your kids and forcing your wife to become my fifth wife? I guess you could stop me by your neighborhood banding together, setting up some rules people had to live by, maybe selecting a leader and..... well damn, you just created a government.

Your problem isn't government. Your problem is people. If we could just get rid of those pesky people then we could all live in peace.

Yeah...government (i.e. people ruled by a small elite) is the solution....




...but only if you ignore its long history of failure.

How do you define failure?

How do you define success?

People not starving, people and goods moving, population reasonably well educated, no huge shanty towns next to mansions surrounded by armed guards. How do you define failure?

 

[gipper]

Another good reason for getting rid of government....there are so many reasons I have lost count.

You think that resolves the problem? What then prevents me from just shooting you and taking your house, killing your kids and forcing your wife to become my fifth wife? I guess you could stop me by your neighborhood banding together, setting up some rules people had to live by, maybe selecting a leader and..... well damn, you just created a government.

Your problem isn't government. Your problem is people. If we could just get rid of those pesky people then we could all live in peace.

Yeah...government (i.e. people ruled by a small elite) is the solution....




...but only if you ignore its long history of failure.

How do you define failure?

How do you define success?

People not starving, people and goods moving, population reasonably well educated, no huge shanty towns next to mansions surrounded by armed guards. How do you define failure?

Oh brother...you really believe we need a huge uncontrolled gov for those things to exist....oh.....the statist have brainwashed many....

 

[PratchettFan]

You think that resolves the problem? What then prevents me from just shooting you and taking your house, killing your kids and forcing your wife to become my fifth wife? I guess you could stop me by your neighborhood banding together, setting up some rules people had to live by, maybe selecting a leader and..... well damn, you just created a government.

Your problem isn't government. Your problem is people. If we could just get rid of those pesky people then we could all live in peace.

Yeah...government (i.e. people ruled by a small elite) is the solution....




...but only if you ignore its long history of failure.

How do you define failure?

How do you define success?

People not starving, people and goods moving, population reasonably well educated, no huge shanty towns next to mansions surrounded by armed guards. How do you define failure?

Oh brother...you really believe we need a huge uncontrolled gov for those things to exist....oh.....the statist have brainwashed many....

So you can't define failure then? Why am I not surprised? Let's try this another way. Name me one human society which you deemed successful in all of recorded history, just one, which did not have a government. You should be able to do that since you have claimed history proves you correct.

 

[gipper]

Yeah...government (i.e. people ruled by a small elite) is the solution....




...but only if you ignore its long history of failure.

How do you define failure?

How do you define success?

People not starving, people and goods moving, population reasonably well educated, no huge shanty towns next to mansions surrounded by armed guards. How do you define failure?

Oh brother...you really believe we need a huge uncontrolled gov for those things to exist....oh.....the statist have brainwashed many....

So you can't define failure then? Why am I not surprised? Let's try this another way. Name me one human society which you deemed successful in all of recorded history, just one, which did not have a government. You should be able to do that since you have claimed history proves you correct.

Big centralized unlimited government run by a small elite equals FAILURE. How could you have missed this fundamental fact? Read some history...its all there.

So...since humans have ALWAYS suffered under tyrannical governments, government must be the solution...that is your answer?

 

[regent]

At one time government was used by the nobles, kings, church and business for their benefit, but with our Constitution that use is slowly becoming history. Today, we use government for the benefit of more citizens and I predict government will grow even larger and the American people will ask government to do even more in the future.
That is our history.

 

[PratchettFan]

How do you define failure?

How do you define success?

People not starving, people and goods moving, population reasonably well educated, no huge shanty towns next to mansions surrounded by armed guards. How do you define failure?

Oh brother...you really believe we need a huge uncontrolled gov for those things to exist....oh.....the statist have brainwashed many....

So you can't define failure then? Why am I not surprised? Let's try this another way. Name me one human society which you deemed successful in all of recorded history, just one, which did not have a government. You should be able to do that since you have claimed history proves you correct.

Big centralized unlimited government run by a small elite equals FAILURE. How could you have missed this fundamental fact? Read some history...its all there.

So...since humans have ALWAYS suffered under tyrannical governments, government must be the solution...that is your answer?

So you can't define what you mean by failure. You can't point to any examples in history which indicate you are correct. All government is a failure because..... you say so. Well, I have read history and you are in fantasy land.

 

[NYcarbineer]

This is one of those questions I've been struggling with for a while. It seems like the nation we are today is so far removed from the one the founding fathers envisioned that; I can only fault the document itself.
Am I the only one who would dare think they may have gotten it wrong?

To believe that the founders' vision for the country was and is sacrosanct is to believe that the nation, indeed, humanity, would be incapable of advancing from the 18th century.

 

[Vastator]

Or perhaps the document, was ill prepared for the unprecedented rate of change past the 18th century.

 

[regent]

The framers made no provisions in the Constitution for political parties, they believed the many factions would cancel each other out; therefore made no mention of political parties. Ironically it was the ratification of the Constitution that created the beginning of the parties. That may have been one of the errors of the framers?

 

[gipper]

This is one of those questions I've been struggling with for a while. It seems like the nation we are today is so far removed from the one the founding fathers envisioned that; I can only fault the document itself.
Am I the only one who would dare think they may have gotten it wrong?

To believe that the founders' vision for the country was and is sacrosanct is to believe that the nation, indeed, humanity, would be incapable of advancing from the 18th century.

If you think what our gov is today, is advancement. Then you are incapable of thinking.

 

[NYcarbineer]

This is one of those questions I've been struggling with for a while. It seems like the nation we are today is so far removed from the one the founding fathers envisioned that; I can only fault the document itself.
Am I the only one who would dare think they may have gotten it wrong?

To believe that the founders' vision for the country was and is sacrosanct is to believe that the nation, indeed, humanity, would be incapable of advancing from the 18th century.

If you think what our gov is today, is advancement. Then you are incapable of thinking.

boohoo

 

[gipper]

This is one of those questions I've been struggling with for a while. It seems like the nation we are today is so far removed from the one the founding fathers envisioned that; I can only fault the document itself.
Am I the only one who would dare think they may have gotten it wrong?

To believe that the founders' vision for the country was and is sacrosanct is to believe that the nation, indeed, humanity, would be incapable of advancing from the 18th century.

If you think what our gov is today, is advancement. Then you are incapable of thinking.

boohoo

Thank you for your intelligent discourse.