US authorities should keep their hands from my bank data !

[germanguy]

The European Ministers of Interior will today vote about an agreement, which will give US authorities unlimited access to the banking data of the SWIFT.

What makes me angry about it ?

Via SWIFT most of the world-wide and inter-european money transfer from bank to bank are handled. As American Law Enforcement authorities took these data, when the SWIFT server was based in the US, SWIFT decided to move this server to Belgium.
Now the european banking traffic goes via this server, which is inacceptable to the US, as they claim this data as important for the War on Terror.

The European Interior Ministers will today decide, as the US demanded an formal agreement, if US Authorities will get unlimited access to these data and allowance to store them for a minimum of five years.

I personally refuse this agreement totally.

There are no safeguards whatsoever how long and to what purpose these data are used by the US.

What do these data contain ?

At minimum the name of the person or company who transfers money, the receiver, the amount, the date and the purpose of the transfer.

If connected with other data, it pretty much gives the US a picture which person and even worse which company pays what for which purpose within the European Union.
So these data can not only be used for the search for terror suspects, but also for industrial espionage.

As we do not get any safeguard against misuse, I strongly reject the whole idea.

I simply do not want any Law Enforcement Agency sniffing around in any data without a search warrant or being informed.

So, as I doubt the US would give European Law Enforcement Agencies the same rights to sniff around in the banking details of US citizens, I am really furious about this.

regards
ze germanguy

 

[The Rabbi]

But you live with a government which represents the will of the people. How can you be against the will of the people??
Besides, if you have nothing to hide then it isn't a problem. Right??

 

[germanguy]

But you live with a government which represents the will of the people. How can you be against the will of the people??
Besides, if you have nothing to hide then it isn't a problem. Right??

So, if you have nothing to hide either, you certainly welcome any search of your private property without any warrant. This is the most stupid remark I know.
With that sentence anything can be justified.
You are against the Patriot act ? Aren´t you a patriot ?
You are against our anti-terror laws ? So you support terror ?
This kind of logic justifies any restriction of citizen rights.

No, the problem is that it is not my government sniffing around in my banking data, but a foreign government. In Germany I can let this control by a court or even sue my government for ignoring my basic rights. But in this case no german court can be adressed. And a US court neither, as they are not responsible.
So, in this case all sides found a nice way to bypass my constitutional rights and this I do not like.

Imagine your government would hand out your private data to Germany or Spain, without any justification, supervision or control by a US court. And in case the Germans find something interesting, US agencies will thankfully use it. But as the source is not under US jurisdiction you can neither counter check or even question it.

So, under the umbrella of the War against Terror again our rights are restricted.
I see this not as progress.

regards
ze germanguy

 

[California Girl]

But you live with a government which represents the will of the people. How can you be against the will of the people??
Besides, if you have nothing to hide then it isn't a problem. Right??

So, if you have nothing to hide either, you certainly welcome any search of your private property without any warrant. This is the most stupid remark I know.
With that sentence anything can be justified.
You are against the Patriot act ? Aren´t you a patriot ?
You are against our anti-terror laws ? So you support terror ?
This kind of logic justifies any restriction of citizen rights.

No, the problem is that it is not my government sniffing around in my banking data, but a foreign government. In Germany I can let this control by a court or even sue my government for ignoring my basic rights. But in this case no german court can be adressed. And a US court neither, as they are not responsible.
So, in this case all sides found a nice way to bypass my constitutional rights and this I do not like.

Imagine your government would hand out your private data to Germany or Spain, without any justification, supervision or control by a US court. And in case the Germans find something interesting, US agencies will thankfully use it. But as the source is not under US jurisdiction you can neither counter check or even question it.

So, under the umbrella of the War against Terror again our rights are restricted.
I see this not as progress.

regards
ze germanguy

Welcome to the New World Order, German Guy.

Since living in the UK, I can't beleive the number of times I have heard Brits say 'if you have nothing to hide, what's the problem'. They may not see the problem, but I guess they are so used to their government telling them what do to that they are quickly losing the ability to think for themselves.

I'm hoping to live in Germnay in a couple of years time.... It's an interesting country I think.... I just wish Europeans generally were a little less accepting of their governments trampling over their citizens.

 

[germanguy]

But you live with a government which represents the will of the people. How can you be against the will of the people??
Besides, if you have nothing to hide then it isn't a problem. Right??

So, if you have nothing to hide either, you certainly welcome any search of your private property without any warrant. This is the most stupid remark I know.
With that sentence anything can be justified.
You are against the Patriot act ? Aren´t you a patriot ?
You are against our anti-terror laws ? So you support terror ?
This kind of logic justifies any restriction of citizen rights.

No, the problem is that it is not my government sniffing around in my banking data, but a foreign government. In Germany I can let this control by a court or even sue my government for ignoring my basic rights. But in this case no german court can be adressed. And a US court neither, as they are not responsible.
So, in this case all sides found a nice way to bypass my constitutional rights and this I do not like.

Imagine your government would hand out your private data to Germany or Spain, without any justification, supervision or control by a US court. And in case the Germans find something interesting, US agencies will thankfully use it. But as the source is not under US jurisdiction you can neither counter check or even question it.

So, under the umbrella of the War against Terror again our rights are restricted.
I see this not as progress.

regards
ze germanguy

Welcome to the New World Order, German Guy.

Since living in the UK, I can't beleive the number of times I have heard Brits say 'if you have nothing to hide, what's the problem'. They may not see the problem, but I guess they are so used to their government telling them what do to that they are quickly losing the ability to think for themselves.

I'm hoping to live in Germnay in a couple of years time.... It's an interesting country I think.... I just wish Europeans generally were a little less accepting of their governments trampling over their citizens.

Be welcome - already any idea where in Germany ?

Go to the Rhine Area ! The very heart of Europe...

regards
ze germanguy

 

[Diuretic]

GG it could be that the authorities are using some sort of algorithm to look for patterns of movement in money that may suggest terrorist operations. I don't meant to be patronising but terrorism requires accountants as well as bomb-makers.

 

[Diuretic]

With you on the Rhine area, my favourite town when I visited there some years ago was Sankt Goar, really pretty, interesting castle too.

 

[The Rabbi]

But you live with a government which represents the will of the people. How can you be against the will of the people??
Besides, if you have nothing to hide then it isn't a problem. Right??

So, if you have nothing to hide either, you certainly welcome any search of your private property without any warrant. This is the most stupid remark I know.
With that sentence anything can be justified.
You are against the Patriot act ? Aren´t you a patriot ?
You are against our anti-terror laws ? So you support terror ?
This kind of logic justifies any restriction of citizen rights.

No, the problem is that it is not my government sniffing around in my banking data, but a foreign government. In Germany I can let this control by a court or even sue my government for ignoring my basic rights. But in this case no german court can be adressed. And a US court neither, as they are not responsible.
So, in this case all sides found a nice way to bypass my constitutional rights and this I do not like.

Imagine your government would hand out your private data to Germany or Spain, without any justification, supervision or control by a US court. And in case the Germans find something interesting, US agencies will thankfully use it. But as the source is not under US jurisdiction you can neither counter check or even question it.

So, under the umbrella of the War against Terror again our rights are restricted.
I see this not as progress.

regards
ze germanguy

OK so now you might be getting the idea of the difference between a citizen and a subject. Citizens have rights they defend, including the right to keep and bear arms. The state is not simply the will of the people but an entity to itself, with a desire for ever more power over its citizens, in the name of keeping them safe.
This is why we have a Second Amendment in our country, along with a bill of rights. Every infringement on other rights began with restrictions on firearm ownership. This is simply a fact.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Terrorism. Uh huh. What they're really looking for are U.S. citizens trying to protect their money from the U.S. government's over-taxation. Any European should be upset about this blatant violation of their liberty and right to privacy by a government that does not represent them.

 

[germanguy]

But you live with a government which represents the will of the people. How can you be against the will of the people??
Besides, if you have nothing to hide then it isn't a problem. Right??

So, if you have nothing to hide either, you certainly welcome any search of your private property without any warrant. This is the most stupid remark I know.
With that sentence anything can be justified.
You are against the Patriot act ? Aren´t you a patriot ?
You are against our anti-terror laws ? So you support terror ?
This kind of logic justifies any restriction of citizen rights.

No, the problem is that it is not my government sniffing around in my banking data, but a foreign government. In Germany I can let this control by a court or even sue my government for ignoring my basic rights. But in this case no german court can be adressed. And a US court neither, as they are not responsible.
So, in this case all sides found a nice way to bypass my constitutional rights and this I do not like.

Imagine your government would hand out your private data to Germany or Spain, without any justification, supervision or control by a US court. And in case the Germans find something interesting, US agencies will thankfully use it. But as the source is not under US jurisdiction you can neither counter check or even question it.

So, under the umbrella of the War against Terror again our rights are restricted.
I see this not as progress.

regards
ze germanguy

OK so now you might be getting the idea of the difference between a citizen and a subject. Citizens have rights they defend, including the right to keep and bear arms. The state is not simply the will of the people but an entity to itself, with a desire for ever more power over its citizens, in the name of keeping them safe.
This is why we have a Second Amendment in our country, along with a bill of rights. Every infringement on other rights began with restrictions on firearm ownership. This is simply a fact.

ROFL - who shall I shoot now ?

No, I will do what I ever do: I will claim, that my constitutional rights are inflicted.
And I will squeeze with others my MEP in Brussels. In nine month time, the European Parliament will have to approve this agreement and then we will see.

And:
Any restriction of constitutional rights began, when we - the citizens - were talked into fear of a supposed external threat. In the 50s, 60s and 70s it were "the communists", now "the Islam" or "the terrorists" are the ones we have to be afraid of.
So, just to protect us, our rights and even worse the ideals we should stand for are slowly taken away from us.
Just have a look what kind of restrictions the governments after 9/11 have installed.

I can not see, that your precious 2nd amendment has prevented anything from these.

But it is all to protect us.

regards
ze germanguy

 

[germanguy]

With you on the Rhine area, my favourite town when I visited there some years ago was Sankt Goar, really pretty, interesting castle too.

I live more north of it, close to Duesseldorf (250 km away from St Goar). but I think this region is the best in Europe to live (apart from the weather). Amsterdam, Brussels 2hrs away, Paris 3,5 by train, lot´s of different towns and people and very vivant.
But St Goar and the whole area around it is much more beautiful - Rhine Romantics etc.
Good place to visit.
So, come and visit my country. We still have a kind of a marketing problem as a tourist destination, but the whole country is much more than cuckoo-clocks, leather-trousers and beer-festivals. And most people speak english, well - kind of.

regards
ze germanguy

 

[Si modo]

Whether they have the authority or not, it will likely still happen and it's not just the US, GG. The French and British are pretty good at counter-terrorism intel.

 

[editec]

Welcome to the one world international government, Germanguy.

Get used to living in a glass house.

You government, and mine too, are basically tools of the masters.

 

[The Rabbi]

So, if you have nothing to hide either, you certainly welcome any search of your private property without any warrant. This is the most stupid remark I know.
With that sentence anything can be justified.
You are against the Patriot act ? Aren´t you a patriot ?
You are against our anti-terror laws ? So you support terror ?
This kind of logic justifies any restriction of citizen rights.

No, the problem is that it is not my government sniffing around in my banking data, but a foreign government. In Germany I can let this control by a court or even sue my government for ignoring my basic rights. But in this case no german court can be adressed. And a US court neither, as they are not responsible.
So, in this case all sides found a nice way to bypass my constitutional rights and this I do not like.

Imagine your government would hand out your private data to Germany or Spain, without any justification, supervision or control by a US court. And in case the Germans find something interesting, US agencies will thankfully use it. But as the source is not under US jurisdiction you can neither counter check or even question it.

So, under the umbrella of the War against Terror again our rights are restricted.
I see this not as progress.

regards
ze germanguy

OK so now you might be getting the idea of the difference between a citizen and a subject. Citizens have rights they defend, including the right to keep and bear arms. The state is not simply the will of the people but an entity to itself, with a desire for ever more power over its citizens, in the name of keeping them safe.
This is why we have a Second Amendment in our country, along with a bill of rights. Every infringement on other rights began with restrictions on firearm ownership. This is simply a fact.

ROFL - who shall I shoot now ?

No, I will do what I ever do: I will claim, that my constitutional rights are inflicted.
And I will squeeze with others my MEP in Brussels. In nine month time, the European Parliament will have to approve this agreement and then we will see.

And:
Any restriction of constitutional rights began, when we - the citizens - were talked into fear of a supposed external threat. In the 50s, 60s and 70s it were "the communists", now "the Islam" or "the terrorists" are the ones we have to be afraid of.
So, just to protect us, our rights and even worse the ideals we should stand for are slowly taken away from us.
Just have a look what kind of restrictions the governments after 9/11 have installed.

I can not see, that your precious 2nd amendment has prevented anything from these.

But it is all to protect us.

regards
ze germanguy

Do you have more rights or fewer rights than American citizens? It would seem many fewer, in spite of the fact that Germany was not attacked on 9/11.

 

[mightypeon]

Good question on who has more rights.
On top of my hat: Stuff you can do in the States but not in Germany:
1: Deny the Holocaust
2: Much more freedom in insulting others
3: Buy shitloads of weapons
4: Not be drafted.
Stuff you can do in Germany but not in the states:
1: Prostituion
2: Abortions (not in all cases, but certainly more liberal than in the US)
3: Not get into Jail for minor drug offenses
4: Not be totally brutalized by the police (they can be brutal, but Germany had 1 casulty due to police brutality in the last decade, the US a fair bit more).
5: You can move into Germany without having you Hard drive inspected (I mean, wtf! Do they suspect to find a "My Plans for new Terror Attack" folder?)
6: Become Bundeskanzler without beeing Born in Germany (Zats ze Theory!)
7: Not be killed by the state

No matter what, the German state does not have the right to kill its citizens, which I think is a distinct and severe difference from the US. On the other hand, young US men do not have to suffer 9 months of basically forced labour in the army.
On hindsight, Id rather not be killed than not be drafted

 

[The Rabbi]

You are factually wrong.
In Nevada (some counties) there is legal prostitution. You can get an abortion in all 50 states. In some locales there is virtual legalization of minor drug possession. There is no locale where police brutality is not a crime. You can become Bundeskanzler in the US as well without being born here. Obviously you can become president now too! Many states do not have a death penalty.

 

[uscitizen]

Is money private property or property of the government?

 

[The Rabbi]

Is money private property or property of the government?

Would appear to be private property. Why?

 

[uscitizen]

Is money private property or property of the government?

Would appear to be private property. Why?

then why is it illegal to deface it and such?

 

[germanguy]

Is money private property or property of the government?

Would appear to be private property. Why?

then why is it illegal to deface it and such?

According to the ECB, you can pretty much do what you want with your money.
But if damaged by yourself, you can not claim extra expense.

If you change the note by any means as to falsify it, this would be a crime.

I do not know what the law is in the US, but it should be pretty much the same.

regards
ze germanguy