Unions to make a come back in America

[Intense]

Do you know anything about the time before the unions?

Unions as such aren't the problem. Unions that have become greedy, told the rest of their fellow-workers to fuck off, and forgot what the point of the union is supposed to be in the first place, instead turning the union into a tool for self-defeating class warfare- therein lies the problem

The repair is in Labor Laws that are fair minded, and effect each of us. Union's effect themselves , usually at someone else's expense. Union's support an Ideal in direct conflict with Federalism, Life, Liberty, the Defense of Property, and The Pursuit of Happiness.

1)The unions were a driving force in getting labour laws passed

2)who can afford to give congress more money: the owner of the company or the wage-labourer? That's a big part of why it was so hard and took so long to get good labour laws passed. Hence it was necessary to win in the factory and with the boss himself. That's where collective bargaining and strikes came into play. You seem ignorant to the history of the labour movement.

3)Federalism was a stepping stone to authoritarianism

4)Life? You mean like requiring that mines be reinforced to prevent cave-ins? liberty? You mean wages above subsistence and the 8-hr work day? Defense of property? You mean like taking measures to end the practice of the company town and the abuses that came with it? Pursuit of happiness? Compare the condition of the working class today to the days before the unions and the labour movement.

1)The unions were a driving force in getting labour laws passed

That does not change Their Agenda. A means to a different end, forced labor, slavery, mediocrity.

2)who can afford to give congress more money: the owner of the company or the wage-labourer? That's a big part of why it was so hard and took so long to get good labour laws passed. Hence it was necessary to win in the factory and with the boss himself. That's where collective bargaining and strikes came into play. You seem ignorant to the history of the labour movement.

Busting Monopolies and unfair trade practices and laws works too. It is a more direct path, and more transparent.

3)Federalism was a stepping stone to authoritarianism

Wrong, but close. The Corruption of Federalism was the Stepping Stone to the Oligarchy State, another form of Totalitarianism, another Brand. I trace the corruption and betrayal back to Alexander Hamilton, and the National Bank Scheme, where He put Big Money and Big Government together as Co-Conspirators against the People and the State Governments. For him, federalism was a tool to establish an Empire. We have yet to correct that Injustice.

Hamilton: The Constitutionality of the Bank of the United States, 1791

4)Life? You mean like requiring that mines be reinforced to prevent cave-ins? liberty? You mean wages above subsistence and the 8-hr work day? Defense of property? You mean like taking measures to end the practice of the company town and the abuses that came with it? Pursuit of happiness? Compare the condition of the working class today to the days before the unions and the labour movement.

Totally. With the exception of the 8 hour work day. That is either Individual choice or obligation. That is dictated by circumstance. So is Value for Value, and fair compensation. Remove the Monopolies from restricting competition, and that solves as many problems without Union Baggage. What you are not seeing is the Triangle between Government, Management, and Organized Labor. "Meet The New Boss, Same As The Old Boss". The upper hand remains the same. What would genuinely change that, is the Employee's having a stake in the Big Companies, and a voice in those companies through the stake. Win, Win. Government has to find it's way into being a Neutral Referee, rather than a Beneficiary on every side of the equation. To protect against All Enemies, both Foreign and Domestic, includes Predatory Big Business and Government Itself. The Union's don't give a rat's ass about what is fair. They want control and power, and are willing to create any illusion that will advance that goal.

 

[JBeukema]

That does not change Their Agenda. A means to a different end, forced labor, slavery, mediocrity.

Wait, what? The union agenda is forced labour and slavery? You've officially gone off the deep end.

Busting Monopolies and unfair trade practices and laws works too. It is a more direct path, and more transparent.

Again, collective bargaining and the strike came into play before such reforms were accomplished. Getting such sweeping reforms passed is difficult, in large part due to the resources of the capitalist. There are times when you need strikes, there are times when you need collective bargaining. They are all tools to be used in the fight for progress

With the exception of the 8 hour work day. That is either Individual choice or obligation

Do you know anything at all about what things were like before it was passed? mandatory 16-hour days, 7 days per week. Of course, it went hand-in-hand with sustenance pay. It's called exploitation and it's still found elsewhere in the world.

So is Value for Value, and fair compensation

Exactly. Fair compensation. That's what the unions were formed to fight for.

Tell me.. do you believe in free trade?

What would genuinely change that, is the Employee's having a stake in the Big Companies, and a voice in those companies through the stake.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/After-Capitalism-Managerialism-Workplace-Democracy/dp/B000C4T2AI/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1290278469&sr=1-4]Amazon.com: After Capitalism : From Managerialism to Workplace Democracy: Seymour Melman: Books[/ame]

Are you familiar with the Wobbly Shop?

 

[Missourian]

The age of the unions in the U.S. has largely passed. They were victorious. Now they've gotten greedy and many have become largely self-defeating.

The last real battle to be won by the labourer in America is the fight against 'free trade', which undermines all the working class in America has gained

We don't always agree, but you are close to right on the money with this post, although I believe the Unions still have a place in the American dynamic.

You are exactly correct in your assertion that Unions have lost their way by becoming what they opposed...greedy, self serving, power hungry corrupt bureaucracies whose only interest is enriching their members (read stockholders) thereby maximizing their dues (read profits).

Unions would be a far more useful force serving as a counterbalance to big business, pushing back against NAFTA and outsourcing instead of trying to push the insane Check Card policy.

Unions must also shed the "Us versus Them" mindset towards management and non-union labor. That sort of bunker mentality will inevitably lead to Unions being marginalized and eventually completely ostracized.

 

[The T]

Unions are for nothing else but for union DUES. They dont give a shit about the people.

The unions are how this country got to were we are now..... falling behind in the wold and people out of work.

Look at GM. Part of the bail out should have been the stipulation that no union would ever be allowed again.

Public servants should server the public, not the unions.

Do you know anything about the time before the unions?

Unions as such aren't the problem. Unions that have become greedy, told the rest of their fellow-workers to fuck off, and forgot what the point of the union is supposed to be in the first place, instead turning the union into a tool for self-defeating class warfare- therein lies the problem

The repair is in Labor Laws that are fair minded, and effect each of us. Union's effect themselves , usually at someone else's expense. Union's support an Ideal in direct conflict with Federalism, Life, Liberty, the Defense of Property, and The Pursuit of Happiness.

Life, Liberty, Pursuit of happiness is supposed to an individual endeavour based upon the merit of the individual...for government to protect. Not a socialistic group think endeavour as now practiced by that very same government was tasked to protect by the Constitution.

Unions have for all intents turned it around...for their own agrandizement under the guise of 'rights' real or imagined. Not unlike present Government...especially when both are working in concert to destroy the basics of that tenant that launched the greatest country ever on the face of the Earth for the freedom of mankind.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Public servants get about 11 paid holidays, matching retirement funds, excellent hc, up to 4 weeks paid vacation every year, two additional weeks of sick leave retire on their high three salary, and the list goes on. They can't have it any better. Unions are a huge reason why we're in such a mess. Damn, some of you really are commies.

 

[Missourian]

Public servants get about 11 paid holidays, matching retirement funds, excellent hc, up to 4 weeks paid vacation every year, two additional weeks of sick leave retire on their high three salary, and the list goes on. They can't have it any better. Unions are a huge reason why we're in such a mess. Damn, some of you really are commies.

You're missing the point.

If all labor wages were left completely to free-market principles, what would happen to wages right now, with 14% real unemployment?

 

[The T]

Public servants get about 11 paid holidays, matching retirement funds, excellent hc, up to 4 weeks paid vacation every year, two additional weeks of sick leave retire on their high three salary, and the list goes on. They can't have it any better. Unions are a huge reason why we're in such a mess. Damn, some of you really are commies.

And what of everytime the 'Minimum wage' goes up...it's back to the bagaining table with companies and Unions to reflect the increase?

Can't have non-union rubes getting a leg up...eh?

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Public servants get about 11 paid holidays, matching retirement funds, excellent hc, up to 4 weeks paid vacation every year, two additional weeks of sick leave retire on their high three salary, and the list goes on. They can't have it any better. Unions are a huge reason why we're in such a mess. Damn, some of you really are commies.

You're missing the point.

If all labor wages were left completely to free-market principles, what would happen to wages right now, with 14% real unemployment?

No, I get the point. Unions are themselves a self serving entity. Their best interests are not for the members but for themselves as a whole...or survival. They don't produce anything.

 

[The T]

Public servants get about 11 paid holidays, matching retirement funds, excellent hc, up to 4 weeks paid vacation every year, two additional weeks of sick leave retire on their high three salary, and the list goes on. They can't have it any better. Unions are a huge reason why we're in such a mess. Damn, some of you really are commies.

You're missing the point.

If all labor wages were left completely to free-market principles, what would happen to wages right now, with 14% real unemployment?

No, I get the point. Unions are themselves a self serving entity. Their best interests are not for the members but for themselves as a whole...or survival. They don't produce anything.

Not to mention a corporation unto themselves.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Public servants get about 11 paid holidays, matching retirement funds, excellent hc, up to 4 weeks paid vacation every year, two additional weeks of sick leave retire on their high three salary, and the list goes on. They can't have it any better. Unions are a huge reason why we're in such a mess. Damn, some of you really are commies.

And what of everytime the 'Minimum wage' goes up...it's back to the bagaining table with companies and Unions to reflect the increase?

Can't have non-union rubes getting a leg up...eh?

I'm not for unions. Public servants don't need a union because they have it far better than private citizens anyway. It's like a big gravy train. I worked for the Interior before I went into private business for myself.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

You're missing the point.

If all labor wages were left completely to free-market principles, what would happen to wages right now, with 14% real unemployment?

No, I get the point. Unions are themselves a self serving entity. Their best interests are not for the members but for themselves as a whole...or survival. They don't produce anything.

Not to mention a corporation unto themselves.

Exactly

 

[The T]

Public servants get about 11 paid holidays, matching retirement funds, excellent hc, up to 4 weeks paid vacation every year, two additional weeks of sick leave retire on their high three salary, and the list goes on. They can't have it any better. Unions are a huge reason why we're in such a mess. Damn, some of you really are commies.

And what of everytime the 'Minimum wage' goes up...it's back to the bagaining table with companies and Unions to reflect the increase?

Can't have non-union rubes getting a leg up...eh?

I'm not for unions. Public servants don't need a union because they have it far better than private citizens anyway. It's like a big gravy train. I worked for the Interior before I went into private business for myself.

I'm with ya brother. Never fear.

 

[Missourian]

Public servants get about 11 paid holidays, matching retirement funds, excellent hc, up to 4 weeks paid vacation every year, two additional weeks of sick leave retire on their high three salary, and the list goes on. They can't have it any better. Unions are a huge reason why we're in such a mess. Damn, some of you really are commies.

You're missing the point.

If all labor wages were left completely to free-market principles, what would happen to wages right now, with 14% real unemployment?

No, I get the point. Unions are themselves a self serving entity. Their best interests are not for the members but for themselves as a whole...or survival. They don't produce anything.

I agree with you...but you haven't answered my question.

If all labor wages were left completely to free-market principles, what would happen to wages right now, with 14% real unemployment?

 

[Intense]

Public servants get about 11 paid holidays, matching retirement funds, excellent hc, up to 4 weeks paid vacation every year, two additional weeks of sick leave retire on their high three salary, and the list goes on. They can't have it any better. Unions are a huge reason why we're in such a mess. Damn, some of you really are commies.

You're missing the point.

If all labor wages were left completely to free-market principles, what would happen to wages right now, with 14% real unemployment?

Apply that to Government Workers and we are on the road to recovery.

 

[Intense]

You're missing the point.

If all labor wages were left completely to free-market principles, what would happen to wages right now, with 14% real unemployment?

No, I get the point. Unions are themselves a self serving entity. Their best interests are not for the members but for themselves as a whole...or survival. They don't produce anything.

I agree with you...but you haven't answered my question.

If all labor wages were left completely to free-market principles, what would happen to wages right now, with 14% real unemployment?

The newly transplanted would leave. Salaries would be on the same cycles as market prices then too.

 

[loosecannon]

so what, I missed your commentary that sets the debate or are you just reposting news for the benefit of users of usmb.

Perhaps with this bill, the public servants will be able to establish unions to regain workers rights.

God that's the last thing we need. As a Californian I can tell you this is a fateful mistake.

Public employees should be constitutionally banned from collective bargaining.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

You're missing the point.

If all labor wages were left completely to free-market principles, what would happen to wages right now, with 14% real unemployment?

No, I get the point. Unions are themselves a self serving entity. Their best interests are not for the members but for themselves as a whole...or survival. They don't produce anything.

I agree with you...but you haven't answered my question.

If all labor wages were left completely to free-market principles, what would happen to wages right now, with 14% real unemployment?

Trying to think about this, considering we hadn't lost so many to overseas, I would think our unemployment wouldn't be as high. But as you mentioned in another thread, yesteryear's unions ie 50-60's were more in line with the American worker. My dad was union in construction and mining back then and they seemed to work pretty well. But then greed and survival ruined the unions.

 

[loosecannon]

Trying to think about this, considering we hadn't lost so many to overseas, I would think our unemployment wouldn't be as high. But as you mentioned in another thread, yesteryear's unions ie 50-60's were more in line with the American worker. My dad was union in construction and mining back then and they seemed to work pretty well. But then greed and survival ruined the unions.

Unions were a well intended but bad idea.

Every other western industrial nation formed a labor political party instead of relying on unions to lobby the democratic party for representation. In the end business simply can afford to contribute more than organized labor can and laws were passed that prevent solidarity strikes etc.

The unions failed because they didn't form a political party to represent their interests.

 

[mdn2000]

Unions, I ask myself are unions as guilty as the media portrays. Being that I do not trust one word that the media states (fox news included), so why should I go against my instinct and believe Unions are bas simply because that is what politicians state as well as the media.

Did executives that are college educated negotiate contracts without the foresight of the expenses in the future of did all those failed GM products make the difference. How about the Aztec, remember that ugly ass SUV, over a billion dollar lost not counting the projected earnings that would of paid into the Unions.

Or how about that CEO at GM who put billions into robotics and computers, the Japanese scratched their heads stating that even they did not use robotics on such a large scale.

Or what about the billion dollar new headquarters for General Motors, during a time when they are failing they move into a new world headquarters.

How many failed GM products made the Unions the problem.

Remember the god awful looking mini van, it looked like the shuttle from Star Trek on wheels, another failure.

Not to mention regulations, how much money does it cost for the design of airbags, reinforced side doors, extra tail lights, how many safety regulations burden the company.

What about the research to make high mileage cars due to government mandates and regulations.

Tax, Detroit was or is one of the highest taxed Cities in the world. My grandmother paid around five thousand a year in property tax for a home she paid five thousand dollars for back in the 1930's.

So is it true that Unions strong armed every contract or is this more class warfare, thank god I dont have to worry, I just need to vote Republican and they will fix everything, they say so, its true.

Government is the problem, take away the power to tax at a whim, an easy tax, one tax, no fees, no money grubbing by the politicians, and then we can see if Unions are a problem.

We need a union against tax. Too bad unions are not fighting tax.

 

[loosecannon]

We need a union against tax. Too bad unions are not fighting tax.

we have a union against taxation. It is called the No Taxation without Representation Union. Obama is it's president, we hold annual elections and the US Treasury collects the dues.