Unintended consequences

[Bfgrn]

I hear the term "unintended consequences" used quite a bit on this board...

Here are some "unintended consequences" where American soldiers DIED...

AN INTERROGATOR SPEAKS

I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.

Matthew Alexander led an interrogations team assigned to a Special Operations task force in Iraq in 2006.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802242.html

I think it’s just crazy. It's part of that worldview that led us to where we are. Think about it. The United States went and negotiated with and supported Saddam Hussein himself against Iran under this notion that sometimes my enemy is my friend. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. That emboldened Saddam Hussein and allowed him to invade Kuwait. It made us go to war that we did not finish and did not take Saddam Hussein out.
Former Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas) 12/11/06 (The Hill)

 

[editec]

Every action sets off a chain of reactions which then cause still more reactions which end up resonating through the cosmos till the end of time.

Think of the possibilites in a single chess game, then multiply that complexity by infinity times an infinite number of infinites and you're starting to get it.

Of course if might be nice if our leaders throught past the first possible reaction of their actions to the probably outcomes of what they're doing

But I am somewhat sympathetic to the fact that BLOWBACK is just one of those unfortunate facts of life.

 

[Bfgrn]

Every action sets off a chain of reactions which then cause still more reactions which end up resonating through the cosmos till the end of time.

Think of the possibilites in a single chess game, then multiply that complexity by infinity times an infinite number of infinites and you're starting to get it.

Of course if might be nice if our leaders throught past the first possible reaction of their actions to the probably outcomes of what they're doing

But I am somewhat sympathetic to the fact that BLOWBACK is just one of those unfortunate facts of life.

Those fallen soldiers are someone's son, daughter, father, mother, aunt, uncle, cousin or best friend...NOT chess pieces...

 

[WillowTree]

yes right, if only there wasn't an Abu Graib.. but then of course it wasn't in the news when 9-11 happened.. now was it?? They will always give you an excuse for their barbaric acts and you on the left will always apologize for them because you are card carrying members of the BLAME AMERICA FIRST club.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

yes right, if only there wasn't an Abu Graib.. but then of course it wasn't in the news when 9-11 happened.. now was it?? They will always give you an excuse for their barbaric acts and you on the left will always apologize for them because you are card carrying members of the BLAME AMERICA FIRST club.

Who said anything about 9/11? What does 9/11 have to do with Iraq? And why are you accusing a U.S. serviceman of blaming America first? Why don't you get your own little pussy ass over their and interrogate some people?

 

[Bfgrn]

It looks like the "blame America first" club is the 21st century version of the "love it or leave it" club...

 

[Gunny]

I hear the term "unintended consequences" used quite a bit on this board...

Here are some "unintended consequences" where American soldiers DIED...

AN INTERROGATOR SPEAKS

I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.

Matthew Alexander led an interrogations team assigned to a Special Operations task force in Iraq in 2006.

I'm Still Tortured by What I Saw in Iraq - washingtonpost.com

I think it’s just crazy. It's part of that worldview that led us to where we are. Think about it. The United States went and negotiated with and supported Saddam Hussein himself against Iran under this notion that sometimes my enemy is my friend. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. That emboldened Saddam Hussein and allowed him to invade Kuwait. It made us go to war that we did not finish and did not take Saddam Hussein out.
Former Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas) 12/11/06 (The Hill)

Your comment is factually incorrect. The First Gulf War was carried through to completion. It's goal was to remove Iraq's forces from Kuwait. Nothing more.

President Bush had to agree to only removing Iraqi forces from Kuwait and not deposing Saddam in return for unrestricted use of Arab airspace, to use SA as a step-off point, and to get an airfield in SA.

He kept his word. The left dishonestly claimed he "didn't finish the job" until 2003. Then, Bush II goes to "finish the job" and the former accusation disappeared in favor of "illegal war of choice."

Glaringly contradictory rhetoric.

 

[Bfgrn]

I hear the term "unintended consequences" used quite a bit on this board...

Here are some "unintended consequences" where American soldiers DIED...

AN INTERROGATOR SPEAKS

I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.

Matthew Alexander led an interrogations team assigned to a Special Operations task force in Iraq in 2006.

I'm Still Tortured by What I Saw in Iraq - washingtonpost.com

I think it’s just crazy. It's part of that worldview that led us to where we are. Think about it. The United States went and negotiated with and supported Saddam Hussein himself against Iran under this notion that sometimes my enemy is my friend. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. That emboldened Saddam Hussein and allowed him to invade Kuwait. It made us go to war that we did not finish and did not take Saddam Hussein out.
Former Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas) 12/11/06 (The Hill)

Your comment is factually incorrect. The First Gulf War was carried through to completion. It's goal was to remove Iraq's forces from Kuwait. Nothing more.

President Bush had to agree to only removing Iraqi forces from Kuwait and not deposing Saddam in return for unrestricted use of Arab airspace, to use SA as a step-off point, and to get an airfield in SA.

He kept his word. The left dishonestly claimed he "didn't finish the job" until 2003. Then, Bush II goes to "finish the job" and the former accusation disappeared in favor of "illegal war of choice."

Glaringly contradictory rhetoric.

WOW Gunny, now THIS is news...

Tom DeLay joins leftists...

 

[Iriemon]

I don't know if anyone is a member of the BLAME AMERICA FIRST club, but I personally am a member of the BLAME BUSH FIRST club. It was his administration that rushed the nation to an unnecessary and mistaken war and, as we are learning now, authorized the torture and dentainment procedures that fueled our enemies with recuits.

 

[WillowTree]

yes right, if only there wasn't an Abu Graib.. but then of course it wasn't in the news when 9-11 happened.. now was it?? They will always give you an excuse for their barbaric acts and you on the left will always apologize for them because you are card carrying members of the BLAME AMERICA FIRST club.

Who said anything about 9/11? What does 9/11 have to do with Iraq? And why are you accusing a U.S. serviceman of blaming America first? Why don't you get your own little pussy ass over their and interrogate some people?

we were talking of unintended consequences and reason why they attack us.. Abu Garib wasn't in the news prior to 9-11 was it?

 

[Bfgrn]

yes right, if only there wasn't an Abu Graib.. but then of course it wasn't in the news when 9-11 happened.. now was it?? They will always give you an excuse for their barbaric acts and you on the left will always apologize for them because you are card carrying members of the BLAME AMERICA FIRST club.

Who said anything about 9/11? What does 9/11 have to do with Iraq? And why are you accusing a U.S. serviceman of blaming America first? Why don't you get your own little pussy ass over their and interrogate some people?

we were talking of unintended consequences and reason why they attack us.. Abu Garib wasn't in the news prior to 9-11 was it?

How could it, it happened after 9/11?

 

[Gurdari]

Those fallen soldiers are someone's son, daughter, father, mother, aunt, uncle, cousin or best friend...NOT chess pieces...

They are certainly used like chess pieces, unfortunately.

Some people need to get rich, and if some poor strangers die somewhere far away as part of that plan - I doubt that's a big concern of theirs. This is not something new, however... it's usually the poor who die to help the powerful get or maintain power and wealth. You don't expect people with a lot to lose to get up and do the dirty work, do you? That's for them po' folks without any real career options... now if only there was a way to limit people's options in society, if they had less hope of making the life they want ...well you just might find your military enrollment goes up. And *wow* you end up with a big army looking for a fight. Used only for noble reasons, of course.

*** Not that I think anyone would use violence to become rich/powerful, just musing.

 

[Gurdari]

I think it’s just crazy. It's part of that worldview that led us to where we are. Think about it. The United States went and negotiated with and supported Saddam Hussein himself against Iran under this notion that sometimes my enemy is my friend. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. That emboldened Saddam Hussein and allowed him to invade Kuwait. It made us go to war that we did not finish and did not take Saddam Hussein out.
Former Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas) 12/11/06 (The Hill)

Oh, Tom Delay, so interesting in his viewpoint. We told Saddam we didn't care if he invaded Kuwait (who was breaking the law by slant drilling into Iraq's side of that particluar oil field) and we certainly didn't care about the Iraqi democratic movement, or any of Saddam's poor citizenry. We supported Iran first... until they went crazy and wanted to run their own country, that is too uppity for a client state. Goo dthing we sent a message. Too bad it backfired.

Good thing we suddenly became humanists under GWB.

 

[code1211]

Every action sets off a chain of reactions which then cause still more reactions which end up resonating through the cosmos till the end of time.

Think of the possibilites in a single chess game, then multiply that complexity by infinity times an infinite number of infinites and you're starting to get it.

Of course if might be nice if our leaders throught past the first possible reaction of their actions to the probably outcomes of what they're doing

But I am somewhat sympathetic to the fact that BLOWBACK is just one of those unfortunate facts of life.

Those fallen soldiers are someone's son, daughter, father, mother, aunt, uncle, cousin or best friend...NOT chess pieces...

I am so sick to death of hearing that victims are at fault for the actions of the criminal. The fanatical anti-Jew, anti-Christian Moslems are not reacting to something that has been done to them. They are the unknowing dupes of those that horde the riches of the natural resources of the Middle East and do so by the conspiritorially directing of all frustrations toward the Jews in Isreal and the powers of the West.

The blaming of others for your own problems is a weak way to live and that is exactly what those too lazy to effect change do. Don't like your life? Then either change it or learn to love it.

Throughout the nineties, the radical Moslems were attacking the West. For the history challenged, the 90's happened before 9/11. So did the Iranian hostage taking. So did all of the Middle Eastern wars. The borders were drawn by Churchill and it wasn't fair. For the love of God, get over it.

If all you strive to do is get even, you'll never get ahead.

 

[code1211]

I don't know if anyone is a member of the BLAME AMERICA FIRST club, but I personally am a member of the BLAME BUSH FIRST club. It was his administration that rushed the nation to an unnecessary and mistaken war and, as we are learning now, authorized the torture and dentainment procedures that fueled our enemies with recuits.

I would guess that the innaccurate news stories depicting the urination on the Koran had a better recruiting result than did the Candid Camera operation.

What exactly did the Bush Administration do that made the Radicals saw the heads off the journalists?

By the standards of the barbarians we are trying to round up, our methods of torture are hardly worse than a bath.

 

[Bfgrn]

I don't know if anyone is a member of the BLAME AMERICA FIRST club, but I personally am a member of the BLAME BUSH FIRST club. It was his administration that rushed the nation to an unnecessary and mistaken war and, as we are learning now, authorized the torture and dentainment procedures that fueled our enemies with recuits.

I would guess that the innaccurate news stories depicting the urination on the Koran had a better recruiting result than did the Candid Camera operation.

What exactly did the Bush Administration do that made the Radicals saw the heads off the journalists?

By the standards of the barbarians we are trying to round up, our methods of torture are hardly worse than a bath.

Do you need someone to read this to you?

AN INTERROGATOR SPEAKS

I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.

Matthew Alexander led an interrogations team assigned to a Special Operations task force in Iraq in 2006.

I'm Still Tortured by What I Saw in Iraq - washingtonpost.com