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bush lover said:Nuc, Wayne Newton is a NATIVE AMERICAN, so your white analogy fails to apply there. And KarlMarx, Herman Hesse was a GERMAN, and they aren't exactly supportive of our President (maybe that's their revenge for our carpet-bombing their cities after war was all but won)
ScreamingEagle said:Lots of the liberal intellectuals are really into alternative religions or beliefs such as Buddhism. Naturally they don't think presenting such ideas in our schools is is pushing religion or a religious point of view......certainly not like a teacher who keeps a personal copy of the Bible on his desk for personal reading! You know how that can bias students and poison their innocent minds! (end sarcasm)
I think, instead of outright racism, it is more a pushing of MULTICULTURALISM which means anything that is different from the established status quo of our country.....which means anything is accepted as long as it is NOT traditional Christian Americanism.
For any new political power to take over, they must first destroy the status quo.
archangel said:how did "Wayne Newton" get into this conversation? :huh:
Hagbard Celine said:You know, people love to invoke the 'founding fathers' and 'traditional Christian, American values,' but nobody ever stops to think about the people who aren't Christians and the Constitutional right that protects them from having to pledge to a god they don't believe in.
This debate is as stupid as the southern flag debates were. "Under God" was added to the pledge of allegiance during the 1970s to combat the 'godless' Communists. It isn't part of any 'great American traditional values' system!
It's just more Christian-conservative, rightwing, social-architect bullsh*t.
Hagbard Celine said:You know, people love to invoke the 'founding fathers' and 'traditional Christian, American values,' but nobody ever stops to think about the people who aren't Christians and the Constitutional right that protects them from having to pledge to a god they don't believe in.
This debate is as stupid as the southern flag debates were.
If the debate's stupid, don't participate. And if you don't like my Confederate Battle Flag, come get it.
"Under God" was added to the pledge of allegiance during the 1970s to combat the 'godless' Communists. It isn't part of any 'great American traditional values' system!
Go back to school. "Under God" was added in the 50's. If you're going to troll, at least get your facts straight.
It's just more Christian-conservative, rightwing, social-architect bullsh*t.
GunnyL said:He's going to sing ........
Nuc said:Sorry Eagle, Buddhism is not an alternative belief (in regards to Christianity). It predates Christianity and was very popular and established long before Jesus was born. Some scholars think Jesus studied Buddhism at some point, which wouldn't be far fetched as there are some similarities.
Hagbard Celine said:Well GunnyL, I concede that you are right. The "under God" portion of the pledge was added in 1954, right at the tail end of the intellectually explosive McCarthyism era. People were so bright and objective during that time! It almost reminds me of the Salem witch trials.
The Confederate flag stands for intolerance, racism, slavery, and treachery against the United States. It's so BIG of you to back such an exemplary symbol.
The Confederate battle flag known as "the Rebel flag" was not "the" Confederate flag. Talk about soundign like a soundbyte .... "intolerance, racism, slavery and bigotry."
Bullshit. It may stand for those things in the small mind of people such as yourself who no doubt think Southerners should STILL be apologetic for Southerners owning slaves 150 years ago, but it is just a symbol of heritage to most of us who have moved on and gotten with the 21st century.
As for the so-called "Republic of Texas," I can just imagine you sitting alone in a shack in the woods surrounded by automatic weapons. I'll be watching for your eventual standoff with the FBI on CNN.
Goes to show what YOU know, now doesn't it?
Bullshit. It may stand for those things in the small mind of people such as yourself who no doubt think Southerners should STILL be apologetic for Southerners owning slaves 150 years ago, but it is just a symbol of heritage to most of us who have moved on and gotten with the 21st century.
Hagbard Celine said:Wow GunnyL, you've succeeded in shattering me with your rapier wit.
What else would you expect from such stupid specualtion on your part? For me to say: unh unh?
Take a look at my location Gunny. I was born in Alabama and raised in Georgia. It's not about being apologetic about slavery, it's about acknowledging the fact that the Confederate flag is insulting to every black person who sees it. It's like walking around with a big "F*ck you, your opinion doesn't matter" tattooed on your forehead for everybody to see.
Hagbard Celine said:Wow GunnyL, you've succeeded in shattering me with your rapier wit.
Take a look at my location Gunny. I was born in Alabama and raised in Georgia. It's not about being apologetic about slavery, it's about acknowledging the fact that the Confederate flag is insulting to every black person who sees it. It's like walking around with a big "F*ck you, your opinion doesn't matter" tattooed on your forehead for everybody to see.
Hagbard Celine said:Well GunnyL, I concede that you are right. The "under God" portion of the pledge was added in 1954, right at the tail end of the intellectually explosive McCarthyism era. People were so bright and objective during that time! It almost reminds me of the Salem witch trials.
Nuc said:It never ceases to amaze me the incredible power you guys attribute to the ACLU. I happened to pass by their office here yesterday and it's tiny. It was also closed in the middle of the day. They must have supernatural powers to destroy society on the scale you guys give them credit for.
We need to bring back some of that good old McCarthyism. McCarthy was a true patriot.
Hagbard Celine said:McCarthy was a sensationalist and a liar who thrived on fame achieved at the expense of innocent people.
The Real McCarthy Record
by James J. Drummey
I. The Years Before 1950
Q. Was Joseph McCarthy a lax and unethical judge?
For meritorious and efficient performance of duty as an observer and rear gunner of a dive bomber attached to a Marine scout bombing squadron operating in the Solomon Islands area from September 1 to December 31, 1943. He participated in a large number of combat missions, and in addition to his regular duties, acted as aerial photographer. He obtained excellent photographs of enemy gun positions, despite intense anti-aircraft fire, thereby gaining valuable information which contributed materially to the success of subsequent strikes in the area. Although suffering from a severe leg injury, he refused to be hospitalized and continued to carry out his duties as Intelligence Officer in a highly efficient manner. His courageous devotion to duty was in keeping with the highest traditions of the naval service.
Q. Had Joseph McCarthy ever spoken out against communism prior to his famous speech in Wheeling, West Virginia in 1950?
A. Those who contend that McCarthy stumbled across communism while searching for an issue to use in his 1952 re-election campaign will be disappointed to know that the senator had been speaking out against communism for years. He made communism an issue in his campaign against Howard McMurray in 1946, charging that McMurray had received the endorsement of the Daily Worker, the Communist Party newspaper. In April 1947, McCarthy told the Madison Capital Times that his top priority was "to stop the spread of communism."
II. A Lone Senator
(1950-1952)
Q. What was the security situation in the State Department at the time of McCarthy's Wheeling speech in February 1950?
A. Communist infiltration of the State Department began in the 1930s. On September 2, 1939, former communist Whittaker Chambers provided Assistant Secretary of State Adolph Berle with the names and communist connections of two dozen spies in the government, including Alger Hiss. Berle took the information to President Roosevelt, but FDR laughed it off. Hiss moved rapidly up the State Department ladder and served as an adviser to Roosevelt at the disastrous 1945 Yalta Conference that paved the way for the Soviet conquest of Central and Eastern Europe. Hiss also functioned as secretary-general of the founding meeting of the United Nations in San Francisco, helped to draft the UN Charter, and later filled dozens of positions at the UN with American communists before he was publicly exposed as a Soviet spy by Whittaker Chambers in 1948.
The security problem at the State Department had worsened considerably in 1945 when a merger brought into State thousands of employees from such war agencies as the Office of Strategic Services, the Office of War Information, and the Foreign Economic Administration - all of which were riddled with members of the communist underground. J. Anthony Panuch, the State Department official charged with supervising the 1945 merger, told a Senate committee in 1953 that "the biggest single thing that contributed to the infiltration of the State Department was the merger of 1945. The effects of that are still being felt." In 1947, Secretary of State George Marshall and Under Secretary of State Dean Acheson engineered the firing of Panuch and the removal of every key member of his security staff.
In June 1947, a Senate Appropriations subcommittee addressed a secret memorandum to Marshall, calling to his attention
a condition that developed and still flourishes in the State Department under the administration of Dean Acheson. It is evident that there is a deliberate, calculated program being carried out not only to protect communist personnel in high places but to reduce security and intelligence protection to a nullity. On file in the department is a copy of a preliminary report of the FBI on Soviet espionage activities in the United States which involves a large number of State Department employees, some in high official positions.
The memorandum listed the names of nine of these State Department officials and said that they were "only a few of the hundreds now employed in varying capacities who are protected and allowed to remain despite the fact that their presence is an obvious hazard to national security." On June 24, 1947, Assistant Secretary of State John Peurifoy notified the chairman of the Senate subcommittee that ten persons had been dismissed from the department, five of whom had been listed in the memorandum. But from June 1947 until McCarthy's Wheeling speech in February 1950, the State Department did not fire one person as a loyalty or security risk. In other branches of the government, however, more than 300 persons were discharged for loyalty reasons alone during the period from 1947 to 1951.
It was also during the mid-to-late 1940s that communist sympathizers in the State Department played a key role in the subjugation of mainland China by the Reds. "It is my judgment, and I was in the State Department at the time," said former Ambassador William D. Pawley, "that this whole fiasco, the loss of China and the subsequent difficulties with which the United States has been faced, was the result of mistaken policy of Dean Acheson, Phil Jessup, [Owen] Lattimore, John Carter Vincent, John Service, John Davies, [O.E.] Clubb, and others." Asked if he thought the mistaken policy was the result of "sincere mistakes of judgment," Pawley replied: "No, I don't."
Q. Was Joseph McCarthy the only member of Congress critical of those whose policies had put 400 million Chinese into communist slavery?
A. No, there were others who were equally disturbed. For instance, on January 30, 1949, one year before McCarthy's Wheeling speech, a young congressman from Massachusetts deplored "the disasters befalling China and the United States," and declared that "it is of the utmost importance that we search out and spotlight those who must bear the responsibility for our present predicament." The congressman placed a major part of the blame on "a sick Roosevelt," General George Marshall, and "our diplomats and their advisers, the Lattimores and the Fairbanks," and he concluded: "This is the tragic story of China whose freedom we once fought to preserve. What our young men had saved, our diplomats and our President have frittered away." The congressman's name was John F. Kennedy.
Q. What did McCarthy actually say in his Wheeling speech?
A. Addressing the Ohio County Women's Republican Club on February 9, 1950, Senator McCarthy first quoted from Marx, Lenin, and Stalin their stated goal of world conquest and said that "today we are engaged in a final, all-out battle between communistic atheism and Christianity." He blamed the fall of China and other countries to the communists in the previous six years on "the traitorous actions" of the State Department's "bright young men," and he mentioned specifically John S. Service, Gustavo Duran, Mary Jane Keeney, Julian Wadleigh, Dr. Harlow Shapley, Alger Hiss, and Dean Acheson. The part of the speech that catapulted McCarthy from relative obscurity into the national spotlight contained these words:
I have in my hand 57 cases of individuals who would appear to be either card-carrying members or certainly loyal to the Communist Party, but who nevertheless are still helping to shape our foreign policy.
Q. Wasn't it reported that McCarthy used the number 205 in his Wheeling speech, lowered it to 57 later, and then raised it again to 81?
A. Yes, this was reported, and here is the explanation: In the Wheeling speech, McCarthy referred to a letter that Secretary of State James Byrnes sent to Congressman Adolph Sabath in 1946. In that letter, Byrnes said that State Department security investigators had declared 284 persons unfit to hold jobs in the department because of communist connections and other reasons, but that only 79 had been discharged, leaving 205 still on the State Department's payroll. McCarthy told his Wheeling audience that while he did not have the names of the 205 mentioned in the Byrnes letter, he did have the names of 57 who were either members of or loyal to the Communist Party. On February 20, 1950, McCarthy gave the Senate information about 81 individuals - the 57 referred to at Wheeling and 24 others of less importance and about whom the evidence was less conclusive.
The enemies of McCarthy have juggled these numbers around to make the senator appear to be erratic and to distract attention from the paramount question: Were there still persons in the State Department betraying this nation? McCarthy was not being inconsistent in his use of the numbers; the 57 and 81 were part of the 205 mentioned in the Byrnes letter.
Q. Was it fair for McCarthy to make all those names public and ruin reputations?
A. That is precisely why McCarthy did not make the names public. Four times during McCarthy's February 20th speech, Senator Scott Lucas demanded that McCarthy make the 81 names public, but McCarthy refused to do so, responding that "if I were to give all the names involved, it might leave a wrong impression. If we should label one man a communist when he is not a communist, I think it would be too bad." What McCarthy did was to identify the individuals only by case numbers, not by their names.
By the way, it took McCarthy some six hours to make that February 20th speech because of harassment by hostile senators, four of whom - Scott Lucas, Brien McMahon, Garrett Withers, and Herbert Lehman - interrupted him a total of 123 times. It should also be noted that McCarthy was not indicting the entire State Department. He said that "the vast majority of the employees of the State Department are loyal" and that he was only after the ones who had demonstrated a loyalty to the Soviet Union or to the Communist Party.
Further, McCarthy admitted that "some of these individuals whose cases I am giving the Senate are no longer in the State Department. A sizable number of them are not. Some of them have transferred to other government work, work allied with the State Department. Others have been transferred to the United Nations."
Q. What was the purpose of the Tydings Committee?
A. The Tydings Committee was a subcommittee of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that was set up in February 1950 to conduct "a full and complete study and investigation as to whether persons who are disloyal to the United States are, or have been, employed by the Department of State." The chairman of the subcommittee, Senator Millard Tydings, a Democrat, set the tone for the hearings on the first day when he told McCarthy: "You are in the position of being the man who occasioned this hearing, and so far as I am concerned in this committee you are going to get one of the most complete investigations ever given in the history of this Republic, so far as my abilities will permit."
After 31 days of hearings, during which McCarthy presented public evidence on nine persons (Dorothy Kenyon, Haldore Hanson, Philip Jessup, Esther Brunauer, Frederick Schuman, Harlow Shapley, Gustavo Duran, John Stewart Service, and Owen Lattimore), the Tydings Committee labeled McCarthy's charges a "fraud" and a "hoax," said that the individuals on his list were neither communist nor pro-communist, and concluded that the State Department had an effective security program.
Q. Did the Tydings Committee carry out its mandate?
A. Not by a long shot. The Tydings Committee never investigated State Department security at all and did not come close to conducting the "full and complete study and investigation" it was supposed to conduct. Tydings and his Democratic colleagues, Brien McMahon and Theodore Green, subjected McCarthy to considerable interruptions and heckling, prompting Senator Henry Cabot Lodge to protest that McCarthy "never gets a fair shake" in trying to present his evidence in an orderly fashion. So persistent were the interruptions and statements of the Democratic trio during the first two days of the hearings that McCarthy was allowed only a total of 17 and one-half minutes of direct testimony.
While the Democrats were hostile to McCarthy and to any witnesses who could confirm his charges, they fawned over the six individuals who appeared before the committee to deny McCarthy's accusations. Tydings, McMahon, and Green not only treated Philip Jessup like a hero, for one example, but refused to let McCarthy present his full case against Jessup or to cross-examine him. Furthermore, the committee majority declined to call more than 20 witnesses whom Senator Bourke Hickenlooper thought were important to the investigation.
And when Senator Lodge read into the record 19 questions that he thought should be answered before the committee exonerated the State Department's security system, not only did the Democrats ignore the questions, but some member of the committee or the staff deleted from the official transcript of the hearings the 19 questions, as well as other testimony that made the committee look bad. The deleted material amounted to 35 typewritten pages.
It is clear then that the Tydings Committee did not carry out its mandate and that the words "fraud" and "hoax" more accurately describe the Tydings Report than they do McCarthy's charges.
Q. So was McCarthy right or wrong about the State Department?
A. He was right. Of the 110 names that McCarthy gave the Tydings Committee to be investigated, 62 of them were employed by the State Department at the time of the hearings. The committee cleared everyone on McCarthy's list, but within a year the State Department started proceedings against 49 of the 62. By the end of 1954, 81 of those on McCarthy's list had left the government either by dismissal or resignation.
Q. Can you cite some particular examples?
A. Sure. Let's take three of McCarthy's nine public cases - those of John Stewart Service, Philip Jessup, and Owen Lattimore.* Five years before McCarthy mentioned the name of John Stewart Service, Service was arrested for giving classified documents to the editors of Amerasia, a communist magazine. The Truman Administration, however, managed to cover up the espionage scandal and Service was never punished for his crime. McCarthy also produced considerable evidence that Service had been "part of the pro-Soviet group" that wanted to bring communism to China, but the Tydings Committee said that Service was "not disloyal, pro-communist, or a security risk." Over the next 18 months, the State Department's Loyalty Security Board cleared Service four more times, but finally, in December 1951, the Civil Service Commission Loyalty Review Board found that there was "reasonable doubt" as to his loyalty and ousted him from the State Department.
* Evidence presented in the other six cases showed that two (Haldore Hanson and Gustavo Duran) had been identified as members of the Communist Party, that three (Dorothy Kenyon, Frederick Schuman, and Harlow Shapley) had extensive records of joining communist fronts and supporting communist causes, and that one (Esther Brunauer) had sufficient questionable associations to be dismissed from the State Department as a security risk in June 1952. For further details, see chapter seven of McCarthy and His Enemies, by William Buckley and Brent Bozell.
Was the career of Service ruined by this decision? Not on your life. The Supreme Court reinstated him in 1956 and Service was the American consul in Liverpool, England until his retirement in 1962. He then joined the faculty of the University of California-Berkeley and visited Red China in the fall of 1971 at the invitation of communist tyrant Chou En-lai. Following his return from the country he helped to communize, Service wrote four articles for the New York Times and was the subject of a laudatory cover interview in Parade magazine.
As for Philip Jessup, all that Joe McCarthy said was that he had an "unusual affinity for communist causes." The record shows that Jessup belonged to at least five communist-controlled fronts, that he associated closely with communists, and that he was an influential member of the Institute for Pacific Relations (IPR), which the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee (SISS) described in 1952 as "a vehicle used by Communists to orientate American Far Eastern policy toward Communist objectives." The SISS also reported that 46 persons connected with the IPR while Jessup was a leading light there had been named under oath as members of the Communist Party.
The Senate apparently felt that McCarthy was closer to the truth than the Tydings Committee because in 1951 it rejected Jessup's nomination as a delegate to the United Nations. After the Senate adjourned, however, President Truman appointed him anyway. In 1960, President Eisenhower named Jessup to represent the United States on the International Court of Justice, and Jessup served on the World Court until 1969. He died in 1986.
Owen Lattimore was one of the principal architects of the State Department's pro-communist foreign policy in the Far East. In a closed session of the Tydings Committee, Senator McCarthy called Lattimore the "top Russian spy" in the department. (That charge, by the way, was leaked to the public not by McCarthy but by columnist Drew Pearson.) McCarthy later modified his statement on Lattimore, saying that "I may have perhaps placed too much stress on the question of whether or not he has been an espionage agent," and went on to say that "13 different witnesses have testified under oath to Lattimore's Communist membership or party-line activities." Although the Tydings Committee cleared Lattimore of all charges, another Senate committee, the SISS, vindicated Joe McCarthy when it declared in 1952 that "Owen Lattimore was, from some time beginning in the 1930s, a conscious articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy."
Was Lattimore hurt by this or by his subsequent indictment for perjury? Of course not. He continued on the faculty of Johns Hopkins University, went to Communist Outer Mongolia for the Kennedy State Department in 1961, became head of a new Chinese studies department at Leeds University in England in 1963, and returned to the United States in the 1970s for speeches and lectures.
Q. Even if McCarthy was right about Service, Jessup, and Lattimore, weren't there hundreds of others who were publicly smeared by him?
A. This is one of the most enduring myths about McCarthy, and it is completely false. It is a fact, wrote William F. Buckley and Brent Bozell in McCarthy and His Enemies, that from February 9, 1950 until January 1, 1953, Joe McCarthy publicly questioned the loyalty or reliability of a grand total of 46 persons, and particularly dramatized the cases of only 24 of the 46. We have discussed three of the senator's major targets, and Buckley and Bozell pointed out that McCarthy "never said anything more damaging about Lauchlin Currie, Gustavo Duran, Theodore Geiger, Mary Jane Keeney, Edward Posniak, Haldore Hanson, and John Carter Vincent, than that they are known to one or more responsible persons as having been members of the Communist Party, which is in each of these instances true."
