CDZ Three unanswered yet interesting questions pertaining to life

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by sakinago, May 7, 2016.

  1. sakinago
    Offline

    sakinago Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2012
    Messages:
    2,875
    Thanks Received:
    315
    Trophy Points:
    130
    Ratings:
    +1,190
    Yes and yes. The oceans absorbing it part is something our genius climate scientist just recently found out. But do you believe the biggest alarmist on co2 emissions are doing anything real about it?
     
  2. Never3ndr
    Offline

    Never3ndr Silver Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    974
    Thanks Received:
    142
    Trophy Points:
    90
    Ratings:
    +513
    You do realize that humans are animals right? You do realize that we are part of nature. A bird may build a nest, a beaver may build a damn, we may build a city...these are all examples of animals and nature...yet most would argue that the human animal does destroy its environment. Claiming nature is perfect is a belief system built off of watching Bambi too many times.

    If you want specific examples of animals destroying environments all you really have to do is look at the myriad of invasive species as prime examples of animals destroying their environment. You argue that human intervention may offset this balance...but you wouldn't argue if they found some other way to migrate to new areas and cause mass extinction of other species that they may have been "superior" to...you would call it "nature's way of checks and balances." If you have a logic chain you have to apply it in all cases, not just the specific cases that fit your skewed world view. Nature is not perfect. It isn't that Disney movie you have on repeat. Nature is harsh, chaotic, constantly changing, constantly evolving, unforgiving, and ugly. If you want to feed yourself...something has to die (whether you eat plants or eat animals you are killing something else). If you cannot compete with other species in your environment, you die. If you cannot handle the climate or surrounding you live in, you die. Nature is about as harsh as it gets. Your idyllic view of it suggests you haven't actually lived in "nature" enough to actually understand it in the slightest.

    10 Animal Invaders That Are Destroying Habitats
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  3. Asclepias
    Offline

    Asclepias Work Hard Play Hard

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Messages:
    75,187
    Thanks Received:
    6,330
    Trophy Points:
    1,830
    Location:
    Breathing rarified air.
    Ratings:
    +22,027
    Humans are animals that manipulate their environment in harmful ways to themselves and other creatures. No one ever claimed humans were not animals. When we say animals the generally understood concept is that we are excluding humans for comparative reasons.

    Someone should be able to point me to a invasive species not introduced by man that is destroying their environment. We know that is impossible because each animal has its natural niche and only human intervention will mess that up. If a cow had nuts it would be a bull. That fact is that no animal has found another way at least as far as we know. Perfect has nothing to do subjective terms such as chaos, unforgiving, harsh etc etc. Perfect means there is a symmetry that if left alone works.

    Each and everyone of the animals in your link was introduced by humans.
     
  4. sakinago
    Offline

    sakinago Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2012
    Messages:
    2,875
    Thanks Received:
    315
    Trophy Points:
    130
    Ratings:
    +1,190
    So before the age of shipbuilding in humans, I guess animals were introduced across bodies of water by riding on the backs of whales? Or did they just emerge into existence through what's considered statistically impossible by parallel paths of evolution? And how did all of these animals go extinct? Was it always through some cataclysmic event, bc last time I checked those are few and far between. Or was it because of the introduction of some new predator, or competitor? And I guess when animals run short of a food source, they dont migrate to new areas for survival, they just lay down and die? If that's the case then why spread to all corners of the planet?

    Damning is a very destructive act on the environment, so beavers are one of the most destructive animals on the planet. So if they were environmentally conscious as you claim, they would feel remorse for that.

    Bears and Cougars do not hunt bison, bison are too big for Cougars, too quick and big for bears. Wolves occasioanally in a pack would tire out an injured one. Other than that bison aren't regularly hunted in nature.

    And if there would be less cattle without humans, that doesn't seem to be the case in Africa. Also wild horses were a lot more prominent in America before we colonized the land.

    And yes, according to the UNs climate report number they would, if your extrapolating those numbers and applying it to the entire animal population.
     
  5. Never3ndr
    Offline

    Never3ndr Silver Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    974
    Thanks Received:
    142
    Trophy Points:
    90
    Ratings:
    +513
    Each animal has its own natural niche because everything else that overwhelming dominates an animal group or is dominated by it...is eventually eliminated. Usually in quick fashion. The "invasive species" you seem determined to ignore are examples of this being carried out. Your logic would make sense if nature was static. If nothing evolved, if nothing changed. Then you could argue that everything has its perfect niche and have a lot of evidence to support that. However, the evidence isn't even close to being on your side. Where are the dinosaurs? Why isn't there a place for them? Where is the dodo? Why do some things, like the rat, survive and populate itself almost anywhere, where something more specific, like maybe the quala, have to be highly protected as it likely won't be able to prevail in a more competitive environment. It isn't because of humans...it is because of nature. Nature is literally a dog eat dog world. Because that is what works.

    You take some sort of position that doesn't actually have a base by using loosely interpreted language like "symmetry that if left alone works." You do realize that has no real meaning right? What, specifically, is symmetrical about nature. What, specifically, works? What, specifically, is not working in an "unnatural" environment.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  6. sakinago
    Offline

    sakinago Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2012
    Messages:
    2,875
    Thanks Received:
    315
    Trophy Points:
    130
    Ratings:
    +1,190
    Thank you, this conversation was driving me mad. It is this Bambi view of nature that has people applying ONLY balance and beauty, to something that in reality is often more chaotic and very ugly. There is no good death nature. And probably some of the happiest creatures, when you read their cortisol levels, are creatures in captivity at your local zoo.
     
  7. Asclepias
    Offline

    Asclepias Work Hard Play Hard

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Messages:
    75,187
    Thanks Received:
    6,330
    Trophy Points:
    1,830
    Location:
    Breathing rarified air.
    Ratings:
    +22,027
    You are doing a lot of guessing which is my point. You nor anyone else knows. Your assuming life started in a central space and spread out when it just as easily could have started in different spots.

    How is the damning beavers do destructive to the environment? Does it poison the water or something?

    Yes bears and cougars do hunt bison. Did you even check before making this claim?

    How is it not the case in Africa? You do realize there are people in Africa dont you? No there were not wild horses in America before europeans colonized the land.. They were introduced by the Spaniards The last prehistoric horse in North America died out almost 11K years ago. Thats why europeans riding horses looked like gods to the natives. They had never seen it before.
     
  8. Asclepias
    Offline

    Asclepias Work Hard Play Hard

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Messages:
    75,187
    Thanks Received:
    6,330
    Trophy Points:
    1,830
    Location:
    Breathing rarified air.
    Ratings:
    +22,027
    I didnt ignore the invasive species. I pointed out that they were introduced by humans. I never claimed nature was static never evolved or changed. i said it was perfect.

    The dinosaurs evolved and are now birds and reptiles. The dodo was killed off by humans. The rat is highly adaptable to different environments and one of natures strongest survivors along with roaches Nature can be a dog eat dog world. Has nothing to do with the point that its perfect.

    Of course symmetry has meaning. Its a word. You may not like it but that doesnt mean you are convincing when you say it doesnt mean anything.
     
  9. sakinago
    Offline

    sakinago Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2012
    Messages:
    2,875
    Thanks Received:
    315
    Trophy Points:
    130
    Ratings:
    +1,190
    Parallel paths of evolution... that is what you are suggesting by life just popping up in different spots. Go ahed and try to prove that one.

    And yes horses did quite well after they were introduced in the great plains, by themselves...without the help of humans, until the plains were more extensively colonized. And horses did not originate in Europe, they INVASIOUVLY spread from another location...without the help of humans. And yes there are people in Africa. There's also less industrialization and lots of wild cattle like creatures roaming around without humans herding and caring for them.

    As for beavers, look at never ends post, I'm sure his article will answer that.
     
  10. Asclepias
    Offline

    Asclepias Work Hard Play Hard

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Messages:
    75,187
    Thanks Received:
    6,330
    Trophy Points:
    1,830
    Location:
    Breathing rarified air.
    Ratings:
    +22,027
    I think you need to prove life started in one spot before you ask me to prove it didnt.

    Who said horses originated in europe? They originated in north american and spread over the land bridge to europe. Why do you say invasively? What animal did they cause to die out when they spread? When humans reintroduced them into the americas (like you just go through claiming they didnt) the horse did great.

    Cattle like? Youre not making sense. Cattle like doesnt mean cattle. Thats like claiming the Zebra is a horse because its horse like.

    No his article didnt answer that.
     

Share This Page