They said it: Israeli leaders on Palestine

[Saigon]

Caroline -

Are you suggesting Ben Gurion's autobiography is faked?


btw. There are SIX quotes in the OP - no one has yet challenged FIVE of them. Do please try and post honestly.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

Caroline -

Are you suggesting Ben Gurion's autobiography is faked?


btw. There are SIX quotes in the OP - no one has yet challenged FIVE of them. Do please try and post honestly.

I am suggesting antisemites use fake quotes/doctor quotes to make Israel look bad. Happens all the time. Ariel Sharon's quotes weren't fake, as far as I can tell, but the Moshe Dayan and Ben Gurion quotes are often faked/words left out/altered by antisemites. As I said, you started a thread just like this last May.

 

[Saigon]

Caroline -

The fact that some nutcase anti-Semites use fake quotes does not mean that all quotes are faked.

In my experience, fake quotes are usually quite obvious anyway. i.e. Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Certainly I'm not going to stake my life on any of these, but the sites I found them on don't appear to be anti-Semitic, and many of the same quotes appear on reputable sources. The Moshe Dayan one might be questionable, in which case I suggest we ignore it.

None of this answers the question as to why posters on this site argue historical points that their own elected leaders accept.


And yes, I started a thread on Ben Gurion in May. So what?

 

[georgephillip]

"The founding fathers of Zionism were much more honest about what they stood for. Over and over, one word appears in their writing: not national 'liberation,' but 'colonization.'

"Vladimir Jabotinsky, one of the founding fathers of the Zionist movement, wrote in 1923:

"[It is the] iron law of every colonizing movement, a law which knows of no exceptions, a law which existed in all times and under all circumstances.

"If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not 'difficult,' not 'dangerous' but impossible!...

"Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force.

"It is important to build, it is important to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot-or else I am through with playing at colonization."

The Hidden Roots of Zionism

 

[toastman]

George, you're like a broken record

 

[georgephillip]

George, you're like a broken record

Why don't you tell me what you believe that Ze'ev meant by "colonization?"
Please don't omit any relevant "context."

 

[toastman]

George, you're like a broken record

Why don't you tell me what you believe that Ze'ev meant by "colonization?"
Please don't omit any relevant "context."

When I get back home, I will read your link and try to answer as best as I can.

 

[Lipush]

There is no "stolen land". There is "released land".

"In the late 1800s a small, fanatic movement called 'political Zionism' began in Europe.

"Its goal was to create a Jewish state somewhere in the world.

"Its leaders settled on the ancient and long-inhabited land of Palestine for the location of this state.1

"Palestine's population at this time was approximately ninety-six percent non-Jewish (primarily Muslim and Christian)"

Do you agree?

I didn't understand the question

 

[abu afak]

.....

"I don't understand your optimism," Ben-Gurion declared. "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out.
"I'll be seventy years old soon. Well, Nahum, if you asked me whether I shall die and be buried in a Jewish State I would tell you Yes; in ten years, fifteen years, I believe there will still be a Jewish State. But ask me whether my son Amos, who will be fifty at the end of this year, has a chance of dying and being buried in a Jewish State, and I would answer: fifty-fifty."
"But how can you sleep with that prospect in mind and be Prime Minister of Israel too?" I responded.
"Who says I sleep?" was Ben-Gurion's simple reply.

As quoted in The Jewish Paradox : A Personal Memoir (1978) by Nahum Goldmann, as translated by Steve Cox, pp 99-100 ISBN 0-448-15166-9

Why do you ignore Israeli's own president?

So Solly Saigon!
Many of these "Zionist quotes" are Old friends. Including the one you quoted and made your Sig.

May 29, 2008
Goldmann's Questionable Quote
http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/media-monitor/goldmanns-questionable-quote/2008/05/28/

[..........]
Despite the decades he spent in the arena fighting for Jewish causes, Goldmann was a Notorious wild card who Mistook his Own often Idiosyncratic views for the Wisdom of the Ages and who had a penchant for criticizing Israel vociferously and publicly, in fact, the more public his forum, the more vociferous his criticism).

In his 1978 book 'The Jewish Paradox' – a manifesto of wrong-headed thinking about Jews, Israel and the Middle East – Goldmann unloaded a bushel of Shockingly Obtuse and naïve statements, a number of which are given loving prominence in articles on pro-Arab and neo-Nazi websites.

By far the most Notorious is the following eyebrow-raising statement Goldmann claims was made to him by David Ben-Gurion in 1955:

"…. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does it matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it’s true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: We have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?"​

Now, it could be that Ben-Gurion said, word for word, exactly what Goldmann attributed to him. But all sorts of red flags should pop up since
(a) there is NO independent verification of the quote;
(b) the statement jibes perfectly, in Tone and sentiment, with Goldmann’s OWN oft-expressed views;
(c) Goldmann waited some 23 years to make it public; and
(d) Ben-Gurion, conveniently dead for 5 years at the time of the book’s publication, was in no position to acknowledge or deny Goldmann’s veracity....
-

The 'quote' is almost comically blatant, Sure "we have taken their country" because "Sure, God gave it to us".
No, I don't think so.
The bravado Goldmann (83 yrs old at publication) attributes to Ben Gurion on 23 year old Unverifiable Hearsay is clearly Goldmann's own... playing fast and loose.
Splash II
(the two biggest)

-

 

[georgephillip]

There is no "stolen land". There is "released land".

"In the late 1800s a small, fanatic movement called 'political Zionism' began in Europe.

"Its goal was to create a Jewish state somewhere in the world.

"Its leaders settled on the ancient and long-inhabited land of Palestine for the location of this state.1

"Palestine's population at this time was approximately ninety-six percent non-Jewish (primarily Muslim and Christian)"

Do you agree?

I didn't understand the question

Do you agree 96 out of every 100 inhabitants of the land between the River and the sea were non-Jews when the political movement of Zionism began in Europe in the late 19th century?

 

[Roudy]

Caroline -

Are you suggesting Ben Gurion's autobiography is faked?


btw. There are SIX quotes in the OP - no one has yet challenged FIVE of them. Do please try and post honestly.

5 out of 6 are frauds and one is taken out of context. Whoop de do.

How about we see what some Arab and Palestinian "leaders" have said about this mythical Palestine and Palestinian people (as in its a BIG hoax), and see how they stack up against these fraudulent "Zionist" quotes?

 

[Roudy]

"In the late 1800s a small, fanatic movement called 'political Zionism' began in Europe.

"Its goal was to create a Jewish state somewhere in the world.

"Its leaders settled on the ancient and long-inhabited land of Palestine for the location of this state.1

"Palestine's population at this time was approximately ninety-six percent non-Jewish (primarily Muslim and Christian)"

Do you agree?

I didn't understand the question

Do you agree 96 out of every 100 inhabitants of the land between the River and the sea were non-Jews when the political movement of Zionism began in Europe in the late 19th century?

Nope, Jerusalem had majority Jewish population in the late 1800's.

 

[Roudy]

.....

"I don't understand your optimism," Ben-Gurion declared. "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out.
"I'll be seventy years old soon. Well, Nahum, if you asked me whether I shall die and be buried in a Jewish State I would tell you Yes; in ten years, fifteen years, I believe there will still be a Jewish State. But ask me whether my son Amos, who will be fifty at the end of this year, has a chance of dying and being buried in a Jewish State, and I would answer: fifty-fifty."
"But how can you sleep with that prospect in mind and be Prime Minister of Israel too?" I responded.
"Who says I sleep?" was Ben-Gurion's simple reply.

As quoted in The Jewish Paradox : A Personal Memoir (1978) by Nahum Goldmann, as translated by Steve Cox, pp 99-100 ISBN 0-448-15166-9

Why do you ignore Israeli's own president?

So Solly Saigon!
Many of these "Zionist quotes" are Old friends. Including the one you quoted and made your Sig.

The Jewish Press » » The Goldmann Paradox
Thursday, May 29, 2008
Goldmann's Questionable Quote

[..........]
Despite the decades he spent in the arena fighting for Jewish causes, Goldmann was a Notorious wild card who Mistook his Own often Idiosyncratic views for the Wisdom of the Ages and who had a penchant for criticizing Israel vociferously and publicly, in fact, the more public his forum, the more vociferous his criticism).

In his 1978 book 'The Jewish Paradox' – a manifesto of wrong-headed thinking about Jews, Israel and the Middle East – Goldmann unloaded a bushel of Shockingly Obtuse and naïve statements, a number of which are given loving prominence in articles on pro-Arab and neo-Nazi websites.

By far the most Notorious is the following eyebrow-raising statement Goldmann claims was made to him by David Ben-Gurion in 1955:

"…. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does it matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it’s true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: We have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?"​

Now, it could be that Ben-Gurion said, word for word, exactly what Goldmann attributed to him. But all sorts of red flags should pop up since
(a) there is NO independent verification of the quote;
(b) the statement jibes perfectly, in tone and sentiment, with Goldmann’s OWN oft-expressed views;
(c) Goldmann waited some 23 years to make it public; and
(d) Ben-Gurion, conveniently dead for 5 years at the time of the book’s publication, was in no position to acknowledge or deny Goldmann’s veracity....
-

The quote is almost comically blatant, Sure "we have taken their country" because "Sure, God gave it to us".
No, I don't think so.
The bravado Goldmann (83 yrs old at publication) attributes to Ben Gurion on a 23 year old Unverifiable quote/Hearsay is clearly Goldmann's own... playing fast and loose.
Splash II
(the two biggest)

-

Good job man. Although I don't think it's really going to help, give it a few days and we'll see the same fake quotes posted as assumed "truth" again.

Some trolls think people have all the time in the world to play cat and mouse gotcha games with their lies and false propaganda.

And now for the next act...

Exit stage left! <-----------

 

[georgephillip]

I didn't understand the question

Do you agree 96 out of every 100 inhabitants of the land between the River and the sea were non-Jews when the political movement of Zionism began in Europe in the late 19th century?

Nope, Jerusalem had majority Jewish population in the late 1800's.

Which says nothing about the total ratio of Jew to non-Jew living between the River and the sea in the late 1800s.

 

[MHunterB]

"In the late 1800s a small, fanatic movement called 'political Zionism' began in Europe.

"Its goal was to create a Jewish state somewhere in the world.

"Its leaders settled on the ancient and long-inhabited land of Palestine for the location of this state.1

"Palestine's population at this time was approximately ninety-six percent non-Jewish (primarily Muslim and Christian)"

Do you agree?

I didn't understand the question

Do you agree 96 out of every 100 inhabitants of the land between the River and the sea were non-Jews when the political movement of Zionism began in Europe in the late 19th century?

Why should anyone agree with that: it's not true. Zionism didn't 'begin' in the late 19th C. - nor are Zionist fanatics.

Alison Weir is about as reliable a source of information on Zionism as Henry Ford is on Judaism.

 

[MHunterB]

Do you agree 96 out of every 100 inhabitants of the land between the River and the sea were non-Jews when the political movement of Zionism began in Europe in the late 19th century?

Nope, Jerusalem had majority Jewish population in the late 1800's.

Which says nothing about the total ratio of Jew to non-Jew living between the River and the sea in the late 1800s.

If one realizes what a huge percentage of the total population Jerusalem represented, it makes your 'statistic' exceedingly unlikely to be anywhere near accurate.

But why should anyone believe the filth from a notoriously Jew-hating source like 'IAK' anyway?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

I didn't understand the question

Do you agree 96 out of every 100 inhabitants of the land between the River and the sea were non-Jews when the political movement of Zionism began in Europe in the late 19th century?

Why should anyone agree with that: it's not true. Zionism didn't 'begin' in the late 19th C. - nor are Zionist fanatics.

Alison Weir is about as reliable a source of information on Zionism as Henry Ford is on Judaism.

That ratio seems disjointed. By the late 1800's the two major Aliyot from Russia had already taken place. Also, the Holy Land was not altogether devoid of Jews from 70 CE. There was a great mystical movement in Sefad, and Tiberias was also flourishing during those Diaspora years.

 

[Hoffstra]

We know that Ben-Gurion and other Zionist leaders made racist statements and had racist intentions.

 

[georgephillip]

I didn't understand the question

Do you agree 96 out of every 100 inhabitants of the land between the River and the sea were non-Jews when the political movement of Zionism began in Europe in the late 19th century?

Why should anyone agree with that: it's not true. Zionism didn't 'begin' in the late 19th C. - nor are Zionist fanatics.

Alison Weir is about as reliable a source of information on Zionism as Henry Ford is on Judaism.

Ford's anti-Semitism is well documented:
"In the early 1920s, Ford sponsored a weekly newspaper that published (among many non-controversial articles) strongly anti-Semitic views. At the same time, Ford had a reputation as one of the few major corporations actively hiring black workers, and was not accused of discrimination against Jewish workers or suppliers. He also hired women and handicapped men at a time when doing so was uncommon."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford#The_Dearborn_Independent_and_anti-Semitism

Show me any example of Alison's anti-Semitism.
The fact that Weir takes the time to expose the crimes that squeals like you blindly accept on faith from fanatical Zionists like Yitzhak Shamir makes me think anything you post on the subject is about as reliable as Ford's thoughts on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

"After the war, Bernadotte was unanimously chosen to be the United Nations Security Council mediator in the Arab&#8211;Israeli conflict of 1947&#8211;1948. He was assassinated in Jerusalem in 1948 by the militant Zionist group Lehi while pursuing his official duties. The decision to assassinate him had been taken by Natan Yellin-Mor, Yisrael Eldad and Yitzhak Shamir, who later became Prime Minister of Israel."

Sounds like some fairly fanatical Zionists, to me.
How about you, Squeal?

 

[Roudy]

We know that Ben-Gurion and other Zionist leaders made racist statements and had racist intentions.

Link?