They beheaded that poor Korean...

[NATO AIR]

i defended what i believe to be the real islam that in my experience hundreds of millions of people throughout SE Asia believe in. the islam that is open to the modern world, the islam that is tolerant of other religions, the islam that works for justice in places like chechnya and bosnia, the islam that does not send suicide bombers and cut off innocent people's heads. the islam that has a substantial degree of freedom for women (though not enough for what the prophet Mohammed originally intended) and educates its children for the future.

the islam that isn't self-destructive, violent and evil.

i went to several different mosques throughout indonesia, malaysia, hong kong and singapore. i may have missed a bad one, but i never once heard an imam give a fiery anti-american speech filled with threats of violence and holy war.

same thing w/ American Muslims. the modern Islam, the reformist Islam, not this backwards, self-destructive one in the Middle East.

i condemn what is being done in the name of Islam in Iraq and Saudi Arabia, and what has been done in the past. There is absolutely no excuse for this kindd of inhumane violence. Those who do this are perverts of a religion, not its real represenatives. The middle east is screwed up, and Islam as a reilgion is screwed up right now. the folks in SE Asia and America are by majority utilizing a reformist brand of Islam that renounces these holy wars and all this other crap being spread by hate mongers and mass murderers.

these are not muslims, these people who blow up school buses, restaurants, NGO HQ's, hospitals, murderers of nuns and imams, killers of engineers, scientists and lawyers. MONSTERS!

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by NATO AIR
i defended what i believe to be the real islam that in my experience hundreds of millions of people throughout SE Asia believe in. the islam that is open to the modern world, the islam that is tolerant of other religions, the islam that works for justice in places like chechnya and bosnia, the islam that does not send suicide bombers and cut off innocent people's heads. the islam that has a substantial degree of freedom for women (though not enough for what the prophet Mohammed originally intended) and educates its children for the future.

the islam that isn't self-destructive, violent and evil.

i went to several different mosques throughout indonesia, malaysia, hong kong and singapore. i may have missed a bad one, but i never once heard an imam give a fiery anti-american speech filled with threats of violence and holy war.

same thing w/ American Muslims. the modern Islam, the reformist Islam, not this backwards, self-destructive one in the Middle East.

i condemn what is being done in the name of Islam in Iraq and Saudi Arabia, and what has been done in the past. There is absolutely no excuse for this kindd of inhumane violence. Those who do this are perverts of a religion, not its real represenatives. The middle east is screwed up, and Islam as a reilgion is screwed up right now. the folks in SE Asia and America are by majority utilizing a reformist brand of Islam that renounces these holy wars and all this other crap being spread by hate mongers and mass murderers.

these are not muslims, these people who blow up school buses, restaurants, NGO HQ's, hospitals, murderers of nuns and imams, killers of engineers, scientists and lawyers. MONSTERS!

Perversion of islam as you claim, would be the "evil" practices which are made in its name.

Perversions are modifications which twist original wording or meaning.

If you read the koran, you find the PERVERSION is any understanding of it being a religion of peace.

-Yet you defend it.

It would be more appropriate to acknowledge there are peaceful and kind people practicing the PERVERSION of islam and that Saudi Arabia, the origin of islam, is still terrorism central which is justified by the koran, and the perversions of islam still are vastly outnumbered by true followers acknowledging the religion of terrorism as portrayed in the original texts.

 

[NATO AIR]

new guy i cannot get into this religious debate, as i am not familiar enough with either the koran or the bible.

all i can say is that, for myself, i would not be foolish enough to follow word for word or even the gist of what is written in some book that is claimed to be holy. i, for myself, will follow what is right in my heart and mind. and many muslims, yes, they may be upgrading or revising the koran or other muslim texts to help them fit into modern society and succeed and be good citizens and neighbors in their countries.

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by HGROKIT
try quitting smoking (21 days).

I think I am officially a non-smoker

69 days for me!

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by NATO AIR
new guy i cannot get into this religious debate, as i am not familiar enough with either the koran or the bible.

all i can say is that, for myself, i would not be foolish enough to follow word for word or even the gist of what is written in some book that is claimed to be holy. i, for myself, will follow what is right in my heart and mind. and many Muslims, yes, they may be upgrading or revising the koran or other Muslim texts to help them fit into modern society and succeed and be good citizens and neighbors in their countries.

The problem is that for many of the Muslims of today (that have been educated in Madrases for the last 20 years) the hate they have for non Muslims does emanate from their hearts and minds. They do believe that what they are doing is RIGHT. They don't view mattes the same way as we do so don't expect them to "understand" you when they come knocking on your door looking for you because you are a non-Muslim.

 

[NATO AIR]

understood freeandfun, that is part of our great challenge in waging the war on terror and we must ensure that the next generation of muslims does not recieve that brainwashing.

its chilling to think that the pakistani gov't is packed with fellows who have been brainwashed like this, and they've got nukes!

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by NATO AIR
understood freeandfun, that is part of our great challenge in waging the war on terror and we must ensure that the next generation of muslims does not recieve that brainwashing.

its chilling to think that the pakistani gov't is packed with fellows who have been brainwashed like this, and they've got nukes!

Question, how do you propose we stop this type of education? It's an ongoing threat, including here in the US:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,46610,00.html

 

[NATO AIR]

put provisos on any aid we give to these countries

demand oversight/proof of their education systems

the monsters who became the Taliban originated in pakistani schools like that. we must not let another movement come alive because we sat back and let them teach this hatred.

the UN could give an assist possibly, who knows?

examples

no weapons for Pakistan unless it proves its education system is free of this hate indoctorination

no aid for the Palestinians unless they prove their schools are hate free

no aid for the Jordanians, Saudis, etc etc if they have these kinds of hate schools set up

and also offer full education aid, with American/European Muslim teachers and imams, or ones in the country in question who have recieved Western (or Asian) educations.

one last note, its probably true that a majority of their schools are based in mosques and what not, so we'll need to pressure and provide for reform of their education systems where its taught in actual schools by actual teachers, not mosques

i know its sad we have to fund their school systems too when ours are in such bad shape, but still its something that might work.


any other ideas anyone?

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by NATO AIR
put provisos on any aid we give to these countries

demand oversight/proof of their education systems

the monsters who became the Taliban originated in pakistani schools like that. we must not let another movement come alive because we sat back and let them teach this hatred.

the UN could give an assist possibly, who knows?

examples

no weapons for Pakistan unless it proves its education system is free of this hate indoctorination

no aid for the Palestinians unless they prove their schools are hate free

no aid for the Jordanians, Saudis, etc etc if they have these kinds of hate schools set up

and also offer full education aid, with American/European Muslim teachers and imams, or ones in the country in question who have recieved Western (or Asian) educations.

one last note, its probably true that a majority of their schools are based in mosques and what not, so we'll need to pressure and provide for reform of their education systems where its taught in actual schools by actual teachers, not mosques

i know its sad we have to fund their school systems too when ours are in such bad shape, but still its something that might work.


any other ideas anyone?

How about a CONSTITUTIONAL solution?

 

[NATO AIR]

what do you mean newguy?

if you mean in those countries, well many of them have horrible rule of law as it is, the penetration of effective government is very shallow (that's why groups like Hamas and Hezbollah can take better care of the masses's education, health and social needs and brainwash them further)

please explain though

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by NATO AIR
what do you mean newguy?

if you mean in those countries, well many of them have horrible rule of law as it is, the penetration of effective government is very shallow (that's why groups like Hamas and Hezbollah can take better care of the masses's education, health and social needs and brainwash them further)

please explain though

What would our solution be with respect to our Constitution?

When in foreign lands, why are we taking over and rebuilding?

Why are we giving our money?

Are all of our actions in line with our rules on how our nation should act?

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by NATO AIR
put provisos on any aid we give to these countries

demand oversight/proof of their education systems

the monsters who became the Taliban originated in pakistani schools like that. we must not let another movement come alive because we sat back and let them teach this hatred.

the UN could give an assist possibly, who knows?

examples

no weapons for Pakistan unless it proves its education system is free of this hate indoctorination

no aid for the Palestinians unless they prove their schools are hate free

no aid for the Jordanians, Saudis, etc etc if they have these kinds of hate schools set up

and also offer full education aid, with American/European Muslim teachers and imams, or ones in the country in question who have recieved Western (or Asian) educations.

one last note, its probably true that a majority of their schools are based in mosques and what not, so we'll need to pressure and provide for reform of their education systems where its taught in actual schools by actual teachers, not mosques

i know its sad we have to fund their school systems too when ours are in such bad shape, but still its something that might work.


any other ideas anyone?

Dude, this is what we have been trying to do.
Remember the sanctions against India and Pakistan in the 90's? Didn't work.
Remember NK's agreement to let the UN monitor? Didn't work.
Remember Iran's agreement to let the UN monitor? Didn't work.
Remember Iraq's agreement to let the UN monitor? Didn't work.

We had to got it alone cuz the UN - doesn't work! Nor does sanctions, nor does coercion, nor does anything else.

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by freeandfun1
Dude, this is what we have been trying to do.
Remember the sanctions against India and Pakistan in the 90's? Didn't work.
Remember NK's agreement to let the UN monitor? Didn't work.
Remember Iran's agreement to let the UN monitor? Didn't work.
Remember Iraq's agreement to let the UN monitor? Didn't work.

We had to got it alone cuz the UN - doesn't work! Nor does sanctions, nor does coercion, nor does anything else.

Pretty much what I was thinking. Thanks. :clap1:

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by NewGuy
What would our solution be with respect to our Constitution?

When in foreign lands, why are we taking over and rebuilding?

Why are we giving our money?

Are all of our actions in line with our rules on how our nation should act?

Look man. When our constitution was written, they couldn't conceive of icbms and terrorist nation/states given UN protection by anxious antiamerican euroliberals, eager for an ally against the U.S.

Foreign policy is/has been/ always will be about preemption.

Just In Time (JIT) defense policies are not good enough anymore.

 

[NATO AIR]

okay, i can see the logic there, well if we do it alone, what does doing it alone entail?

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by NATO AIR
okay, i can see the logic there, well if we do it alone, what does doing it alone entail?

Something most Americans are not use to.... sacrafice.

 

[NATO AIR]

i would agree with newguy that we do need to consider the constitution regardless, try to work within the framework it gives us, its literally the backbone of our society and our government

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by NATO AIR
okay, i can see the logic there, well if we do it alone, what does doing it alone entail?

A lot of commitment, dollars, and preferably buyin from other nations who will finally admit that free markets work and that individual rights oriented societies are superior, morally.

 

[freeandfun1]

Going it alone means that the US, seeing what needs to be done, must do what is right. If the rest of the world doesn't want to come along and help us, then we, as a nation, must sacrifice some of our beloved citizens and comforts for a long term betterment of the world.

As the beacon of hope in the world, the US has to do the right thing and fight the war that nobody want to touch. Therefore, our citizens are going to have to sacrifice. We should not ask our WWII aged citizens to sacrifice, as they sacrificed for us at another time in history. It is now up to the new generation, the 20 - 50 somethings. Those of us that have, pretty much, has it pretty easy the last 50 years. We really don't understand what it is like to sacrifice but we better start learning.

 

[NATO AIR]

hopefully i'll be in darfur in three weeks watching NATO/US paratroopers kick the crap out of Sudanese militiamen and stopping the genocide that's been happening there.....

that's the kind of sacrifice we need to be making, letting it be known we're not gonna stand for this kind of tyranny, genocide crap anymore