The unsustainability of "green" energy

[P@triot]

Especially in modern corporate welfare times.

Says the person who vehemently defends Barack Insane Obama for throwing over a trillion dollars at GM, Chrysler, Wall Street, Solyndra, and more.

Mr. Obama had to bailout the rich, not blacks.

I rest my case. The person whining the loudest about "corporate welfare" is the person who supports and defends "corporate welfare" the most.

It's a good thing you already had zero credibility on this board Daniel because your idiotic comments contradicting themselves here would have completely destroyed your credibility if you had had some.

I am not the one whining about welfare for Individuals.

No...you're whining about "corporate welfare" while vehemently defending the most extreme "corporate welfare" ever just because it was done by Barack Insane Obama. This is a prime example of why nobody on this board takes you seriously.

 

[P@triot]

That is a very good thing that you are not allowed to own a fully automatic rifle. I have friends who do legally own such. I would have to assume that you have a mental defect that precludes you from having a license to own such. The Supreme Court has stated that you do not have the right to own such a weapon without demonstrating that you are not a menace to society with such a weapon, and that is the way it will remain.

No...you do not have any friends that own a modern fully automatic weapon, you senile old asshole. They were banned by a federal government with no constitutional authority to do so. Existing full automatic weapons at the time (such as Uzi's, Thompson sub-machine guns, etc.) were rightfully grandfathered in. Your friends might own one of those - but nothing from the 1990's or the 21st Century.

Your ignorance of firearm laws is exceeded only by your ignorance of the U.S. Constitution.

And you are a fucking idiot.

Machine Guns Are Legal: A Practical Guide to Full Auto - The Firearm Blog

I love machine guns. They don’t call the selectors on automatic firearms “fun switches” for nothing, and I have yet to hand off a machine gun to someone and have it not bring a smile to their face (it brings me joy exposing people to full auto for the first time). For the sake of this article, the word “machine gun” will meet the ATF’s definition: Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

The machine gun was invented by American Hiram Maxim, and interestingly enough, the USA is one of the few countries on the planet where regular folks can in fact own a fully automatic firearm. In fact,machine guns have never been illegal in the USA on a federal level. They are heavily regulated, but not illegal at all.

Again dumb ass.....machine guns like Uzi's and Thompson Sub-machine guns are legal. Nobody is arguing that. I said modern from the get-go. The problem is your reading comprehension (which explains why you are an ignorant progressive).

 

[P@triot]

And if the coal companies cease to receive those checks, they will be out of business even more quickly. And the oil companies might make a few less billions.

Really? Show me any coal company that would have gone out of business with a half a BILLION dollar check from Uncle Sam like fucking Solyndra did. Moron.

 

[danielpalos]

Especially in modern corporate welfare times.

Says the person who vehemently defends Barack Insane Obama for throwing over a trillion dollars at GM, Chrysler, Wall Street, Solyndra, and more.

Mr. Obama had to bailout the rich, not blacks.

I rest my case. The person whining the loudest about "corporate welfare" is the person who supports and defends "corporate welfare" the most.

It's a good thing you already had zero credibility on this board Daniel because your idiotic comments contradicting themselves here would have completely destroyed your credibility if you had had some.

I am not the one whining about welfare for Individuals.

No...you're whining about "corporate welfare" while vehemently defending the most extreme "corporate welfare" ever just because it was done by Barack Insane Obama. This is a prime example of why nobody on this board takes you seriously.

I don't whine about welfare for real persons only artificial persons.

 

[bripat9643]

Don't get me wrong - "green" energy is a great concept. But so is cold fusion, automobiles that run on water, and a world without wars. Unfortunately, all of them are absurd pipe-dreams at this time.

The problem with "green" energy is the cost/benefit ratio. You have to spend millions of dollars to get the energy equivalent of a AAA battery (I'm exaggerating obviously but sadly not by a whole lot). Which makes it an unsustainable business venture. The federal government illegally invested half a billion dollars into Solyndra and they still went bankrupt.

Now, the world's largest renewable energy developer is also on the verge of bankruptcy as well. The government needs to get out of the green energy business and allow the private sector to fund all research and development. We're $19 trillion in debt because of illegal nonsense like that, and we can't afford to keep betting on a loser. Some day, technology will advance to the point where green energy will be a viable and brilliant solution. But that time is not now and pumping billions of dollars a year for over 4 decades now has yielded no ROI (and even if it had, it is still unconstitutional and that is all that matters).

World's largest renewable energy developer on verge of bankruptcy

They're on the verge of bankruptcy because they tried to monopolize the industry and bit off more than they could chew, not because of the technology. As usual, you are full of shit.

We are $19 trillion in debt because of these bullshit wars we've been fighting for the last 10 years; our obscene defense budget; corporate welfare in the form of tax breaks; and pieces of shit like Tom Price and Steven Mnuchin wanting to have tax payers pay for their travel expenses.

WE are $19 trillion in debt because of social spending, not because of wars. Military spending is less than 20% of the budget.

All you leftwing cockroaches try to blame our fiscal problems on the military when the real cause is you.

 

[bripat9643]

And if the coal companies cease to receive those checks, they will be out of business even more quickly. And the oil companies might make a few less billions.

ROFL! Utter horseshit. Men have been mining coal for at least 400 years. Do you imagine the government subsidized it 400 years ago?

 

[danielpalos]

That is a very good thing that you are not allowed to own a fully automatic rifle. I have friends who do legally own such. I would have to assume that you have a mental defect that precludes you from having a license to own such. The Supreme Court has stated that you do not have the right to own such a weapon without demonstrating that you are not a menace to society with such a weapon, and that is the way it will remain.

No...you do not have any friends that own a modern fully automatic weapon, you senile old asshole. They were banned by a federal government with no constitutional authority to do so. Existing full automatic weapons at the time (such as Uzi's, Thompson sub-machine guns, etc.) were rightfully grandfathered in. Your friends might own one of those - but nothing from the 1990's or the 21st Century.

Your ignorance of firearm laws is exceeded only by your ignorance of the U.S. Constitution.

And you are a fucking idiot.

Machine Guns Are Legal: A Practical Guide to Full Auto - The Firearm Blog

I love machine guns. They don’t call the selectors on automatic firearms “fun switches” for nothing, and I have yet to hand off a machine gun to someone and have it not bring a smile to their face (it brings me joy exposing people to full auto for the first time). For the sake of this article, the word “machine gun” will meet the ATF’s definition: Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

The machine gun was invented by American Hiram Maxim, and interestingly enough, the USA is one of the few countries on the planet where regular folks can in fact own a fully automatic firearm. In fact,machine guns have never been illegal in the USA on a federal level. They are heavily regulated, but not illegal at all.

Just the right wing being drama queens about gun grabbing?

 

[danielpalos]

Reality just keeps smacking the snowflakes around. That's why they're here rage-weeping. You'd think they'd be used to the pain and humiliation by now.

U.S. Solar Market Insight | SEIA
---
The U.S. installed 2,387 megawatts (MW) of solar PV in Q2 2017 to reach 47.1 gigawatts (GW) of total installed capacity, enough to power 9.1 million American homes. This represents an 8% increase over the same quarter last year, and the industry is poised to install more than 12 GW of solar capacity before the end of 2017.
---

Solar installations always peak in the fourth quarter of each year. Probably has to do with taxes.

What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source?
In 2016, about 4.08 trillion kilowatthours (kWh) of electricity were generated at utility-scale facilities in the United States. About 65% of this electricity generation was from fossil fuels (coal, natural gas, petroleum, and other gases), about 20% was from nuclear energy, and about 15% was from renewable energy sources. The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates that an additional 19 billion kWh (or about 0.02 trillion kWh) of electricity generation was from small-scale solar photovoltaic systems in 2016.

Major energy sources and percent shares of U.S. electricity generation at utility-scale facilities in 2016

• Natural gas = 33.8%
• Coal = 30.4%
• Nuclear = 19.7%
• Renewables (total) = 14.9%
  • Hydropower = 6.5%
  • Wind = 5.6%
  • Biomass = 1.5%
    
  • Solar = 0.9%
  • Geothermal = 0.4%
• Petroleum = 0.6%
• Other gases = 0.3%
• Other nonrenewable sources = 0.3%
• Pumped storage hydroelectricity = -0.2%4

What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)3

Solar, 0.9% of 4.08 trillion kWh, about 36.72 billion kWh of utility scale production plus 19 billion kWh from small scale solar adds up to almost 56 billion kWh in 2016.

The U.S. installed 2,387 megawatts (MW) of solar PV in Q2 2017 to reach 47.1 gigawatts (GW) of total installed capacity,

47.1 GW, or 47,100 MW, or 47,100,000 KW of installed capacity times 8760 hours would produce 412,596,000,000 kWh/year. 412.596 billion kWh versus 56 billion kWh of actual output.
Wow! Even if we assume average installed capacity last year was only 37 GW, that still gives about 17% output versus "installed capacity".

47.1 gigawatts (GW) of total installed capacity, enough to power 9.1 million American homes.

Or about 17% of 9.1 million.

Well yes, that is the present situation. But at the rate that wind and solar are increasing, soon they will be our primary source of energy. Compounding percentages grow rather quickly.

Well yes, that is the present situation.

Yes, one-sixth (or less) of installed capacity is actual output.

But at the rate that wind and solar are increasing, soon they will be our primary source of energy.

Soon? When?

Compounding percentages grow rather quickly.

Only when you're handing out taxpayer checks.

Why any subsidies at all, for the fossil fuel sector?

 

[danielpalos]

Coal
The study singled out the following major subsidies benefiting the coal industry:

• Credit for Production of Nonconventional Fuels (annual subsidy: $14 billion)- IRC Section 45K. This provision provides a tax credit for the production of certain fuels. Qualifying fuels include: oil from shale, tar sands; gas from geopressurized brine, Devonian shale, coal seams, tight formations, biomass, and coal-based synthetic fuels. This credit has historically primarily benefited coal producers.
• Characterizing Coal Royalty Payments as Capital Gains (annual subsidy: $986 million) - IRC Section 631(c). Income from the sale of coal under royalty contract may be treated as a capital gain rather than ordinary income for qualifying individuals. (The 2011 report, "What Would Jefferson Do?: The Historical Role of Federal Subsidies in Shaping America’s Energy Future" calculated this subsidy totaled over $1.3 billion in government tax expenditures from 2000 – 2009.)
• Exclusion of Benefit Payments to Disabled Miners (annual subsidy: $438 million) - 30 U.S.C. 922(c). Disability payments out of the Black Lung Disability Trust Fund are not treated as income to the recipients.
• Exclusion of Alternative Fuels from Fuel Excise Tax (annual subsiy: $343 million) - IRC Section 6426(d). This section applies to liquified petroleum gas (LPG), P-series fuels (defined at 42 U.S.C. 13211(2)), compressed natural gas (CNG), liquefied natural gas (LNG), liquefied hydrogen,3 liquid coal, and liquid hydrocarbon from biomass.
• Other-Fuel Exploration & Development Expensing (annual subsidy: $342 million) - IRC Section 617. Identical provisions as applied to oil and gas (above). Including, for example, the costs of surface stripping, and construction of shafts and tunnels.
• Other-Fuel Excess of Percentage over Cost Depletion (annual subsidy: $323 million)- IRC Section 613. Taxpayers may deduct 10 percent of gross income from coal production.
• Credit for Clean Coal Investment ($186 million)- IRC Sections 48A and 48B. Available for 20 percent of the basis of integrated gasification combined cycle property and 15 percent of the basis for other advanced coal-based generation technologies.
• Special Rules for Mining Reclamation Reserves ($159) - IRC Section 468. This deduction is available for early payments into reserve trusts, with eligibility determined by the Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act and the Solid Waste Management Act. The amounts attributable to mines rather than solid-waste facilities are conservatively assumed to be one-half of the total.
• The Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program ($6.3 billion) - The main structure of the program is to provide low-income households with the means to make their utility payments, the vast majority of which is energy generated by fossil fuels. The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services has tabulated the percentage of households using fossil versus non-fossil heating fuels in 2001, and ELI used the percentage as a proxy for fossil versus non-fossil expenditures for 2002-2008.
• Black Lung Disability Trust Fund ($1 billion) - pays health benefits to coal miners afflicted with pneumoconiosis, a long-term degenerative disease from constant inhalation of coal dust, also known as “black lung.” Created in 1978, it is funded through an excise tax on coal to support a trust fund covering health costs of affected workers, however the tax is not sufficient to cover all costs, and the BLDTF was given “indefinite authority to borrow” from the U.S. General Fund. By the end of FY 2008, the BLDTF had accrued nearly $13 billion in debt. In 2008, Congress partially “bailed out” the BLDTF, which ELI tabulated as a subsidy to coal.

These are subsidies for coal?

Credit for Production of Nonconventional Fuels (annual subsidy: $14 billion)- IRC Section 45K. This provision provides a tax credit for the production of certain fuels. Qualifying fuels include: oil from shale, tar sands; gas from geopressurized brine, Devonian shale, coal seams, tight formations, biomass, and coal-based synthetic fuels....

 

[danielpalos]

Don't get me wrong - "green" energy is a great concept. But so is cold fusion, automobiles that run on water, and a world without wars. Unfortunately, all of them are absurd pipe-dreams at this time.

The problem with "green" energy is the cost/benefit ratio. You have to spend millions of dollars to get the energy equivalent of a AAA battery (I'm exaggerating obviously but sadly not by a whole lot). Which makes it an unsustainable business venture. The federal government illegally invested half a billion dollars into Solyndra and they still went bankrupt.

Now, the world's largest renewable energy developer is also on the verge of bankruptcy as well. The government needs to get out of the green energy business and allow the private sector to fund all research and development. We're $19 trillion in debt because of illegal nonsense like that, and we can't afford to keep betting on a loser. Some day, technology will advance to the point where green energy will be a viable and brilliant solution. But that time is not now and pumping billions of dollars a year for over 4 decades now has yielded no ROI (and even if it had, it is still unconstitutional and that is all that matters).

World's largest renewable energy developer on verge of bankruptcy

They're on the verge of bankruptcy because they tried to monopolize the industry and bit off more than they could chew, not because of the technology. As usual, you are full of shit.

We are $19 trillion in debt because of these bullshit wars we've been fighting for the last 10 years; our obscene defense budget; corporate welfare in the form of tax breaks; and pieces of shit like Tom Price and Steven Mnuchin wanting to have tax payers pay for their travel expenses.

WE are $19 trillion in debt because of social spending, not because of wars. Military spending is less than 20% of the budget.

All you leftwing cockroaches try to blame our fiscal problems on the military when the real cause is you.

We need to audit our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror instead of the Fed.

 

[danielpalos]

And if the coal companies cease to receive those checks, they will be out of business even more quickly. And the oil companies might make a few less billions.

ROFL! Utter horseshit. Men have been mining coal for at least 400 years. Do you imagine the government subsidized it 400 years ago?

Government mines, usually; with slave labor.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Reality just keeps smacking the snowflakes around. That's why they're here rage-weeping. You'd think they'd be used to the pain and humiliation by now.

U.S. Solar Market Insight | SEIA
---
The U.S. installed 2,387 megawatts (MW) of solar PV in Q2 2017 to reach 47.1 gigawatts (GW) of total installed capacity, enough to power 9.1 million American homes. This represents an 8% increase over the same quarter last year, and the industry is poised to install more than 12 GW of solar capacity before the end of 2017.
---

Solar installations always peak in the fourth quarter of each year. Probably has to do with taxes.

What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source?
In 2016, about 4.08 trillion kilowatthours (kWh) of electricity were generated at utility-scale facilities in the United States. About 65% of this electricity generation was from fossil fuels (coal, natural gas, petroleum, and other gases), about 20% was from nuclear energy, and about 15% was from renewable energy sources. The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates that an additional 19 billion kWh (or about 0.02 trillion kWh) of electricity generation was from small-scale solar photovoltaic systems in 2016.

Major energy sources and percent shares of U.S. electricity generation at utility-scale facilities in 2016

• Natural gas = 33.8%
• Coal = 30.4%
• Nuclear = 19.7%
• Renewables (total) = 14.9%
  • Hydropower = 6.5%
  • Wind = 5.6%
  • Biomass = 1.5%
    
  • Solar = 0.9%
  • Geothermal = 0.4%
• Petroleum = 0.6%
• Other gases = 0.3%
• Other nonrenewable sources = 0.3%
• Pumped storage hydroelectricity = -0.2%4

What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)3

Solar, 0.9% of 4.08 trillion kWh, about 36.72 billion kWh of utility scale production plus 19 billion kWh from small scale solar adds up to almost 56 billion kWh in 2016.

The U.S. installed 2,387 megawatts (MW) of solar PV in Q2 2017 to reach 47.1 gigawatts (GW) of total installed capacity,

47.1 GW, or 47,100 MW, or 47,100,000 KW of installed capacity times 8760 hours would produce 412,596,000,000 kWh/year. 412.596 billion kWh versus 56 billion kWh of actual output.
Wow! Even if we assume average installed capacity last year was only 37 GW, that still gives about 17% output versus "installed capacity".

47.1 gigawatts (GW) of total installed capacity, enough to power 9.1 million American homes.

Or about 17% of 9.1 million.

Well yes, that is the present situation. But at the rate that wind and solar are increasing, soon they will be our primary source of energy. Compounding percentages grow rather quickly.

Well yes, that is the present situation.

Yes, one-sixth (or less) of installed capacity is actual output.

But at the rate that wind and solar are increasing, soon they will be our primary source of energy.

Soon? When?

Compounding percentages grow rather quickly.

Only when you're handing out taxpayer checks.

Why any subsidies at all, for the fossil fuel sector?

Why any subsidies at all, for the fossil fuel sector?

Deducting business expenses?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Coal
The study singled out the following major subsidies benefiting the coal industry:

• Credit for Production of Nonconventional Fuels (annual subsidy: $14 billion)- IRC Section 45K. This provision provides a tax credit for the production of certain fuels. Qualifying fuels include: oil from shale, tar sands; gas from geopressurized brine, Devonian shale, coal seams, tight formations, biomass, and coal-based synthetic fuels. This credit has historically primarily benefited coal producers.
• Characterizing Coal Royalty Payments as Capital Gains (annual subsidy: $986 million) - IRC Section 631(c). Income from the sale of coal under royalty contract may be treated as a capital gain rather than ordinary income for qualifying individuals. (The 2011 report, "What Would Jefferson Do?: The Historical Role of Federal Subsidies in Shaping America’s Energy Future" calculated this subsidy totaled over $1.3 billion in government tax expenditures from 2000 – 2009.)
• Exclusion of Benefit Payments to Disabled Miners (annual subsidy: $438 million) - 30 U.S.C. 922(c). Disability payments out of the Black Lung Disability Trust Fund are not treated as income to the recipients.
• Exclusion of Alternative Fuels from Fuel Excise Tax (annual subsiy: $343 million) - IRC Section 6426(d). This section applies to liquified petroleum gas (LPG), P-series fuels (defined at 42 U.S.C. 13211(2)), compressed natural gas (CNG), liquefied natural gas (LNG), liquefied hydrogen,3 liquid coal, and liquid hydrocarbon from biomass.
• Other-Fuel Exploration & Development Expensing (annual subsidy: $342 million) - IRC Section 617. Identical provisions as applied to oil and gas (above). Including, for example, the costs of surface stripping, and construction of shafts and tunnels.
• Other-Fuel Excess of Percentage over Cost Depletion (annual subsidy: $323 million)- IRC Section 613. Taxpayers may deduct 10 percent of gross income from coal production.
• Credit for Clean Coal Investment ($186 million)- IRC Sections 48A and 48B. Available for 20 percent of the basis of integrated gasification combined cycle property and 15 percent of the basis for other advanced coal-based generation technologies.
• Special Rules for Mining Reclamation Reserves ($159) - IRC Section 468. This deduction is available for early payments into reserve trusts, with eligibility determined by the Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act and the Solid Waste Management Act. The amounts attributable to mines rather than solid-waste facilities are conservatively assumed to be one-half of the total.
• The Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program ($6.3 billion) - The main structure of the program is to provide low-income households with the means to make their utility payments, the vast majority of which is energy generated by fossil fuels. The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services has tabulated the percentage of households using fossil versus non-fossil heating fuels in 2001, and ELI used the percentage as a proxy for fossil versus non-fossil expenditures for 2002-2008.
• Black Lung Disability Trust Fund ($1 billion) - pays health benefits to coal miners afflicted with pneumoconiosis, a long-term degenerative disease from constant inhalation of coal dust, also known as “black lung.” Created in 1978, it is funded through an excise tax on coal to support a trust fund covering health costs of affected workers, however the tax is not sufficient to cover all costs, and the BLDTF was given “indefinite authority to borrow” from the U.S. General Fund. By the end of FY 2008, the BLDTF had accrued nearly $13 billion in debt. In 2008, Congress partially “bailed out” the BLDTF, which ELI tabulated as a subsidy to coal.

These are subsidies for coal?

Credit for Production of Nonconventional Fuels (annual subsidy: $14 billion)- IRC Section 45K. This provision provides a tax credit for the production of certain fuels. Qualifying fuels include: oil from shale, tar sands; gas from geopressurized brine, Devonian shale, coal seams, tight formations, biomass, and coal-based synthetic fuels....

coal-based synthetic fuels....

Sounds like something Jimmy Carter did.

 

[danielpalos]

Reality just keeps smacking the snowflakes around. That's why they're here rage-weeping. You'd think they'd be used to the pain and humiliation by now.

U.S. Solar Market Insight | SEIA
---
The U.S. installed 2,387 megawatts (MW) of solar PV in Q2 2017 to reach 47.1 gigawatts (GW) of total installed capacity, enough to power 9.1 million American homes. This represents an 8% increase over the same quarter last year, and the industry is poised to install more than 12 GW of solar capacity before the end of 2017.
---

Solar installations always peak in the fourth quarter of each year. Probably has to do with taxes.

What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source?
In 2016, about 4.08 trillion kilowatthours (kWh) of electricity were generated at utility-scale facilities in the United States. About 65% of this electricity generation was from fossil fuels (coal, natural gas, petroleum, and other gases), about 20% was from nuclear energy, and about 15% was from renewable energy sources. The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates that an additional 19 billion kWh (or about 0.02 trillion kWh) of electricity generation was from small-scale solar photovoltaic systems in 2016.

Major energy sources and percent shares of U.S. electricity generation at utility-scale facilities in 2016

• Natural gas = 33.8%
• Coal = 30.4%
• Nuclear = 19.7%
• Renewables (total) = 14.9%
  • Hydropower = 6.5%
  • Wind = 5.6%
  • Biomass = 1.5%
    
  • Solar = 0.9%
  • Geothermal = 0.4%
• Petroleum = 0.6%
• Other gases = 0.3%
• Other nonrenewable sources = 0.3%
• Pumped storage hydroelectricity = -0.2%4

What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)3

Solar, 0.9% of 4.08 trillion kWh, about 36.72 billion kWh of utility scale production plus 19 billion kWh from small scale solar adds up to almost 56 billion kWh in 2016.

The U.S. installed 2,387 megawatts (MW) of solar PV in Q2 2017 to reach 47.1 gigawatts (GW) of total installed capacity,

47.1 GW, or 47,100 MW, or 47,100,000 KW of installed capacity times 8760 hours would produce 412,596,000,000 kWh/year. 412.596 billion kWh versus 56 billion kWh of actual output.
Wow! Even if we assume average installed capacity last year was only 37 GW, that still gives about 17% output versus "installed capacity".

47.1 gigawatts (GW) of total installed capacity, enough to power 9.1 million American homes.

Or about 17% of 9.1 million.

Well yes, that is the present situation. But at the rate that wind and solar are increasing, soon they will be our primary source of energy. Compounding percentages grow rather quickly.

Well yes, that is the present situation.

Yes, one-sixth (or less) of installed capacity is actual output.

But at the rate that wind and solar are increasing, soon they will be our primary source of energy.

Soon? When?

Compounding percentages grow rather quickly.

Only when you're handing out taxpayer checks.

Why any subsidies at all, for the fossil fuel sector?

Why any subsidies at all, for the fossil fuel sector?

Deducting business expenses?

Nope; the non-fossil fuel sector can do the same.

 

[danielpalos]

Coal
The study singled out the following major subsidies benefiting the coal industry:

• Credit for Production of Nonconventional Fuels (annual subsidy: $14 billion)- IRC Section 45K. This provision provides a tax credit for the production of certain fuels. Qualifying fuels include: oil from shale, tar sands; gas from geopressurized brine, Devonian shale, coal seams, tight formations, biomass, and coal-based synthetic fuels. This credit has historically primarily benefited coal producers.
• Characterizing Coal Royalty Payments as Capital Gains (annual subsidy: $986 million) - IRC Section 631(c). Income from the sale of coal under royalty contract may be treated as a capital gain rather than ordinary income for qualifying individuals. (The 2011 report, "What Would Jefferson Do?: The Historical Role of Federal Subsidies in Shaping America’s Energy Future" calculated this subsidy totaled over $1.3 billion in government tax expenditures from 2000 – 2009.)
• Exclusion of Benefit Payments to Disabled Miners (annual subsidy: $438 million) - 30 U.S.C. 922(c). Disability payments out of the Black Lung Disability Trust Fund are not treated as income to the recipients.
• Exclusion of Alternative Fuels from Fuel Excise Tax (annual subsiy: $343 million) - IRC Section 6426(d). This section applies to liquified petroleum gas (LPG), P-series fuels (defined at 42 U.S.C. 13211(2)), compressed natural gas (CNG), liquefied natural gas (LNG), liquefied hydrogen,3 liquid coal, and liquid hydrocarbon from biomass.
• Other-Fuel Exploration & Development Expensing (annual subsidy: $342 million) - IRC Section 617. Identical provisions as applied to oil and gas (above). Including, for example, the costs of surface stripping, and construction of shafts and tunnels.
• Other-Fuel Excess of Percentage over Cost Depletion (annual subsidy: $323 million)- IRC Section 613. Taxpayers may deduct 10 percent of gross income from coal production.
• Credit for Clean Coal Investment ($186 million)- IRC Sections 48A and 48B. Available for 20 percent of the basis of integrated gasification combined cycle property and 15 percent of the basis for other advanced coal-based generation technologies.
• Special Rules for Mining Reclamation Reserves ($159) - IRC Section 468. This deduction is available for early payments into reserve trusts, with eligibility determined by the Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act and the Solid Waste Management Act. The amounts attributable to mines rather than solid-waste facilities are conservatively assumed to be one-half of the total.
• The Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program ($6.3 billion) - The main structure of the program is to provide low-income households with the means to make their utility payments, the vast majority of which is energy generated by fossil fuels. The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services has tabulated the percentage of households using fossil versus non-fossil heating fuels in 2001, and ELI used the percentage as a proxy for fossil versus non-fossil expenditures for 2002-2008.
• Black Lung Disability Trust Fund ($1 billion) - pays health benefits to coal miners afflicted with pneumoconiosis, a long-term degenerative disease from constant inhalation of coal dust, also known as “black lung.” Created in 1978, it is funded through an excise tax on coal to support a trust fund covering health costs of affected workers, however the tax is not sufficient to cover all costs, and the BLDTF was given “indefinite authority to borrow” from the U.S. General Fund. By the end of FY 2008, the BLDTF had accrued nearly $13 billion in debt. In 2008, Congress partially “bailed out” the BLDTF, which ELI tabulated as a subsidy to coal.

These are subsidies for coal?

Credit for Production of Nonconventional Fuels (annual subsidy: $14 billion)- IRC Section 45K. This provision provides a tax credit for the production of certain fuels. Qualifying fuels include: oil from shale, tar sands; gas from geopressurized brine, Devonian shale, coal seams, tight formations, biomass, and coal-based synthetic fuels....

coal-based synthetic fuels....

Sounds like something Jimmy Carter did.

Mr. Carter dealt with nuclear energy as well.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source?
In 2016, about 4.08 trillion kilowatthours (kWh) of electricity were generated at utility-scale facilities in the United States. About 65% of this electricity generation was from fossil fuels (coal, natural gas, petroleum, and other gases), about 20% was from nuclear energy, and about 15% was from renewable energy sources. The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates that an additional 19 billion kWh (or about 0.02 trillion kWh) of electricity generation was from small-scale solar photovoltaic systems in 2016.

Major energy sources and percent shares of U.S. electricity generation at utility-scale facilities in 2016

• Natural gas = 33.8%
• Coal = 30.4%
• Nuclear = 19.7%
• Renewables (total) = 14.9%
  • Hydropower = 6.5%
  • Wind = 5.6%
  • Biomass = 1.5%
    
  • Solar = 0.9%
  • Geothermal = 0.4%
• Petroleum = 0.6%
• Other gases = 0.3%
• Other nonrenewable sources = 0.3%
• Pumped storage hydroelectricity = -0.2%4

What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)3

Solar, 0.9% of 4.08 trillion kWh, about 36.72 billion kWh of utility scale production plus 19 billion kWh from small scale solar adds up to almost 56 billion kWh in 2016.

The U.S. installed 2,387 megawatts (MW) of solar PV in Q2 2017 to reach 47.1 gigawatts (GW) of total installed capacity,

47.1 GW, or 47,100 MW, or 47,100,000 KW of installed capacity times 8760 hours would produce 412,596,000,000 kWh/year. 412.596 billion kWh versus 56 billion kWh of actual output.
Wow! Even if we assume average installed capacity last year was only 37 GW, that still gives about 17% output versus "installed capacity".

47.1 gigawatts (GW) of total installed capacity, enough to power 9.1 million American homes.

Or about 17% of 9.1 million.

Well yes, that is the present situation. But at the rate that wind and solar are increasing, soon they will be our primary source of energy. Compounding percentages grow rather quickly.

Well yes, that is the present situation.

Yes, one-sixth (or less) of installed capacity is actual output.

But at the rate that wind and solar are increasing, soon they will be our primary source of energy.

Soon? When?

Compounding percentages grow rather quickly.

Only when you're handing out taxpayer checks.

Why any subsidies at all, for the fossil fuel sector?

Why any subsidies at all, for the fossil fuel sector?

Deducting business expenses?

Nope; the non-fossil fuel sector can do the same.

I agree, deducting business expenses isn't a subsidy.

 

[danielpalos]

Well yes, that is the present situation. But at the rate that wind and solar are increasing, soon they will be our primary source of energy. Compounding percentages grow rather quickly.

Well yes, that is the present situation.

Yes, one-sixth (or less) of installed capacity is actual output.

But at the rate that wind and solar are increasing, soon they will be our primary source of energy.

Soon? When?

Compounding percentages grow rather quickly.

Only when you're handing out taxpayer checks.

Why any subsidies at all, for the fossil fuel sector?

Why any subsidies at all, for the fossil fuel sector?

Deducting business expenses?

Nope; the non-fossil fuel sector can do the same.

I agree, deducting business expenses isn't a subsidy.

I believe we should be "sinking costs" into fusion (an energy with a future).

Credit for Production of Nonconventional Fuels (annual subsidy: $14 billion)

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Well yes, that is the present situation.

Yes, one-sixth (or less) of installed capacity is actual output.

But at the rate that wind and solar are increasing, soon they will be our primary source of energy.

Soon? When?

Compounding percentages grow rather quickly.

Only when you're handing out taxpayer checks.

Why any subsidies at all, for the fossil fuel sector?

Why any subsidies at all, for the fossil fuel sector?

Deducting business expenses?

Nope; the non-fossil fuel sector can do the same.

I agree, deducting business expenses isn't a subsidy.

I believe we should be "sinking costs" into fusion (an energy with a future).

Credit for Production of Nonconventional Fuels (annual subsidy: $14 billion)

Soon as you get a working reactor, let me know.

 

[Billo_Really]

WE are $19 trillion in debt because of social spending, not because of wars. Military spending is less than 20% of the budget.

All you leftwing cockroaches try to blame our fiscal problems on the military when the real cause is you.

Bullshit. The military takes 50% of all discretionary spending. These bullshit wars cost us $12 billion a month. At least infrastructure projects put Americans back to work.

 

[Billo_Really]

We need to audit our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror instead of the Fed.

Don't forget the poor. We have a war on them to.